[~EnlightenMe~]

I was reading another post, and not wanting to interrput the thread, decided to put some thoughts down here. I am in a really, really sad and dejected mood tonight. My muscles, nerves, and bones ache and I'm afraid I'm going to get another fibromyalgia flare up.

My therapist told me that he would be there until the end, as you may possibly know if you've read any threads of mine for the last month. He told me this when he was throwing up boundary after boundary, and I was triggered beyond triggerdom, couldn't process my way through a paper bad, and was reacting to my xT's reactions. So, because I still had to work for six weeks, and because I was afraid because I was so discombobulated and devastated emotionally, that I did the unthinkable - I called my xT and said, "I'm taking a therapy vacation for the next six weeks because I don't want to drive you or anyone else crazy anymore." (because I felt him pulling away, I was obsessive about contacting/seeing him) He said, "I think that's a really good reason to take a vacation.",
My therapist had been throwing boundaries around, and I did what I thought he wanted me to do, which was take off. I also took off because I could sense that we both were escalating and it was scary. So, I take off. I call my xT about mid way through to maybe, possibly get some encouragement because I wanted to stay away for six weeks, to prove my independence that he always wanted me to have. I called, and he said, "I'm really busy now, Anti, and I'm tired. What do you want.?" or something to that effect. I basically asked for reassurance, but I only got, I"m really tired now and I need to go see my next patient. I was crushed, I was so, so, so crushed. Here I was trying to stay away, trying not to be a nuisance to him, and trying not to feel what I felt when he kept throwing boundaries at me, and I saw this a me sacrificing my feeling of safety to prove to him that I could be who he wanted me to be. (Of course, this is where I went wrong) So, I was gone, but he was still a huge part of my life. I had such a difficult time while I was away, I was in SO much pain, and was so confused, depressed, angry, etc. that I was going through this and didn't really know why.
When I got back, my T became Sigmund Freud. He tried so desperately to keep me from seeing his emotions. He spoke really slowly to me, like I was deaf or something. I kept waiting for him to start using sign language or something. He was being manipulative, vindictive, and I could feel how much he despised me. I know I project, but I trust this feeling/perception.
He didn't, like other therapists here, tell me that after I terminate that I could come back anytime. In fact, he told me I couldn't on the phone. He told me that I was not making progress, that it was my choice to stay or go, would then say something to push my buttons or that he knew I would protest, and then say, "So is therapy helping you?" I heard, "So, is therapy helping you?" so many ****ing times that it makes me sick. He used at the end of every manipulative stanza of questioning, as if it were a poem. The Poem would have been titled, "How to Get Rid of this *****!" In one month or less.
I read other posts and hear how responsive a lot of people's therapists are, and I know that I had that at one time but can't remember much of it. I just remember the end.
I wonder if my therapist was angry that I took six weeks off. Did he need the money or something? He told me that the reason he thought therapy wasn't helping me was that I needed to either take off from work or take off from therapy. As if it was that easy. Was he that unaware of the depth of my emotions? I did feel like he didn't believe me at times, like he invalidated my emotions at the end. What he did to me at the end was so painful and hurtful. I'll never see him again. I feel like I was the wounded animal hobbling along at the end of the herd trying to keep up, and my xT destroyed me because I was the weakest. The hyenas were laughing on the side, and then took what was left of me. By destroying me, XMachiavelliT became stronger, he terminated me because he could.
I know that it is high time I get over this. I've probably posted a billion posts with the same information in it. I am so alone IRL. I HAVE to go to work, where I don't feel comfortable/safe. I feel like I make a billion idiotic mistakes. I have NO life, I work, come home and go to bed, sit in bed on the computer till the wee hours of the night, dread getting up, get up, force myself to go to work, repeat. This is no life. I have no life. I have no me. I am so empty and sad that someone, anyone would do this to me. I don't think the local psychopath would have done this to me. But my therapist did. How do I deal with that? (rhetorical question) Thanks for allowing me to vent.

[Miswimmy1]

I don't think your therapist needed the money. It is not a very high paying profession and it's the kind of career where you either are fit for it or you aren't.

I'm sorry. This must have been so so so traumatic for you. I get why you said the things you said in my post. I can see why something like that would make it so that you nvr trust again I wish I could hug you in person. U are such a great person and you have so much to give to the world. I'm sorry your t abandoned you like that. It was mean and cruel and harsh.

