[tinyrabbit]

I think I know what my T's doing here, but I'm not entirely sure and I was hoping for some input from the lovely, wise folk here at PC.

A while ago, I tried to thank my T for sticking with me and not dropping me while I kept throwing tantrums, threatening to quit and basically acting like an angry, scared cat trying to scratch him to pieces. I find it very hard to say anything positive to my T. Thanks to transference, I believe he'll use it as an excuse to stop trying. This is such an issue for me, my T ended up promising that he won't terminate me the second I showed signs of improvement, as this didn't go without saying.

So it was really hard to thank him and basically admit that I valued what he had done, or not done. I spend a lot of time trying to insist that I don't care and mentally rejecting the fact that I do. And I guess I thought my T would act like I was right to be grateful. He didn't. He shook his head. He said: "No. You need to matter more to yourself." The other day, I said I wanted to thank him for sticking with me but I had remembered what he said, and he seemed to think I had remembered right and I still shouldn't thank him.

I think I get where he's coming from, in that I'm seeing this as some huge favour when really he's just doing his job, and I'm meant to feel entitled to have someone care about me rather than feeling pathetically grateful and thinking I have to thank them so they don't think I'm ungrateful. My dad always said I was ungrateful, which is probably relevant.

Because it makes me uneasy that he's actually making an effort for me and I'm not thanking him for it constantly. I feel like I should thank him all the time. I feel like I'm doing something wrong by not thanking him. I think he's probably right not to let me, but it's freaking me out slightly. I guess I'm afraid he'll turn around one day and say I'm ungrateful. I'm not sure what I'm actually asking here, sorry.

[Freewilled]

I think I understand but not sure how to deal with it. I also find it hard to show thanks because I'm afraid my T will say, "Finally. You're all better now. Good luck." Honestly, I doubt he'd say that, but I feel so messed up inside and I'm afraid he will see my superficial changes and think I'm ok now. I actually have not tried to say thank you quite so bluntly yet, so it's interesting to think my T could potentially react like yours did.....idk how I'd respond to that.

TR,
This sounds like an unresloved issue for you. Do you find yourself excessively thanking others and apologising profusely?
T is doing his job, doing the things he is getting paid to do, I know the temptation is there to thank him. Hell, I thank mine all of the time but she hates it. You know what t is doing but perhaps you need him to confirm it?
You do matter and need to matter to yourself too. I really love your t and how he knows what is right for you
I hope one day you can see that you matter to yourself

[feralkittymom]

The stuff from the past is the stuff from the past. But it doesn't sound like all of this is because of the past. Some of it reminds me of the subtle shifting that good Ts do to minimize the potential inequality of the relationship.

My T never said in response to my thanking him that he was glad he could help me; he always said he was glad he could "be of help to me." It's a subtle difference, but I think very telling. I see what your T said in the same vein.

[sweepy62]

Hi, tr I understand what you are saying, I always thank my t at the end of sessions, but one of my problems as opposed to yours that you want to thank him all the time is, that I want to take care of my t, for instance I ask her all the time if she is fine, or I will in the middle of a session think I am stressing her out with my stuff, so I will change the subject to something funny to make her laugh, I do this frequently and she wont let me, she says I am there to take care of myself and not her, she says it in a nice caring way, kinda like you wanting to thank him all the time, so I do understand you, but I am still trying to figure out the logic of a THERAPIST lol. I might ask her this question of yours when I see her on wed, sorry I cant answer your question with more input.

[BlueSoup]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

Because it makes me uneasy that he's actually making an effort for me and I'm not thanking him for it constantly. I feel like I should thank him all the time. I feel like I'm doing something wrong by not thanking him. I think he's probably right not to let me, but it's freaking me out slightly. I guess I'm afraid he'll turn around one day and say I'm ungrateful. I'm not sure what I'm actually asking here, sorry.

Not sure how to work the whole quote thing but hopefully I did it right

What if you talk about just that and figure out where those feelings come from and how to resolve them? Do you get the urge to thank other people excessively or just your T?

[unaluna]

Applying this totally to myself, I would see it as t not letting me slip into some dissociative state as I leave and say thank you in that child's voice and habit as I had for so long. But my t DID let me say it - he's very laissez-faire! - even though I hated hearing myself do it and told him so. So - it's not THIS present thing he wants to be thanked for - it's some future thing by a future you in a future voice that you haven't even developed yet. It's not a bad thing - it's very Whovian. As for them firing us as soon as we're "better" - that is such a mama bird kicking us out of the nest too soon. Mine I know wanted me to grow up immediately if not sooner. I was constantly threatened with stories of how "in italy, you'd be married by now" (as a young teen).

[tinyrabbit]

Thank you all so much for your replies. My T seems okay with general thanks, as I sometimes say "Thank you," as I'm walking out of a session. He just very specifically wouldn't accept my thanks for not abandoning me when he had the chance to.

