[AmysJourney]

I am going to start this thread because I feel I want to vent - but also to read your responses.

I have been here for a couple of weeks now. I love the discussions and I love how helpful everyone on here is and it's so good to read all the different perspectives on things.

But every now and again I want to scream! Especially at one particular thing that comes up daily in many discussions - people being afraid to ask their therapists for what they need. People who think they are too needy. People who are so afraid that they are crossing their T's boundaries. People who think they might be "too much" for their T's and so on. Even I asked once whether I have to "protect" my T from my situation.

It sometimes seems to me that often it's a main focus to keep the T liking us, keep them interested in working with us, keep them invested and on our side etc.. We are afraid of doing certain things, saying certain things, we think about boundaries way too much etc. I have thought a lot about this lately and it always comes back to a fundamental misunderstanding in my opinion:
That T's choose us and not we choose the T.
But don't WE choose a therapist? WE pay them for their work. WE tell them what we need help with. Why do we think this service is so different from anything else we buy with OUR money? If we buy a car and it's faulty, we go back and have no problem asking for our money back or for them to fix it. If we buy food and it's rotten we return it and get a new item. No one would ever call these things "needy" or "crossing boundaries"
But with therapy it feels that a lot of people feel they are at the mercy of their therapists. It even sounds sometimes like the therapists have us on some kind of leash that they can tighten or expand at their discretion.

But shouldn't we feel different? Is it us who feel this way because of our problems or is it really the therapists who enforce these feelings? Are we the victims of the therapists, their boundaries, their world view etc?
Shouldn't we feel much much empowered and feel like respected clients?

I certainly feel like a respected client. I feel that my payment entitles me to certain things in therapy. I am not looking at my T like a paid friend, I look at her like a human being who is trained in helping people. I am not afraid to tell her what I need or want. I email her when I feel like it, I text her when I have something to say and I tell her when I feel she is going in the wrong direction in a session. It's not up to her to decide what it is that I need, it's up to me and her to work together in a way that benefits ME most.
And it hurts me to see that a lot of people feel so afraid of doing or saying what is good for them in fear of the T's reaction...

What are your opinions? Should we treat therapists and their services different than anything else we pay for? (I mean that in the most basic way - of course we are dealing with human beings and their own quirks and characters here.) Should therapists become better at reinforcing a good working relationship or is it all us and we just project our fears unto them?

Fire away, I am very interested in your views and experiences.

I agree that this whole us vs. them mentality seen so often here baffles me. I've never had that kind of fears or relationship with my T either. I don't really go so far as to get into the "I pay him for his srvices so I'm entitled" philosophy though either.

We have a mutually respectful, pleasant, working relationship (I consider it very much my work even moreso than his). I don't hesitate to call or go in for an extra session when I need to. No fear there. No need to please or feel accepted; I know that is already there.

[Daisymay]

I think you are right, Amelia. We should just be open and say what we need to say. Therapy works best when clients feel they can do that and not fear the response. The problem for many people who seek therapy though is that they've had years or a lifetime of not knowing how to make their needs known, not knowing how to ask for what they need and possibly not feeling they are entitled to do that - because of the way they've been mistreated in the past. The past mistreatment, invalidation, resulting in low self-esteem and a poor sense of worth create a fear and mistrust of others hearing us, wanting to hear us or wanting to genuinely help us.

So it can take a while for a skilled and good therapist to gain the trust of a client like that. And even then the trust can waiver at times.

But, yes, we could just jump in the deep end, so to speak and find the therapist is able to deal with us. (Obviously, there are certain boundaries and rules to abide by). For a lot of people, me included, it was (or is) a more gradual creeping towards trust before we finally do it. Then, assuming the therapist is the right one and a good one, it can all be very good and helpful and is probably a major breakthrough for us.

