So as the title states. Am I supposed to be feeling like a fool EVERYTIME I leave therapy or am I or my therapist doing something wrong? Because it seems that during times like today where I share something personal with her, I end up feeling like a fool. Not only that but based on my therapists voice inflection, I am 95% sure she dislikes me and may be afraid of me.

I don't know why this is happening, since last week things looked promising and now I'm thinking that I'd be happy if I never saw this lady again...

[CantExplain]

I think how you leave each session is very important.

I always leave Mr T feeling energised. With Madame T, I often came out worse than I went in. Next time, I will listen to that!

[HazelGirl]

It's possible that your perception is being clouded by transference, but the only way to really know is to ask your T.

[CrimsonBlues]

Hello I_am_pain-

I think your question is very important. If you are feeling foolish every time you leave therapy, or feeling that way often or more often than not I think it's possible that you're not with the best therapist for you. And, you have a strong feeling that your therapist doesn't like you. Yes, there's always the possibility that we could be projecting our feelings onto the therapist-just as we could be doing in any relationship-but it's also possible that you are experiencing intuition about your therapist. You wrote that when you reveal something personal you end up feeling foolish. That tells me it is possible that you aren't receiving clear empathy or understanding. Of course, it's impossible for any of us to know since we aren't there but it's always very possible that you are picking up on something lacking in your therapist as it pertains to your therapy. The only way to possibly to determine if your perceptions are accurate and/or if you are possibly projecting - and possibly to alter things- is to talk to your therapist. If you feel that you want to continue the therapy I would recommend that you tell your therapist what you wrote here. If your therapist is interested in working with you and making things beneficial for you, she will be able to talk openly and without defensiveness to your concerns. That would be a good sign, if she seems willing to talk with you about your perceptions. It could end up that this conversation would lead to a positive direction for your therapy-or to let you know if your therapist is able to hear your concerns-a very important element of knowledge in making a decision on whether this is the right therapist for you. I know it is very difficult to change therapists if that is what you feel is best for you-it's not easy-but it's not always easy to find the right therapist. I wish you well.

[brillskep]

After good therapy, people don't normally feel like fools. This is certainly nothing to be expected and accepted. But they're your feelings, your experience. I wouldn't hurry to call it wrong. If you want to give this therapist a chance, would you consider talking in session about these feelings and fears you have? That might be a good starting point.

I could possibly be that your T really does not like you and can't contain that and you're picking up on that. If that's the case ... then I would think you deserve a better therapist. But it might be worth talking about it, if you want. I wonder if it's your tendency to feel like a fool when you feel disliked or rejected - if so this might be very relevant to your therapy. If not then there's probably something about the therapy that's not working for you.

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlues

Hello I_am_pain-

I think your question is very important. If you are feeling foolish every time you leave therapy, or feeling that way often or more often than not I think it's possible that you're not with the best therapist for you. And, you have a strong feeling that your therapist doesn't like you. Yes, there's always the possibility that we could be projecting our feelings onto the therapist-just as we could be doing in any relationship-but it's also possible that you are experiencing intuition about your therapist. You wrote that when you reveal something personal you end up feeling foolish. That tells me it is possible that you aren't receiving clear empathy or understanding. Of course, it's impossible for any of us to know since we aren't there but it's always very possible that you are picking up on something lacking in your therapist as it pertains to your therapy. The only way to possibly to determine if your perceptions are accurate and/or if you are possibly projecting - and possibly to alter things- is to talk to your therapist. If you feel that you want to continue the therapy I would recommend that you tell your therapist what you wrote here. If your therapist is interested in working with you and making things beneficial for you, she will be able to talk openly and without defensiveness to your concerns. That would be a good sign, if she seems willing to talk with you about your perceptions. It could end up that this conversation would lead to a positive direction for your therapy-or to let you know if your therapist is able to hear your concerns-a very important element of knowledge in making a decision on whether this is the right therapist for you. I know it is very difficult to change therapists if that is what you feel is best for you-it's not easy-but it's not always easy to find the right therapist. I wish you well.