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I also find it hard to show thanks because I'm afraid my T will say, "Finally. You're all better now. Good luck." Honestly, I doubt he'd say that, but I feel so messed up inside and I'm afraid he will see my superficial changes and think I'm ok now.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of. It's getting better as my T has repeatedly reassured me that I can come for therapy for as long as I want so long as he's not dead and even when everything is processed I don't have to terminate if I don't want to. He has even told me how long he expects to remain in practice (30 years, apparently).

Thanks to everyone who asked if I find myself excessively thanking people generally. The answer is a resounding yes! And I do think it comes from being told I was ungrateful, which my T says was a lie. I panic if I think people are going to think I'm ungrateful.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

You know what t is doing but perhaps you need him to confirm it?
You do matter and need to matter to yourself too. I really love your t and how he knows what is right for you
I hope one day you can see that you matter to yourself

Thank you MLS. I really love him too. I think you're right that I need him to confirm it.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

My T never said in response to my thanking him that he was glad he could help me; he always said he was glad he could "be of help to me." It's a subtle difference, but I think very telling. I see what your T said in the same vein.

That's really interesting. My T never says anything like that, except once. The first time I ever asked him for an extra session, I called in a crisis state and he said he was working on a session for 10am on Friday and would let me know asap if it was possible - so I knew he had shifted his schedule round somehow to make it happen. I told him he changed the world for me because it was no longer a place where I don't get help when I ask for it, and he said: "It felt really good to be able to do that."

I definitely need to bring this up in my session tomorrow. Thanks everyone. It has helped to bounce this off you all, as ever.

[Asiablue]

It's really difficult to learn the rules of the therapy relationship isn't it? It's hard to have someone help us so much and seem to give us so much, yet we are required to do nothing in return but keep turning up.

Culturally speaking, most of as have grown up to be polite, to be useful to others,to give more than we take, to not be a bother to people etc and then there's our own history where growing up we had to be the one's giving all of ourselves, anything we were given had a payback price. Well, i did, my mother would throw up all the nice or good things she'd done for me in order to guilt me into doing what she wanted. ( "i bought you that bike for your birthday" " i wash and iron your clothes" so you should do this for me)

So when therapists don't allow us to pay back what they've given i think it makes us feel displace, cos it's not the "normal" order of things.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I think I know what my T's doing here, but I'm not entirely sure and I was hoping for some input from the lovely, wise folk here at PC.

A while ago, I tried to thank my T for sticking with me and not dropping me while I kept throwing tantrums, threatening to quit and basically acting like an angry, scared cat trying to scratch him to pieces. I find it very hard to say anything positive to my T. Thanks to transference, I believe he'll use it as an excuse to stop trying. This is such an issue for me, my T ended up promising that he won't terminate me the second I showed signs of improvement, as this didn't go without saying.

So it was really hard to thank him and basically admit that I valued what he had done, or not done. I spend a lot of time trying to insist that I don't care and mentally rejecting the fact that I do. And I guess I thought my T would act like I was right to be grateful. He didn't. He shook his head. He said: "No. You need to matter more to yourself." The other day, I said I wanted to thank him for sticking with me but I had remembered what he said, and he seemed to think I had remembered right and I still shouldn't thank him.

I think I get where he's coming from, in that I'm seeing this as some huge favour when really he's just doing his job, and I'm meant to feel entitled to have someone care about me rather than feeling pathetically grateful and thinking I have to thank them so they don't think I'm ungrateful. My dad always said I was ungrateful, which is probably relevant.

Because it makes me uneasy that he's actually making an effort for me and I'm not thanking him for it constantly. I feel like I should thank him all the time. I feel like I'm doing something wrong by not thanking him. I think he's probably right not to let me, but it's freaking me out slightly. I guess I'm afraid he'll turn around one day and say I'm ungrateful. I'm not sure what I'm actually asking here, sorry.

What if you said "T thank you for sticking with me and not dropping me!" And he replied "you're welcome Tiny Rabbit" ?

He'd be indirectly agreeing with your assessment of yourself as a difficult, pain in the butt, too-demanding client. Instead what he is saying is "Tiny Rabbit, you deserve no less and I wish you knew that." It kind of follows on something you said earlier about him observing that you can't see why he cherishes you as a client.

Where it becomes complicated is that I think you're saying that thanking him is actually a kind of reaching out, a kind of emotional risk taking for you. Instead of saying something angry and testing to see if you can alienate him you're offering your thanks. So it would be nice if he could take that offering from you.

It's sort of like a left-handed compliment ("Wow! Those pants are really slimming--you should wear stuff like that all the time!") except you're both the complimenter and the one being covertly insulted.

I don't think he feels he shouldn't be complimented because he's "just doing his job." I think he won't accept a compliment that implies, however subtly, that you suck. See what happens if you try again to express your gratitude by simply saying something like "Thanks, I really appreciate you."

As an aside, I have no trouble seeing why he'd cherish you as a client. You're awesome. You work so incredibly hard, you have pushed through so much painful stuff, you have persevered through such uncomfortable, awkward and humiliating feelings. You are hellbent on your own healing. You have honoured him with your trust. You have pushed him to be the best therapist he knows how to be. That's pretty amazing.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

A while ago, I tried to thank my T for sticking with me and not dropping me while I kept throwing tantrums, threatening to quit and basically acting like an angry, scared cat trying to scratch him to pieces.