[winter4me]

What you describe is certainly how it "should" be...but people, especially when we are vulnerable, and in a one on one situation without an objective third eye, may "know" how it should be... but this is a unique relationship, and sometimes we are not sure "why" we are going or what we actually need. I, as an example, first went to therapy specifically to learn some relaxation techniques, I was having severe anxiety attacks, I thought I knew why they had returned; I had struggled with this alone for years, I did not think it could be "cured", or even that this person I saw could help me a great deal. It seemed logical to talk to someone, to put this in a "place" because I needed to return to school for two years, and not quit.
So, I go---we start the relaxation thing...it is all very practical---except
Except I freak out (inside only --and astonished because I "never" felt that before) when he closes the door to the room we are in...and I cannot sit any place he would be between me and the door...and my dreams change, I am reeling back through time. I did not ask for this, just for some exercises to relax; and he was only giving me what I asked for-----the room was distorted, Everything became so strange...
A few weeks later, he tells me I am fine, I don't need him, I can do this myself (meanwhile, I have been trying to decide whether to trust him enough to tell him of the weird things that have been going on in my head)----I go to our last meeting and ask him if I didn't think I was ok what would he say....he gets excited, he has a name for me, someone to see, he tells me he thinks he wouldn't handle me very well...he thinks I have a lot of anger (never got angry there, the subject didn't even come up)---
& so it began. Therapy became something so completely different than I expected.
I haven't been now for a long time...and last time was pretty normal...more as you describe, I come in with a problem, we talk, we make a plan...
I am babbling..............................

[AmysJourney]

Originally Posted by Daisymay

I think you are right, Amelia. We should just be open and say what we need to say. Therapy works best when clients feel they can do that and not fear the response. The problem for many people who seek therapy though is that they've had years or a lifetime of not knowing how to make their needs known, not knowing how to ask for what they need and possibly not feeling they are entitled to do that - because of the way they've been mistreated in the past. The past mistreatment, invalidation, resulting in low self-esteem and a poor sense of worth create a fear and mistrust of others hearing us, wanting to hear us or wanting to genuinely help us.

So it can take a while for a skilled and good therapist to gain the trust of a client like that. And even then the trust can waiver at times.

But, yes, we could just jump in the deep end, so to speak and find the therapist is able to deal with us. (Obviously, there are certain boundaries and rules to abide by). For a lot of people, me included, it was (or is) a more gradual creeping towards trust before we finally do it. Then, assuming the therapist is the right one and a good one, it can all be very good and helpful and is probably a major breakthrough for us.

I agree, it often takes time to build the trust and the confidence to ask for what we need or want etc. That is certainly a valid and important aspect in all of this. I was more talking about how many people seem to be so dependent on what the therapist thinks of them and it hurts me that so many are hurting because they feel they are at the mercy of their therapists..

I think it's part of unconscious processes.
Some, not all, who feel that way are actually gaining an emotional pay off by holding those views.
Buys into the 'victim mentality'.

[AmysJourney]

Originally Posted by winter4me

What you describe is certainly how it "should" be...but people, especially when we are vulnerable, and in a one on one situation without an objective third eye, may "know" how it should be... but this is a unique relationship, and sometimes we are not sure "why" we are going or what we actually need. I, as an example, first went to therapy specifically to learn some relaxation techniques, I was having severe anxiety attacks, I thought I knew why they had returned; I had struggled with this alone for years, I did not think it could be "cured", or even that this person I saw could help me a great deal. It seemed logical to talk to someone, to put this in a "place" because I needed to return to school for two years, and not quit.
So, I go---we start the relaxation thing...it is all very practical---except
Except I freak out (inside only --and astonished because I "never" felt that before) when he closes the door to the room we are in...and I cannot sit any place he would be between me and the door...and my dreams change, I am reeling back through time. I did not ask for this, just for some exercises to relax; and he was only giving me what I asked for-----the room was distorted, Everything became so strange...
A few weeks later, he tells me I am fine, I don't need him, I can do this myself (meanwhile, I have been trying to decide whether to trust him enough to tell him of the weird things that have been going on in my head)----I go to our last meeting and ask him if I didn't think I was ok what would he say....he gets excited, he has a name for me, someone to see, he tells me he thinks he wouldn't handle me very well...he thinks I have a lot of anger (never got angry there, the subject didn't even come up)---
& so it began. Therapy became something so completely different than I expected.
I haven't been now for a long time...and last time was pretty normal...more as you describe, I come in with a problem, we talk, we make a plan...
I am babbling..............................