[KazzaX]

Sounds like that particular T doesn't know which way is up or which way is down! Whenever I read what you write about your T, he reminds me of a place where I used to work and all the other staff HATED their job (I was new, they'd all been there for years). Their hate for their job leaked out of them and onto the clients and you could see it happening a mile away. Sounds like your T either hates his job, or maybe he likes it but is burnt out to the max. Maybe HE needs 6 weeks off! (i dont mean burnt out on you... i mean burn out on his job in general). A lot of Ts end up burning out because they have a huuuuuuge caseload and they overestimate how many clients they can handle at one time. They also do not self care enough to get them through.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

Sounds like that particular T doesn't know which way is up or which way is down! Whenever I read what you write about your T, he reminds me of a place where I used to work and all the other staff HATED their job (I was new, they'd all been there for years). Their hate for their job leaked out of them and onto the clients and you could see it happening a mile away. Sounds like your T either hates his job, or maybe he likes it but is burnt out to the max. Maybe HE needs 6 weeks off! (i dont mean burnt out on you... i mean burn out on his job in general). A lot of Ts end up burning out because they have a huuuuuuge caseload and they overestimate how many clients they can handle at one time. They also do not self care enough to get them through.

Thanks so much for your reply! I hear what you are saying and I know what you mean. I can guess at what my therapist's issues are/was, but I'll never really know. What I do know, is that I'm done letting therapists off the hook with the words, well, they are burned out; well, they are human, etc. I get that they make mistakes, but I put the full onus on the therapists to practice self-care, to know when they are burned out, and to hypervigilantly guard the patient against countertransference. They should be terminated if they majorly traumatize a patient and refuse to own it, refuse to allow any contact. My therapist can take all of this baggage and carry it! I'm already faltering on this opinion and am thinking about erasing, but I'm going to post anyway.

[SallyBrown]

Jeez Louise! You weren't kidding... this guy sounds like he was making it up as he went along.

Note that these are all just my opinion based on my being in situations like this before.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

So, because I still had to work for six weeks, and because I was afraid because I was so discombobulated and devastated emotionally, that I did the unthinkable - I called my xT and said, "I'm taking a therapy vacation for the next six weeks because I don't want to drive you or anyone else crazy anymore." (because I felt him pulling away, I was obsessive about contacting/seeing him) He said, "I think that's a really good reason to take a vacation.",

Were you hoping he might tell you not to take a vacation? I only ask because that's probably what I would have been thinking. I also ask because it may have been what he was expecting, and he was hoping to frustrate you by saying it's a good reason to take a vacation.

Because it's NOT a good reason to take a vacation. I could see a T purposely not gratifying a perceived wish on your part for him to tell you not to take a vacation, but I find his pretending to endorse your reasoning to be off. I think he was hoping to get a rise of you, and failed. This is where it's not therapy anymore, and it's a mind game and a power struggle.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

My therapist had been throwing boundaries around, and I did what I thought he wanted me to do, which was take off. I also took off because I could sense that we both were escalating and it was scary. So, I take off. I call my xT about mid way through to maybe, possibly get some encouragement because I wanted to stay away for six weeks, to prove my independence that he always wanted me to have. I called, and he said, "I'm really busy now, Anti, and I'm tired. What do you want.?" or something to that effect. I basically asked for reassurance, but I only got, I"m really tired now and I need to go see my next patient. I was crushed, I was so, so, so crushed.

That's awful. Of course you were crushed. Nobody wants to hear that under the best of circumstances. T's are human and this happens sometimes, but most would recognize it as a mistake.

Do you think that by proving your independence, you were kind of engaging in this power struggle? It's kind of like you wanted to show him you didn't really need him, and he wanted to show you he didn't really need you. Problem is, only one of you is the patient.

That's really immature and unkind on his part.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

Here I was trying to stay away, trying not to be a nuisance to him, and trying not to feel what I felt when he kept throwing boundaries at me, and I saw this a me sacrificing my feeling of safety to prove to him that I could be who he wanted me to be. (Of course, this is where I went wrong) So, I was gone, but he was still a huge part of my life. I had such a difficult time while I was away, I was in SO much pain, and was so confused, depressed, angry, etc. that I was going through this and didn't really know why.

Yeah, I think you're correct in saying that getting you to be more independent was not his real goal. It might have been the words he used, but his actions are off. He gets it halfway right... he doesn't tell you "no, don't take a vacation", but at the same time pretends to agree with your reasoning. He takes what might have been intended as a tougher approach if he'd said, "I don't think it's appropriate for us to talk in between sessions" (which would still be kind of harsh if you ask me, but at least there would be a point to it), and instead is exasperated and tells you he's tired and doesn't have time. It's like a kid trying to play therapist. "Fine you don't need me, I don't want to talk to you either."