Thanks for the reply. Insofar as what you stated I think that I really need to reevaluate if I want to continue therapy as it just isn't working for me. I mean last week I talked to her about being 'real' with me and not talking to me like a child, and that session was better. Then I go in today, and its as if I'm right back at square one and she's acting the same as I have asked her not to. Not only that, but when I've revealed some things to her she gives me this scripted b.s like 'oh that must have been hard', and it is so forced I can almost feel her dislike/hatred building for me as time goes on. I don't know, maybe I'm being paranoid because I often feel that I dislike myself, and I'm projecting the way i feel about myself unto her and assuming she must think the same. however, I'm all but sure she isn't fond of any part of my character and is quite relieved to send me on my way. And I understand that what I am admitting to her may be disturbing, but I've tried to at least soften the blows of what I tell her by first stating that what I'm telling her might offend/disturb her and she tells me its ok. Then only to look at me like I'm insane, furthering my embarrassment and confirming more and more that therapy isn't for me.

Two of the things which she hasn't been very helpful with, but which are very pressing to me are 1) My inability to build healthy relationships, 2) My history of violent and aggressive behavior.

And my therapists solutions seem to be summed up by me just 'wanting' to do something different. She says oh well why don't you just try to change? And I'm sitting there like, What.The.F***. Does she think I haven't tried or does she just think that 'trying' erases 20 Years of life experience. I mean I wasn't born the way I am today. I was bred to be cruel and unforgiving, and I learned early that people only respond to force or manipulation. That isn't something i enjoy, but i am not naive to the realities of life. And I have considered that maybe these university counselers just don't know a damn thing, but if that's the case, then they have no business practicing when they are negligent in their work. I simply do not feel understood by my therapist.

Originally Posted by brillskep

After good therapy, people don't normally feel like fools. This is certainly nothing to be expected and accepted. But they're your feelings, your experience. I wouldn't hurry to call it wrong. If you want to give this therapist a chance, would you consider talking in session about these feelings and fears you have? That might be a good starting point.

I could possibly be that your T really does not like you and can't contain that and you're picking up on that. If that's the case ... then I would think you deserve a better therapist. But it might be worth talking about it, if you want. I wonder if it's your tendency to feel like a fool when you feel disliked or rejected - if so this might be very relevant to your therapy. If not then there's probably something about the therapy that's not working for you.

Another interesting insight! Lol that's why I am asking here, because I'm not very good at examining why I do things. I just kind of do, if that makes any sense. And yes, I feel that I am picking up at some general disliking for me by my therapist and it showed through today, meanwhile I shared something personal about my relationship history and left feeling very much like a fool. I don't know, maybe I'm different here, but I do not feel like I should ever be sharing these things with someone who dislikes me or generally doesn't care.

Regardless, I was quite upset once these feelings began setting in a little while after I left (like they always do). I have determined though that next session I will confront her and ask her these things straight up and go from there. And I tend to be a good judge of character and so I know when people are lying to me or have bad feelings towards me.

[feralkittymom]

A couple of things strike me.

You mentioned University counselor, so I'm guessing you are using your University's counseling service? Be aware that there is usually a variety of counselors in such services, and they vary widely in experience and training. If you are seeing an intern, or other person with only beginning training, it's very possible that she doesn't have the "chops" to help you. And if you've talked about violent behavior, especially to a female inexperienced counselor, it's entirely possible that she does have some apprehension towards you.

When I used my Univ services, I made a point of researching backgrounds because I didn't want to put myself in the hands of a beginner, knowing that my issues were complex. Most large centers will have interns, MA degree holders, PhD staff psychologists, supervising psychologist(s), and psychiatrist (s).

I know you said somewhere else that you can't see revealing yourself to a male counselor, but with presenting concerns about violent relationships, you are less likely to run into defensive responses from a male counselor. May be something to reconsider.

I've often left therapy feeling like a fool.
That hasn't come from T. That is the interjected 'bad mother' voice I carry.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

A couple of things strike me.