It's okay, babble away :-)
This seems like something painful you went through and something that makes me feel that at that time your Therapist didn't handle the situation very well at all. So you went to therapy, it turns out there are issues you need to deal with and then he refers you to someone else because he thinks he can't work with you - but he also told you you were fine and you didn't need him.. That just is so strange to me. And definitely makes me think that some therapists should not be therapists.
I hope if you ever go again, you'll find someone who respects you as a client..

[A Red Panda]

Sometimes I think it can also just be habit - people aren't used to getting what they need when they ask for it, so it's normal to just not ask it. Plus, a T can terminate the client at any time, just as the client can terminate the T at any time. That would increase the fear for people.... because it would be a rejection of their authentic self, whereas rejection in other situations might not be when they're fully authentic.

[Daisymay]

Quoting Amelia: 'But with therapy it feels that a lot of people feel they are at the mercy of their therapists. It even sounds sometimes like the therapists have us on some kind of leash that they can tighten or expand at their discretion.'

Yes, it does sound like that sometimes. I wonder if it's because this is how significant others treated the person in the past. It becomes what they expect. So they assume, until they discover otherwise, that the therapist will do the same? I don't know - but we repeat patterns in our relationships don't we? Maybe some only see themselves as worthy of being treated in a certain way. They very unconsciously invite that treatment?

[AmysJourney]

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

Sometimes I think it can also just be habit - people aren't used to getting what they need when they ask for it, so it's normal to just not ask it. Plus, a T can terminate the client at any time, just as the client can terminate the T at any time. That would increase the fear for people.... because it would be a rejection of their authentic self, whereas rejection in other situations might not be when they're fully authentic.

I agree with this too, Panda. And I agree that the termination part of therapy can be daunting and frightening. But doesn't that just reinforce the artificial hold the client think that his Therapist has over him? So people are afraid they might lose their support if they ask for something or if they feel "too needy" so they don't and in return they make their T's much more important, much more powerful and themselves much smaller.. I wish it wouldn't be such a big thing for therapists sometimes to have their clients ask for what they need. OR - is it even a big deal for them at all?

[sweepy62]

Wow this is a very good post, I am good about telling her what pisses me off, and when to stop talking about a certain subject, that is why she says she loves that I am straight foward, I told her when I first met her , I prefer to see her weekly and I like wednesdays and early in the day sessions, I like challenges and debates in sessions, and I dont like therapists, who are always referring to some quotes in therapy books, my problem is just admitting I need help and giving in to my feelings of vulnerability with her.

[AmysJourney]

Originally Posted by Daisymay

Quoting Amelia: 'But with therapy it feels that a lot of people feel they are at the mercy of their therapists. It even sounds sometimes like the therapists have us on some kind of leash that they can tighten or expand at their discretion.'

Yes, it does sound like that sometimes. I wonder if it's because this is how significant others treated the person in the past. It becomes what they expect. So they assume, until they discover otherwise, that the therapist will do the same? I don't know - but we repeat patterns in our relationships don't we? Maybe some only see themselves as worthy of being treated in a certain way. They very unconsciously invite that treatment?

I believe you are right with that observation.

[feralkittymom]

People act from where they are psychologically. I don't believe that it is the therapy relationship per se that creates the extreme turmoil some experience: it's the inner psychology of the client (assuming a competent T). The behaviors are part of the unfolding.

Those who don't bring such conditions into therapy create a very different environment unconsciously. Conscious attitudes, intentions, and style of interaction have limited relevance for anyone.

I don't think the population of this board is very representative of therapy clients in general. Otherwise a huge percentage of every T's caseload would involve such extremity; whereas surveys show that "garden variety" depression is the most common diagnosis seen in private practice.