Originally Posted by Antimatter

When I got back, my T became Sigmund Freud. He tried so desperately to keep me from seeing his emotions. He spoke really slowly to me, like I was deaf or something. I kept waiting for him to start using sign language or something. He was being manipulative, vindictive, and I could feel how much he despised me. I know I project, but I trust this feeling/perception.

I doubt he despised you. But I think that while you were away, he decided that his approach to keep you coming back before 6 weeks was up didn't work, and so he hunkered down even more. I don't think he was upset about money -- I think he was upset because he didn't "win", and you didn't come crying back to him. He was certainly sore for some reason.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

He didn't, like other therapists here, tell me that after I terminate that I could come back anytime. In fact, he told me I couldn't on the phone. He told me that I was not making progress, that it was my choice to stay or go,

OMG I hate that so much.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

would then say something to push my buttons or that he knew I would protest, and then say, "So is therapy helping you?" I heard, "So, is therapy helping you?" so many ****ing times that it makes me sick. He used at the end of every manipulative stanza of questioning, as if it were a poem. The Poem would have been titled, "How to Get Rid of this *****!" In one month or less.
I read other posts and hear how responsive a lot of people's therapists are, and I know that I had that at one time but can't remember much of it. I just remember the end.

And that also means you will find a therapist who responds to you in a way that is helpful to you.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

He told me that the reason he thought therapy wasn't helping me was that I needed to either take off from work or take off from therapy.

That makes no sense. I thought he said you had a great reason for taking a vacation. Besides, it makes no sense. Although it pretty clearly points a finger at your taking time off as the source of his nastiness.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

As if it was that easy. Was he that unaware of the depth of my emotions? I did feel like he didn't believe me at times, like he invalidated my emotions at the end. What he did to me at the end was so painful and hurtful. I'll never see him again. I feel like I was the wounded animal hobbling along at the end of the herd trying to keep up, and my xT destroyed me because I was the weakest. The hyenas were laughing on the side, and then took what was left of me. By destroying me, XMachiavelliT became stronger, he terminated me because he could.

I know it probably doesn't seem like this now, but I doubt it was taking pleasure in hurting you that motivated him. It's possible, but I doubt it. What I think is more that putting up narcissistic defenses and nursing his ego were so important to him that he shut off his connection to your feelings. That doesn't really make it better, but I think it does make a difference that he probably isn't reveling with glee in his success. I think he's probably furious, because I don't think that your terminating was what he was hoping for. I think he was hoping you'd submit to his power. By leaving, you did not do that, and he failed.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I know that it is high time I get over this. I've probably posted a billion posts with the same information in it.

Join the club! I'm amazed at how much I'm repeating myself here without realizing it. That's what this sort of thing will do to you.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I am so alone IRL. I HAVE to go to work, where I don't feel comfortable/safe. I feel like I make a billion idiotic mistakes.

I've been making a lot of weird and uncharacteristic mistakes at my job, too. I feel that.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I have NO life, I work, come home and go to bed, sit in bed on the computer till the wee hours of the night, dread getting up, get up, force myself to go to work, repeat. This is no life. I have no life. I have no me.

This is not true. You have a you. You are yourself. xT doesn't own you. He might be taking over your emotions right now, but you have a self, and now that you're not fighting him anymore, you have the time to discover that self.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I am so empty and sad that someone, anyone would do this to me. I don't think the local psychopath would have done this to me. But my therapist did.

The extent to which people can shut out the effect they have on others is remarkable when those people feel threatened enough. It's not because of you. It's because of him.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

How do I deal with that? (rhetorical question) Thanks for allowing me to vent.

[here today]

It doesn't sound like your xT knew what he was doing . . . or trying to do . . .and then he put the onus on you to decide . . .But then when you did, he didn't like the decision, which meant that he was unable to help you, so he told you he was unable to help you. Which OF COURSE you are going to hear as rejection. Why didn't he have some empathy for what your perceptions were bound to be? But . . . that's another issue. He couldn't help you, he treated you poorly in the process, and there's not yet a category that I can find in the therapists' code of ethical violations that this kind of thing falls into. Should be IMHO. But not there (yet) that I can see. Turns out you and he were both right, looks like -- he can't help you.

Here's the main link for the "narcissistic defense". As you will see it doesn't mean or imply that you have NPD or anything, just an early injury to your sense of self.

http://modernpsychoanalysis.blogspot...c-defense.html

The "cure" is for the patient to direct their hatred (appropriately, for a baby or toddler) toward the caregiver. I didn't know that but I directed rage at different therapists over the years, believing I was being honest about my feelings, and the therapists "couldn't take it". They reacted in shock or fear. So then I would feel . . . awful . . . plus hopeless . . . plus "this can't work" and leave.