You mentioned University counselor, so I'm guessing you are using your University's counseling service? Be aware that there is usually a variety of counselors in such services, and they vary widely in experience and training. If you are seeing an intern, or other person with only beginning training, it's very possible that she doesn't have the "chops" to help you. And if you've talked about violent behavior, especially to a female inexperienced counselor, it's entirely possible that she does have some apprehension towards you.

When I used my Univ services, I made a point of researching backgrounds because I didn't want to put myself in the hands of a beginner, knowing that my issues were complex. Most large centers will have interns, MA degree holders, PhD staff psychologists, supervising psychologist(s), and psychiatrist (s).

I know you said somewhere else that you can't see revealing yourself to a male counselor, but with presenting concerns about violent relationships, you are less likely to run into defensive responses from a male counselor. May be something to reconsider.

Well as far as I know and as far as the university website states, my therapist apparently has a "PsyD", but focuses on "women's issues", so that may be why it seems like she doesn't know what the hell she's doing. And maybe it was my poor presentation of my history which has made her 'apprehensive' and the ease with which I talk about my violent past both with abuse when I was a child, as well as fights, skirmishes, and confrontations I have had since. I laugh when I describe to her what I've done and why i treat people the way i do because when I hear it coming out of my mouth it does sound crazy for lack of a better word. I have also mentioned to her that my disposition and propensity towards violence and confrontation have also been greatly influenced by the fact that I grew up in a very poor, gang infested neighborhood. So many things which may seem foreign and alien to the white middle class of America, seem like 'home' to me. Things like helicopters always flying overhead at night, to not knowing whether the pops you just heared on the street over are gunshots or fireworks, or worse, knowing they are in fact gunshots but not caring because its not close enough. Or being able to recognize off the bat whether someone is high and on what. All different things that have inlfluenced the way I see people.

And maybe it's because I never had a very good relationship with my father but I don't feel that having a guy therapist is in the question. If this whole therapy thing doesn't workout though, I feel I can at least say to myself 'I tried' and let that be the end of it 'fixed' or not.

[Cherubbs]

Nothing in my life has come close to the crippling humiliation I experienced during the first few months of therapy both in session and in the days following. It was a subject we would address time and again until I could recognize it was me not him although I knew I might be overreacting but we are talking profoundly humiliated here. He quickly learnt how to navigate me away from those feelings when he saw it coming and at other times guide me back. I'm glad I stuck at it and I honestly can't imagine seeing anyone else for therapy but it is such a personal thing and depends a lot on how much you trust your therapist and their skill but trust too is something built over time. I can't offer you advice I can only say it does happen the question is would it happen no matter who the therapist was and/or is she bringing out this problem within that anyway needed to be dealt with.
I wish you all the best whatever you decide, I know it's really horrible but it does pass if dealt with properly. Good luck!

[feralkittymom]

PsyD is fine, but "women's issues" would give me pause. I'm not saying she can't step out of her comfort zone, but I would have to assume she's devoted a certain amount of time/experience and training to women as victims of violence. It presents an extra challenge for a T to be able to bend a paradigm successfully, especially one that carries a social/cultural connection.

Is there much diversity represented on the counseling staff? Most Universities have made a concerted effort to diversify their staffs, but it still can be a challenge for a lot of reasons. I rarely think people should change Ts, but I do wonder if a fresh start with a T more likely to be compatible in experience wouldn't be a good idea here. I hope you will investigate the possibility before giving up.

[CrimsonBlues]

Originally Posted by I_am_pain

Thanks for the reply. Insofar as what you stated I think that I really need to reevaluate if I want to continue therapy as it just isn't working for me. I mean last week I talked to her about being 'real' with me and not talking to me like a child, and that session was better. Then I go in today, and its as if I'm right back at square one and she's acting the same as I have asked her not to. Not only that, but when I've revealed some things to her she gives me this scripted b.s like 'oh that must have been hard', and it is so forced I can almost feel her dislike/hatred building for me as time goes on. I don't know, maybe I'm being paranoid because I often feel that I dislike myself, and I'm projecting the way i feel about myself unto her and assuming she must think the same. however, I'm all but sure she isn't fond of any part of my character and is quite relieved to send me on my way. And I understand that what I am admitting to her may be disturbing, but I've tried to at least soften the blows of what I tell her by first stating that what I'm telling her might offend/disturb her and she tells me its ok. Then only to look at me like I'm insane, furthering my embarrassment and confirming more and more that therapy isn't for me.