[Freewilled]

I have a problem with this - feeling too needy, "too much" etc. etc. It's part of my problem. I went to see my T to "feel better"....but specific needs escape me. I think people are all at different places when it comes to therapy. Ideally, I would be able to articulate everything inside me just right and with no fear. In fact, when I'm not in the therapy room, I'm much clearer in my mind. But it's like when I get in there it all gets jumbled up. That's my problem and one I need help with. Kind of counterproductive but it is what it is.

Therapists have a tremendous amount of power. They can cause great harm or bring healing. Clients are usually extremely vulnerable people who might tend to doubt being worthy of help or they might feel like a burden or whatever. Not all therapists are good therapists. Some take advantage of this "neediness" that clients might have. And never forget they have the power to terminate at any time for pretty much any reason so the fear is very real. This happened to me and it has damaged me greatly. I ALWAYS felt too needy, too much, too damaged, too repulsive. I ALWAYS worried he would leave me and on and on. He said he would never do that and would always be there as long as I didn't give up. Well, it turned out to not be true. I will never, ever allow myself to be vulnerable like that again or trust like that again. It has hurt way more than helped.

Sometimes I feel judged here because this happened to me. Like it was my fault somehow. I didn't try hard enough or was TOO something, needy, horrible, or whatever. I honestly don't think it was my fault though. I think he got overwhelmed with me and didn't know what to do and made a HUGE mistake in dealing with me.

Therapy can be very damaging for some of us. I'm glad that it works for some people, but for others it's harmful.

[stopdog]

I think of the therapist like any other person I hire to do a job.
I am definitely not needy about a therapist nor am I a victim. I have no idea if I am a respected client or not. I don't usually think about it.
I do, however, think it might not be useful to judge others on how they are or where they are. Telling people what they should or should not do is rarely a successful means of causing change in my experience.

Thanks for posting PuzzleBug. I'm sorry this happened to you. My T totally disrespected me. He severely damaged me by breaking my confidence with someone I know. His words wrecked havoc on my life. He has caused extreme embarrassment and humiliation to me. I did not deserve this. All I did was to try to get help for myself in dealing with some problems I was having and my sadness has only been compounded by my T. So yes, they have power to ruin you. I assure you I did nothing to deserve this kind of treatment. I can't just let it go because I have to face the people he told every day. I don't know why this happened to me. When I confronted my T he just lied about it all as if that was all he had to do - lie. I tried to talk to him about it but to no avail. He abandoned me and left me in a very bad state. I was given NO RESPECT at all!!! I've been crying for almost a year because of what he did to me. I hope no one else will ever have to go through what I did.

[Yearning0723]

With my past long term T, I never had an issue asking for what I needed; she never shamed me for it, often accommodated me, and was very open to me calling or asking for extra sessions. I rarely did, but I definitely didn't fear it, mostly because that T was not of central importance to my life,

With former ED T, I was very aware that our relationship was full of some serious, not okay maternal transference and I knew if I brought it up, she would act more distant towards me instead of always hugging me like she did, so I figured it was in my best interest not to tell her what was going on. I also feared that if she knew how I was seeing her, she might not have the skills to work through it (she probably wouldn't have, actually) and then she would stop seeing me, especially since we had only had a few sessions. She was such an important person in my life that I couldn't let that happen. Also, I was only sixteen, and I wasn't really interested in getting better, just in getting the good feelings that I felt when ED T hugged me. So I wasn't honest with her.

Current T actually does react shamingly when I ask for what I need and reminds me often that she can't provide it or I shouldn't be asking or I should go look for a new T who can give me what I need. So, I am. But my fear with her makes a lot of sense based on the way she has responded to me in the past.

[nottrustin]

This is one issue that is very hard for me. My T has always encouraged me to contact her outside of sessions whenever needed. I have sometimes it has been because of me being in a crisis situation and sometimes it is because of something going on with my children (3 teenagers). I use to call her however, once I called and I could tell she had company. I felt horrible even though she never had an issue with it...so no I email that way I never interrupt her. I sometimes feel like too much of a burden and I will push her away however, after almost 20 years of marriage to an amazing man I still worry about him being overwhelmed and leaving. As far as not telling her how i really feel. I know that I can trust her with anything...she knows things about me that nobody else knows. However, I sometimes worry about being judged and we have discussed it ....she told me really it isn't about her judging me but rather me judging myself..which is amazingly true.