Hence I started doing my own research.

I asked my T again today if she knew about the narcissistic defense and she said she did. My impression is that she doesn't know as much as I do, but . . . we talked about it a little and I feel pretty sure she understands enough that we can make our way through it. We'll see. She's a specialist in dissociative disorders . . .we've kind of got that part nailed down and I asked if I needed to see another specialist for the PDNOS. She said no, so I'm giving her a chance. So far, still progress.

I hope the appointment with your new therapist works out well. Maybe you can take some of what you've posted here so he/she will understand the problem? Some therapists take criticisms of their profession personally, though. Which, to me, means they've got issues so that I wouldn't stay with one like that, with what I know now.

[elliemay]

I just read a hilarious quote online that seems fitting here:

"Sometimes the first step in forgivingness is realizing that other person is batshit crazy".

I think your ex-therapist would certainly fit the bill of crazy - and not the good kind either.

I'm very sorry things played out this way with him.

I had a 3 year streetfight with my therapist. It was god awful. I behaved awfully, but he didn't. He was steadfast and when I was ready to step up, well, he was right there.

I went through some doozies before I found him believe me. I think that little voice in your head that said "take 6 weeks" was likely correct.

No matter how poorly therapy was going with my therapist, there was a little voice in me that always said "stay the course, it sucks but do not give up". With the doozies, well, there was no such voice.

You can recover from this. I know it hurts - how could it not? But you've survived and will continue to do so. This will not break you.

[WikidPissah]

Originally Posted by elliemay

"Sometimes the first step in forgivingness is realizing that other person is batshit crazy".

Now you have an added layer of issues to tackle with your next t. That's just great. If I could rid myself of T baggage I may at some point tackle my original issues.

So sorry you are going thru this...it just sux.

[~EnlightenMe~]

HereToday, Please forgive me but your post was a bit triggering (but helpful) because it reminded me of things my xT would say. I need to work this out, so I hope you have the ego strength to know that I just need to vent and work through this.

I agree, he can't help me. There. I've said it. He can't help me because he doesn't understand, which is okay. I am so SICK to death of hearing about ethical standards, etc. First of all, I have no desire to do anything even if there was a legal ethical breach because I still care about my xT and wish him no harm. I don't get why my xT can't understand that I can feel massive RAGE and it is because I care about someone, NOT because I don't?

What I love here at PC is that this is a place where I can post my most rageful ventings and NOT have to worry about repercussions from therapists' shock or whatever, or have to worry about hurting my therapist's feelings because he becomes defensive at the least hint of criticism, sometimes when It's not criticism,, and sometimes when it's hypercritical and tries to explain events in an intelligent way that he believes excuses him from being present. I'm not buying it. My xT is too good a therapist to continue this behavior and this post would be my therapeutical intervention if I could ever see him again.

You have a few defensive statements in your post which has triggered me, so I apologize in advance, but it is helping me work through stuff from xT, so the defensive statements include:

"Which OF COURSE you are going to hear as rejection"
OF COURSE! I have BPD, right? But seriously, just because I take words like these as rejection has no bearing on my therapist. It's not that he's being a bad therapist or that he is failing at what he is doing. It is my issue that was here before xT. I can't control it, but I feel as if my xT feels as if it is an insult to him. Fears of rejection point to my core issue, NOT an empathic failure. So, when I hear this statement, I feel frustrated because I needed help with feeling rejected, instead I felt like I was rejected because I felt rejected, lol.

Why didn't he have some empathy for what your perceptions were bound to be? But . . . that's another issue
Nice cop-out. Let's see, I'm going to say that xT didn't have empathy and not explain the situation. Or maybe xT won't grant me access to his domain and leave me hanging unresolved. It isn't another issue, it IS the issue. He didn't have empathy possibly because he was as traumatized/confused/discombobulated as I was and that part of him shut down. Or at least it did me. I can't answer this question for him. Ummm, lemme guess. Is it because I was needy and dependent? Was it because he didn't understand me but thought he did? I don't know.


(appropriately, for a baby or toddler)
This is my xT's favorite insult when he can't think of anything else. Been there, done that. I ACCEPT MYSELF FOR WHO I AM. I ACCEPT THAT A PART OF ME IS A CHILD, OR APPROPRIATELY, A BABY OR TODDLER. I welcome this part of me now with open arms. I love myself for who I am now (or am in the process of doing so). I am now heretoforth rendering this accurately perceived slight null and void. I have finally terminated this from my existence. Where it will go now?