When I read your explanation in this post, I was struck by the idea that you are trying to thank him for what you perceive as how you come across to him. You see your behavior as "throwing tantrums. . .and basically acting like an angry, scared cat trying to scratch him to pieces." He may not see your behavior that way.

I remember when my T used the example of one's own very young child squirming and hitting out at the mother and what does the mother do? The mother holds the child to contain him and give him a sense of safety and control. The mother does not get angry and reject the child, but reaches out and pulls the child onto her lap to care for him. I think it is a natural instinct with those close to us to approach and try to resolve issues because we care and since we are in relationship, the idea of "thanks" is less appropriate because the caring is reciprocal. You don't thank your lover for a kiss, you kiss him back? With a therapist; working with us is helping them to learn, to better understand themselves and others just as we are learning to better understand ourselves and others.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

It's really difficult to learn the rules of the therapy relationship isn't it? It's hard to have someone help us so much and seem to give us so much, yet we are required to do nothing in return but keep turning up.

I can't believe I forgot to make this connection - this is something I've discussed with my T before. It confuses me that my job is just to turn up and expect things from him, because during childhood, the main time in my life when my job should have been to just be me and have my needs met, that isn't what happened. So I don't expect that to happen in therapy either.

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

He'd be indirectly agreeing with your assessment of yourself as a difficult, pain in the butt, too-demanding client.

I am a difficult, pain in the butt, too-demanding client, though! But it's a good point about it being an emotional risk.

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

I don't think he feels he shouldn't be complimented because he's "just doing his job." I think he won't accept a compliment that implies, however subtly, that you suck. See what happens if you try again to express your gratitude by simply saying something like "Thanks, I really appreciate you.

This is a good point. I think rather than trying to give him my thanks as a way of somehow getting his approval or permission, I just need to tell him how I feel. Scary thought. I don't think he's just doing his job, though. Or rather he's doing his job in a way that goes above and beyond what I would expect his job to be. His job is just to sit in the room with me and listen.

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

As an aside, I have no trouble seeing why he'd cherish you as a client. You're awesome. You work so incredibly hard, you have pushed through so much painful stuff, you have persevered through such uncomfortable, awkward and humiliating feelings. You are hellbent on your own healing. You have honoured him with your trust. You have pushed him to be the best therapist he knows how to be. That's pretty amazing.

I am so touched and amazed by this, I can't even tell you. I don't agree, but I really appreciate you saying it - this has given me a boost, so thank you.

You've all really helped

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Perna

When I read your explanation in this post, I was struck by the idea that you are trying to thank him for what you perceive as how you come across to him. You see your behavior as "throwing tantrums. . .and basically acting like an angry, scared cat trying to scratch him to pieces." He may not see your behavior that way.

This is so insightful, thank you. You're exactly right. I know he doesn't see it that way. He said I don't have a template for trusting people and that the scratchiness isn't really to do with me, it's to do with my woundedness, like a cardigan I'm wearing.

Originally Posted by Perna

I remember when my T used the example of one's own very young child squirming and hitting out at the mother and what does the mother do? The mother holds the child to contain him and give him a sense of safety and control. The mother does not get angry and reject the child, but reaches out and pulls the child onto her lap to care for him.

Which is what my parents didn't do, and my T is doing. Huh. Thank you, your post is really, really wise!

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by hankster

Applying this totally to myself, I would see it as t not letting me slip into some dissociative state as I leave and say thank you in that child's voice and habit as I had for so long. But my t DID let me say it - he's very laissez-faire! - even though I hated hearing myself do it and told him so. So - it's not THIS present thing he wants to be thanked for - it's some future thing by a future you in a future voice that you haven't even developed yet. It's not a bad thing - it's very Whovian. As for them firing us as soon as we're "better" - that is such a mama bird kicking us out of the nest too soon. Mine I know wanted me to grow up immediately if not sooner. I was constantly threatened with stories of how "in italy, you'd be married by now" (as a young teen).

Wow. Thanks for this....my mom often told me she couldn't wait for me to leave. Usually yelling at me that when I turned 18, I was to be gone /:

[tinyrabbit]

I talked to my T about this today. He said as far as he was concerned, there wasn't anything to thank him for, it was like thanking him for not throwing me out of the window.

I said it was a bit more like I sat in the window and he resisted the urge to push me...

[Perna]

Originally Posted by hankster

Mine [mother I presume, not therapist] I know wanted me to grow up immediately if not sooner. I was constantly threatened with stories of how "in italy, you'd be married by now" (as a young teen).

Yes, my stepmother was the same, was into responsibility and how "when she was my age. . ." she was already married and raising a child (when I was in college which she was not allowed to attend and she was jealous of my opportunities).

I think it underlines how our beliefs and expectations with T are often from our backstory and looking at that and placing what T is saying alongside how T has acted and what our parent(s) said alongside how they acted and getting everything parallel in our head that way instead of having our emotional wires crossed is a good idea.