Two of the things which she hasn't been very helpful with, but which are very pressing to me are 1) My inability to build healthy relationships, 2) My history of violent and aggressive behavior.

And my therapists solutions seem to be summed up by me just 'wanting' to do something different. She says oh well why don't you just try to change? And I'm sitting there like, What.The.F***. Does she think I haven't tried or does she just think that 'trying' erases 20 Years of life experience. I mean I wasn't born the way I am today. I was bred to be cruel and unforgiving, and I learned early that people only respond to force or manipulation. That isn't something i enjoy, but i am not naive to the realities of life. And I have considered that maybe these university counselers just don't know a damn thing, but if that's the case, then they have no business practicing when they are negligent in their work. I simply do not feel understood by my therapist.

Thank you for your detailed response. It sounds like you have tried to talk about this with her and received only a temporary change. I read through the other posts on this thread and I agree with feralkittymom that it might be the training of this particular therapist considering she is a university counselor. I would add to that though-I have worked with therapists who were trained and educated in some of the most well known and respected universities and hospitals in the country and things did not go well. In one case the therapist was interested only in a sexual relationship with me, not conducting therapy. From what I have heard the best therapists can be the counselor working in a small university or the therapist who went to a prestigious college-it all depends on the person. I know that it can be a pain, as far as finding the right therapist, but it really depends on how a therapist relates to you, how you feel with that person-and that can be difficult to determine until you're sitting with them. Do you feel that they are empathizing with you, that they respect you, that they are treating you with respect. You wrote that you laugh at times when you're describing things from your past. I think that is something that a good therapist would understand-sometimes people do that when they are describing painful moments from their past. Sometimes they laugh, sometimes they indicate no emotions-and that can be with things that are very painful and things that have caused a great deal of pain. I get that and I think many good therapists do as well. Maybe it's time to find another therapist.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

PsyD is fine, but "women's issues" would give me pause. I'm not saying she can't step out of her comfort zone, but I would have to assume she's devoted a certain amount of time/experience and training to women as victims of violence. It presents an extra challenge for a T to be able to bend a paradigm successfully, especially one that carries a social/cultural connection.

Is there much diversity represented on the counseling staff? Most Universities have made a concerted effort to diversify their staffs, but it still can be a challenge for a lot of reasons. I rarely think people should change Ts, but I do wonder if a fresh start with a T more likely to be compatible in experience wouldn't be a good idea here. I hope you will investigate the possibility before giving up.

You know I hadn't really thought about the fact that maybe she just isn't used to dealing with the opposite demographic (male) and so she doesn't quite know what to do. What I simply can't understand though is why if these people have a damn doctorate in psychology, they are not at least well rounded enough to deal with multiple different personalities without it turning into a train wreck. The next session we meet though, I am going to be sure to ask her about some of these things and see how it goes. If she lies, and I know when people are lying, I will simply end our sessions and let it die. Because to be honest, i would actually be ok if she said 'hey, you know I think maybe I should just direct you to so and so, because I don't know what to do'. That would be ok to me. Hell, even if she came out and said 'hey, I don't really like you so I don't think we should work together' that would still be ok because at least she had the decency to be honest with me without b.s. I simply dont understand the cowardice of some people....I also don't think working with someone who dislikes me helps either of us, when she is doing a half ***** job, and I'm not getting any better. It becomes a lose/lose, and I'm not interested in wasting my time or hers.

Regardless, As I said before, I'm almost entirely sure she isn't happy with the content I share with her, based on her expressions and a seeming total lack of effort. You don't start sessions 15 min late and make sure to end on time when you are worried about helping someone....