My PC Musings
I think that PC is an excellent place to come for support. I frequent other forums just to learn new things, but honestly, I never post on any site but here. This is the only place I belong. I love that people here 'get' that enraged posts are mostly one-sided with the aggrieved party having no say. They may or may not respond in such a manner, or they may be triggered and respond in a similar manner. What we share here really has nothing to do with the therapist (most often), and everything to do with the poster. For example, if one person says that the therapist is a blankety blank, he/she may or may not be, but if the poster is in an upset/enraged position, sometimes de-idealizing the therapist (not devaluing) can help. It has nothing to do with the therapist and everything to do with the poster, which is why we are here. Therapists consult, we consult on PC.

New T
Here Today, you said, :"Some therapists take criticisms of their profession personally, though. Which, to me, means they've got issues so that I wouldn't stay with one like that, with what I know now.

Have you criticized therapists before? How did they act? I don't trust anyone at the moment. This cryptic, foreboding statement has really gotten to me and upset me. I'm this paranoid, that a statement like this makes me wonder if the NewT is going to betray me if I so much as disagree with a therapeutical technique he is using. I don't feel like he would, but being paranoid, I can't be sure.

Okay, Machiavelli, he treated me poorly, but in the end we were both right. For me, the ends didn't justify the means as I'm still traumatized and I still want a relationship back that will never happen. To my xT, the ends did justify the means because he's a free man, no more BPD ***** to deal with. Disclaimer: These are my perceptions born out of anger, and may not be a reflection of reality. I will not be responsible for anything taken personally.

[~EnlightenMe~]

I just read the article on frustration and anger. So do u thi.k my therapist was trying to frustrate me? If so he did a good job. Frustration is one word that aptly describes my experience. This is scary, tho. Its been over a month since termination and about five months of anger and frustration. When does this end? Yhis was not only frustrating but hurtful and painful. I def. Turned my anger inward. I posted this post, the next day wrote a genuine caring letter post, was triggered by thiswhat post asor it reminded me of xt and now am back in the anger frustration mood. Im about ready to lose my mind, I cant sleep nor focus nor remember anything. So how long does this last? What do I do next? I am losing ground and fear that the cure is going to kill me.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I just read the article on frustration and anger. So do u thi.k my therapist was trying to frustrate me? If so he did a good job. Frustration is one word that aptly describes my experience. This is scary, tho. Its been over a month since termination and about five months of anger and frustration. When does this end? Yhis was not only frustrating but hurtful and painful. I def. Turned my anger inward. I posted this post, the next day wrote a genuine caring letter post, was triggered by thiswhat post asor it reminded me of xt and now am back in the anger frustration mood. Im about ready to lose my mind, I cant sleep nor focus nor remember anything. So how long does this last? What do I do next? I am losing ground and fear that the cure is going to kill me.

A month really isn't that long. It may feel like years, but it isn't. You'll make it through this grief.

I think what everyone is trying to say is that this falls right back on your therapist - not you. He did this. Not you. He failed you.

It's going to feel like rejection, not because you have or don't have BPD, but because you are HUMAN.

I think what you are experiencing is entirely normal. Anyone would feel this way.

You had some good experiences with your new therapist, try to reconnect with those feelings. There is hope and healing in those feelings.

Look, this is going to be very hard to deal with, a therapist's failing too often becomes our problem - but it is what it is.

You will make it. Keep posting, keep processing. It'll be okay. You'll see.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

HereToday, Please forgive me but your post was a bit triggering (but helpful) because it reminded me of things my xT would say. I need to work this out, so I hope you have the ego strength to know that I just need to vent and work through this.

Would it be helpful for me to respond to some more of your comments? I do have some ego strength at this point, 2.5 years down the road from an experience somewhat similar to yours.

I'm sorry that my post was triggering for you. Thanks for telling me how my post affected you.

Things feel generally much safer here on PC, so I'll be glad to reply to some more of your comments if you would like, if you would try to work through some things. But it sounds like your new T is good guy so maybe we don't want to do it here? Either way is OK with me.

I can see one way that I could have reduced the chance that my post would have been triggering. I could have used more "I" statements and made it more clear that I was writing from my own experience, my own perspective. I very much identified with your situation but of course we are not the same person, not exactly the same situation.

I hope this post will help some. I would certainly repair the damage I caused if I knew how and could do it.

[here today]

With reference to the article on frustration and anger, IMHO I don't think your xT was trying to frustrate you. Frustration a response to the facts of life, a feeling, and when the person first enounters it, the normal response is to "blame" the outside world for not providing what the person wants.