Unfortunately, my relationship with T and everybody in my life come from my childhood. We know all my trust issues come from my dad. I was always daddy's little girl and while he was FAR from the perfect father he was still my dad. He was somebody that should have been there no matter what. However when he left my mom he also left me. He had some contact with my 2 brothers..I on the other hand saw him on Christmas Eve a couple of years and that was it...for years I never saw or heard from my dad...he married somebody who had a teenage son 2 months older me who apparently needed a dad more than I did.... T and I work on trust but to be honest it is hard to change that mind set after so many years (I am in my 40s and he left when I was 12).

Originally Posted by Winterski

Thanks for posting PuzzleBug. I'm sorry this happened to you. My T totally disrespected me. He severely damaged me by breaking my confidence with someone I know. His words wrecked havoc on my life. He has caused extreme embarrassment and humiliation to me. I did not deserve this. All I did was to try to get help for myself in dealing with some problems I was having and my sadness has only been compounded by my T. So yes, they have power to ruin you. I assure you I did nothing to deserve this kind of treatment. I can't just let it go because I have to face the people he told every day. I don't know why this happened to me. When I confronted my T he just lied about it all as if that was all he had to do - lie. I tried to talk to him about it but to no avail. He abandoned me and left me in a very bad state. I was given NO RESPECT at all!!! I've been crying for almost a year because of what he did to me. I hope no one else will ever have to go through what I did.

I am so sorry. I am so angry at these therapists who are unethical and cause so much harm. I have been dealing with this for over six months and it is still so painful. Most people just can't understand how damaging and painful this is. They say, "Oh, just see a new therapist." No, it doesn't work that way. It just isn't that easy. I hope that you can find healing somehow. I believe you can.

[AmysJourney]

Just to make that clear, I wasn't judging anyone who feels afraid of asking their Ts what they want or need or if they feel needy or anything - not at all!
I am sad that for some people it is so difficult and I was wondering whether it's the T or us who cause this. It sometimes distorts the view of how we see therapy when it comes to these issues and I think it's important to hear the different opinions.

Some of these stories you guys shared are very sad and even frightening. Yes, a lot of us are very much dependent on our therapists and I completely understand the fears that a lot of people have.

Still I wonder of how much more we can get out of the therapy experience if a lot of those issues would not be so difficult and how it would be possible to feel more empowered in that relationship.

[stopdog]

I would think sometimes it is the therapist, sometimes it is the client and sometimes it is the pairing.

[nicoleflynn]

As consumers of therapy, we are allowed to say and do....anything; it is up to the therapist to deal with whatever it is. It would be immensely helpful if a client had information about what therapy is like, etc....before they see a t....because at first it is intimidating to speak to a stranger about our "stuff."

[Daisymay]

Nicoleflyne said: 'As consumers of therapy, we are allowed to say and do....anything; it is up to the therapist to deal with whatever it is.'

Yes, (within reason!). They should be able to 'hold' everything and react professionally and helpfully. I'm sure most do. (Though there are bad therapists out there who deal with some of the things their clients say or do in a totally wrong and unhelpful, sometimes damaging, way.)

[HazelGirl]

I know that, for me, I am terrified that I will overwhelm my T if I am honest about what I am going through and what I need. I am afraid of being abandoned (like I was emotionally as a child when I needed something) and of being hated. I do not want my T to start disliking me and yet feel obligated to see me because I pay her. I don't want anyone to feel obligated to be around me or put up with me. And I am afraid that, at my core, I am a horribly bad and evil person and that whenever anyone gets a glimpse of that, they will leave me. So all of that comes into play, mixes with the transference and the attachment feelings, and creates a giant mess of anxiety, push-pull behaviors, and avoidance. And that's what causes me to have problems talking about what I need, feel, or experience.