Just as well the only other therapists they have are two old guys and two old black ladies, both of which are not happening.

[Gabbage]

I experienced similar feelings. Maybe it was transference and maybe it wasn't but I left after 6 months having raised this with T over the course. I was honest enough to say I found him a bit intimating and he seemed to think that was fine as he didn't explore it just said I needed to drop my guard. It wasn't my only gripe with the therapy but sad all the same.

To add to this when I decided to call it a day I asked for advice on what to try / who to try next and his response was 'you're a very resourceful person, you'll find something'. Cheers for that T. Great help rolleyes:

To be fair therapy wasn't a complete disaster but it didn't help where I needed it to. I think compatibility or lack of it was the issue and I do think it matters. You need to feel heard.

[CantExplain]

I know when people are lying.

New thread!

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by I_am_pain

You know I hadn't really thought about the fact that maybe she just isn't used to dealing with the opposite demographic (male) and so she doesn't quite know what to do. What I simply can't understand though is why if these people have a damn doctorate in psychology, they are not at least well rounded enough to deal with multiple different personalities without it turning into a train wreck. The next session we meet though, I am going to be sure to ask her about some of these things and see how it goes. If she lies, and I know when people are lying, I will simply end our sessions and let it die. Because to be honest, i would actually be ok if she said 'hey, you know I think maybe I should just direct you to so and so, because I don't know what to do'. That would be ok to me. Hell, even if she came out and said 'hey, I don't really like you so I don't think we should work together' that would still be ok because at least she had the decency to be honest with me without b.s. I simply dont understand the cowardice of some people....I also don't think working with someone who dislikes me helps either of us, when she is doing a half ***** job, and I'm not getting any better. It becomes a lose/lose, and I'm not interested in wasting my time or hers.

Regardless, As I said before, I'm almost entirely sure she isn't happy with the content I share with her, based on her expressions and a seeming total lack of effort. You don't start sessions 15 min late and make sure to end on time when you are worried about helping someone....

Just as well the only other therapists they have are two old guys and two old black ladies, both of which are not happening.

I'm not sure it's necessarily that she doesn't know cognitively how to respond; I think it may be more of an internal conflict of her experience and empathic interests pulling her in one direction, and her cognitive mind pulling her in another. So her empathic leanings are toward women's perspectives and experiences with violence, and her cognitive leanings are toward helping you, but the two can feel opposed. That's the paradigm that would be a struggle to constantly work with.

I agree with you that it would be great if Ts would just own up to the struggle, explain it, and refer you. But most won't. They seem to be programmed to believe they should "rise above" and deal with any struggle in supervision, rather than with a client. So I would caution you to not identify any behavior like that as "lying." The intention to lie probably isn't a factor, but the training of how Ts handle these struggles works against admitting to them to clients.

But it sounds like your Univ service is fairly small and limited. Are there professionals in the community? One thing this T could absolutely help you with is connecting with someone outside the Univ who might be better able to work with you without the conflicts. I really hope you don't give up because it's clear you have awareness and insight, and issues of violence of all kinds don't tend to resolve on their own; they tend to be repeated.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I'm not sure it's necessarily that she doesn't know cognitively how to respond; I think it may be more of an internal conflict of her experience and empathic interests pulling her in one direction, and her cognitive mind pulling her in another. So her empathic leanings are toward women's perspectives and experiences with violence, and her cognitive leanings are toward helping you, but the two can feel opposed. That's the paradigm that would be a struggle to constantly work with.

Ok here's something. If you were a female therapist and you had a male client who during sessions had mentioned recurring themes of violence, what would you do? Better yet, how would you respond to someone who (for hypothetical sake), admitted to you that the pain of others eased his own? That although he could successfully influence and manipulate people, that he could not ever feel a connection with them. That is, through pain he connects with people as humanity though not on an individual basis, if that makes any sense. Well essentially these are questions I don't feel my therapist is equipped to handle, but please do explain what you see is her plight in this as I simply don't seem to understand beyond that she can't operate outside her specialty and comfort zone.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I agree with you that it would be great if Ts would just own up to the struggle, explain it, and refer you. But most won't. They seem to be programmed to believe they should "rise above" and deal with any struggle in supervision, rather than with a client. So I would caution you to not identify any behavior like that as "lying." The intention to lie probably isn't a factor, but the training of how Ts handle these struggles works against admitting to them to clients.