The key for me has been to accept my "rage" response directed outward. But it has definitely not been easy because I don't think a lot of my therapists understood it.

I'm with someone now who does understand, at least partially, at least in a way that we can talk about it. She also understands my frustration with "the system" and my criticisms of the profession. In my experience some therapists are trustworthy, some unfortuately aren't. Also, knowledge about how to help people with some problems is scant -- in its infancy maybe, so I'm not blaming the person of the therapist per se. Nevertheless, they have hurt me. It is what it is. I have to look outward on it some, too, it's not just whether or not I can trust. For me it's both/and. Which has been hard for me to get to, I won't say it hasn't been.

[~EnlightenMe~]

HereToday, I want you to be my therapist for now so I can process all this. I am writing to you as if you were him. I hope this is okay, as you have similar views as my xT.

You said that you would certainly repair the damage if you knew how was what I needed to hear. I feel like I'm so hurt (not blaming me or you)and I have difficulty knowing whether or not you think it was all me. I feel ashamed that I care and give so much creedence to what you think and feel about me but I do. I ruminate about every single little thing that happened, and I guess this is supposed to help me figure out how I was "in danger" and if I find out, it will be filed under things to avoid. Unfortunately, I guess it is safer to for my brain to find any and every single hint of impropriety or incongruency that we had in session to guard against I don't know what, but something of which I'm afraid (abandonment?). I'm telling you my process, but I'm guessing at the reason. I did finally reach an empathic moment on my own, in which I posted a letter from this part of me, which is always here but not always felt.

My last post was indiscernable because I was doing it from my phone. It didn't convey the message I was trying to send, and I apologize for that. I actually found it enlightening. It said that one has to be frustrated to release the anger, is that what you were trying to do? It's happening now, with out you in person. I am frustrated on a daily basis as detailed in my posts. The article said something like the child didn't learn how to release (?) his/her negative emotions, so they turn it inward. Didn't it say that the goal was to articulate how you feel when you are angry instead of turning it inward? I guess I can check that one off. What the website described, feels like me to a T. I didn't get the chance to read how a therapist does this or who does it, and didn't have time to read it in detail but will.

Because my emotions are dissociated, so immediate and intense, I have difficulty getting it all out, as your website so brilliantly detailed. You say that here on PC you feel safe, so you meant as opposed to in real life? This really saddens me and scares me at the same time if I am comprehending it correctly. I don't understand how I'm scary. I'm being sincere and would like for you to tell me how I make you fear me. My emotions never turn into physical actions.

I know that I'm looking at things through a hypervigilant, negative, distrustful lens, and I know that when other people don't understand where I'm coming from,, it's because I'm not in the present (transference). I distrust myself during these times because what I usually use to feel safe, my senses, are not trustworthy at these times. They are distorting things. I have no control over this and it is terrifying. This would be the time that I should trust other people, but I can't for some reason. If I trusted your view of things instead of my own, then I give you power and lose myself. If I trust my view of things instead of yours, there is no power to be had since I don't trust myself. I am walking around looking normal, but inside I am falling apart and horrified.

I can't remember what I'm doing from second to second, my brain has given up on me, I need to be working through things and processing but I don't feel like progress is being made. I had to leave work after being there only a short time because I was on the verge of breaking down and thought it wouldn't be a good venue. I feel like I'm in a traumatized state and that this is not just grief. As your article said, alot of the anger turns inward, and this is true. I am trying to think that I love myself, but it is a lie. I don't. I cause so much chaos and am so clueless at the moment as to how I'm not interacting with you in a healthy (?) manner. (I know you don't like the word appropriate so I used healthy My posts are a feeble effort to figure things out, to figure out why I'm in this position, so I can avoid anything that will get me here again. And coming full circle, my description above of how I ruminate about every little detail, well, those are what end up in my posts.

Thank you for responding to my post the way you did. It felt non-threatening and I was able to hear, process, and comprehend what you said. You told me how you could have changed things and I don't want you to think that you have to change to accommodate me. However, if you are interested in helping me as you have in the past, I need to be able to ask when you said _____, did you mean ____? And I need you to know that these are real questions, not statements. In that absence, I have to rely on my brain to sort the information, and you see how it does that now - not so efficiently. So, I have to trust you to help me comprehend things.

I apologize for my enraged posts and I quadruple apologize if it hurt you. I truly don't want or need to hurt you, I need to understand, because I am understanding very little these days. I admit to feeling misunderstood, and I hope my superfluous post gives you some insight on that. I am unable to process and file what happened between us, and it has left me in a perpetual problem-solving state with continuous compulsive pressure, but no relief in sight.

I want to leave this relationship in good standing, and with resolve. It may be too late and I get how overwhelming I am. I appreciate that you cared enough to help me process and keep an eye on me. I suspect reading what I wrote wasn't thrilling (except for some) and again, I am sorry for hurting you. You do mean the world to me, which unfortunately makes things more painful. Thank you.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by here today

With reference to the article on frustration and anger, IMHO I don't think your xT was trying to frustrate you. Frustration a response to the facts of life, a feeling, and when the person first enounters it, the normal response is to "blame" the outside world for not providing what the person wants.

Yep, that's me.

The key for me has been to accept my "rage" response directed outward. But it has definitely not been easy because I don't think a lot of my therapists understood it.

Did you direct it toward them but they couldn't take it because they didn't understand?

I'm with someone now who does understand, at least partially, at least in a way that we can talk about it. She also understands my frustration with "the system" and my criticisms of the profession. In my experience some therapists are trustworthy, some unfortuately aren't. Also, knowledge about how to help people with some problems is scant -- in its infancy maybe, so I'm not blaming the person of the therapist per se. Nevertheless, they have hurt me. It is what it is. I have to look outward on it some, too, it's not just whether or not I can trust. For me it's both/and. Which has been hard for me to get to, I won't say it hasn't been.

I wish that I could take away your pain, and mine with it. I now understand you more, which is probably due to me asking questions and being able to feel empathy. Not feeling empathy is a protection, but my reactions to the world become negatively skewed. Thanks for explaining this to me. How do we begin to change the profession? I do think that after I get through the rough parts, that I wouldn't mind being an advocate and turning this *&^% into something positive. It sounds like you have battled this for awhile, and I think you are a courageous, kind, and empathic person. You do make a difference. I hope I get to the point where I'm not so unbearable and suspect I will, although it may be paranoia and a break with reality for me at this point. I hope I get to experience my right brain creativity as it is something I look forward to when I'm insane.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

. . . You said that you would certainly repair the damage if you knew how was what I needed to hear. I feel like I'm so hurt (not blaming me or you)and I have difficulty knowing whether or not you think it was all me. I feel ashamed that I care and give so much creedence to what you think and feel about me but I do. I ruminate about every single little thing that happened, and I guess this is supposed to help me figure out how I was "in danger" and if I find out, it will be filed under things to avoid. Unfortunately, I guess it is safer to for my brain to find any and every single hint of impropriety or incongruency that we had in session to guard against I don't know what, but something of which I'm afraid (abandonment?). . .

I think I understand this because it seems to me I've been the same way. But I'll be careful about thinking I understand, it's probably a little different at least in some ways because we're different people. Same is same, but different is OK, too.

. . [The article] said that one has to be frustrated to release the anger, is that what you were trying to do?

No, that is not what I was trying to do. In sending you the link I was trying to "give" you a way to accept the feeling, allow your own feelings of frustration to come through, to come to consciousness and not automatically be redirected against yourself. That's the way it was for me -- the turning against myself was automatic, more like a conditioned response that developed before I had a sense of "I", is how I look at it.

It's happening now, with out you in person. I am frustrated on a daily basis as detailed in my posts. The article said something like the child didn't learn how to release (?) his/her negative emotions, so they turn it inward. Didn't it say that the goal was to articulate how you feel when you are angry instead of turning it inward? I guess I can check that one off. What the website described, feels like me to a T. I didn't get the chance to read how a therapist does this or who does it, and didn't have time to read it in detail but will.

I think that some therapists don't know about it or, if they know, they don't really understand it. . .That's my belief, anyway. So I've asked my current therapist about it twice. I don't want her to take my anger personally but I don't want to have to dismiss it myself, either.

Because my emotions are dissociated, so immediate and intense, I have difficulty getting it all out, as your website so brilliantly detailed. You say that here on PC you feel safe, so you meant as opposed to in real life?

It feels much less risky for me to express myself here than in real life. The risk of me being out-of-line and getting rejected is still here, but somehow with just words on a computer screen -- and maybe not the nonverbals -- I don't feel quite so intensely rejected if that happens. I feel like I want and need social feedback. But in person it tends to discombobulate me. So how do I get it? How do I learn? For right now, I try to do that here -- and sorry if I mess up sometimes but how else am I going to learn? I've been allowing myself to try it here with generally good results. (Don't want to hurt anyone, glad if they let me know.)

This really saddens me and scares me at the same time if I am comprehending it correctly. I don't understand how I'm scary. I'm being sincere and would like for you to tell me how I make you fear me. My emotions never turn into physical actions.

I don't fear you -- I fear FOR you, I guess. The emotional states you describe remind me so much of my own, which seemed so fearful and frought with danger. But I'm still here, getting better, "here today" is about as much as I can deal with.

I know that I'm looking at things through a hypervigilant, negative, distrustful lens,

I understand that place.

and I know that when other people don't understand where I'm coming from,, it's because I'm not in the present (transference). I distrust myself during these times because what I usually use to feel safe, my senses, are not trustworthy at these times. They are distorting things. I have no control over this and it is terrifying. This would be the time that I should trust other people, but I can't for some reason. If I trusted your view of things instead of my own, then I give you power and lose myself.

A very bad outcome. That seems to me the essence of what happens in the narcissistic defense. Involuntarily, I learned to do that in order to keep my mother around and OK, because she was more important to my survival at the time than myself. Yuck. Not true now.

If I trust my view of things instead of yours, there is no power to be had since I don't trust myself. I am walking around looking normal, but inside I am falling apart and horrified.

I can't remember what I'm doing from second to second, my brain has given up on me, I need to be working through things and processing but I don't feel like progress is being made. I had to leave work after being there only a short time because I was on the verge of breaking down and thought it wouldn't be a good venue. I feel like I'm in a traumatized state

I don't know but I'm hoping for you that the original hurt is coming up now, and can therefore be modified. Not easy. I have felt disoriented several times when things like that happened, and just had to hold on. Moment to moment. My theory was that my nervous system would "fix"/integrate itself if my consciousness/anxiety could just hold on. Don't know if that's what helped or not but maybe thinking like that helped me get through it.

and that this is not just grief. As your article said, alot of the anger turns inward, and this is true. I am trying to think that I love myself,

My theory is that the love is "beneath" or "behind" the rage. Stuck, maybe.

but it is a lie. I don't. I cause so much chaos and am so clueless at the moment as to how I'm not interacting with you in a healthy (?) manner.

I am me and you are you and I think that is healthy.

(I know you don't like the word appropriate so I used healthy My posts are a feeble effort to figure things out, to figure out why I'm in this position, so I can avoid anything that will get me here again. And coming full circle, my description above of how I ruminate about every little detail, well, those are what end up in my posts.

Thank you for responding to my post the way you did. It felt non-threatening and I was able to hear, process, and comprehend what you said. You told me how you could have changed things and I don't want you to think that you have to change to accommodate me.

I don't mind changing, if I can. It's part of what I am trying to learn, too.

However, if you are interested in helping me as you have in the past, I need to be able to ask when you said _____, did you mean ____?

I'll try to remember that. If I forget, will you please remind me?

And I need you to know that these are real questions, not statements. In that absence, I have to rely on my brain to sort the information, and you see how it does that now - not so efficiently. So, I have to trust you to help me comprehend things.

I will try . . .probably won't always succeed, though. So it's good you have your own thinking and point of view, too.

I apologize for my enraged posts and I quadruple apologize if it hurt you.

No need for apology, I understand rage.

I truly don't want or need to hurt you, I need to understand, because I am understanding very little these days. I admit to feeling misunderstood, and I hope my superfluous post gives you some insight on that.

Yes, plenty of detail.

I am unable to process and file what happened between us, and it has left me in a perpetual problem-solving state with continuous compulsive pressure, but no relief in sight.

I want to leave this relationship in good standing, and with resolve. It may be too late and I get how overwhelming I am. I appreciate that you cared enough to help me process and keep an eye on me. I suspect reading what I wrote wasn't thrilling (except for some) and again, I am sorry for hurting you. You do mean the world to me, which unfortunately makes things more painful. Thank you.

I'm a little confused here -- I think you are talking to your xT, not an anonymous person on the internet, right? That's OK, you said in the beginning that you wanted to try to process things like this? I hope this has helped.

Hope things will be better for you soon.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by here today

Hope things will be better for you soon.

Wow, thanks so much for being a fill-in for my xT. It gives me a monumental shift in point of view. I finally was able to release some of my emotions and feel better, but drained because I didn't sleep last night. I so wish I could tell my xT this, but it is true for you also, I am so thankful for you, that you, a stranger, have helped shift what I thought was an unshifting view/mood. You'll never know how much this has meant to me. Thanks so much.

[here today]

You're very welcome. Relatively unknown people from my in-person support group helped me, too. I couldn't pay them back, so I'm glad if I can pay it forward.