Arrogance and ones own ego is no excuse for not doing the ethical thing. When I say that I know when people are lying, I simply meant that whether she ends up answering yes/no is irrelevant. I will know the truth based on how she says yes or know, and being that I sense that she is afraid of me to an extent, I don't feel that she will be inclined to hide her lies very well as she is no longer in a power position in our meetings. Please do not be offended by what I say here though, I simply that things the way I see and am not trying to be confrontational with you. So with that in mind, I will be sure to update this thread after next weeks session to let you know what happens.

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by I_am_pain

Ok here's something. If you were a female therapist and you had a male client who during sessions had mentioned recurring themes of violence, what would you do? Better yet, how would you respond to someone who (for hypothetical sake), admitted to you that the pain of others eased his own? That although he could successfully influence and manipulate people, that he could not ever feel a connection with them. That is, through pain he connects with people as humanity though not on an individual basis, if that makes any sense. Well essentially these are questions I don't feel my therapist is equipped to handle, but please do explain what you see is her plight in this as I simply don't seem to understand beyond that she can't operate outside her specialty and comfort zone.

I can't say what I would do because I'm not a T sitting in the room with you. But I don't think it's just about gender; her professional investment and maybe personal connection to issues of women and violence are the basic issue.

It makes a lot of sense: many people exposed to violence equate pain with connection. It's about power dynamics. I just think these are cultural/social/politically based issues and therapy isn't practiced in a vacuum. Also she's practicing at a Univ center; I'm an academic, and there's an academic cultural lens through which people, especially women, tend to view issues about violence. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that I've seen it in action. If her professional interests and experience have centered on "women's issues" as her bio says, then I can guess what some of her social/political views about violence are likely to be. So yes, an expertly skilled T would try to put these views aside in working with you, but I think it's unlikely that these views won't be an influence on the work. It creates an extra hurdle that someone with a different background wouldn't face. It needn't be about intention, but just inevitable psychological process. As a professor, I carry my personal perspective with me when teaching. I try to be aware of and reveal any possible biases, but there's always an unconscious, and I'm not perfect.

I suspect your intuition about sensing fear is accurate (it sounds like you've had a lot of practice developing such a sense.) It doesn't have to be fear of you, specifically, but more generalized fear about views you may represent for her because they are threatening to the population she has specialized in helping.

For instance, a lot of clients struggling with issues of child sexual abuse wouldn't feel comfortable working with a T who also saw perpetrators of abuse as clients. Fairly or not, they would feel the T had divided loyalties and that would impede trust. While it probably wouldn't be an issue of loyalties exactly, the T's experience treating perpetrators might very well influence how they would respond in a given moment within therapy. Anything that makes trust more difficult undermines therapy, and whether it "should" or not doesn't really matter.

Arrogance and ones own ego is no excuse for not doing the ethical thing. When I say that I know when people are lying, I simply meant that whether she ends up answering yes/no is irrelevant. I will know the truth based on how she says yes or know, and being that I sense that she is afraid of me to an extent, I don't feel that she will be inclined to hide her lies very well as she is no longer in a power position in our meetings.

Ego may be involved; I don't think arrogance is necessarily a factor. I don't see it as being an issue of lying to you, but rather the whole training and self-concept can influence any professional in any field to be unwilling to recognize that they are ill-suited to solve a given problem. I mean, whenever we have to admit failure to ourselves, our ego takes a hit. No one really wants to pursue that.

Please do not be offended by what I say here though, I simply that things the way I see and am not trying to be confrontational with you. So with that in mind, I will be sure to update this thread after next weeks session to let you know what happens.

No offense taken at all. I think you're pretty brave to admit to thinking things that others might have a problem with. That's why I hope you get a good fit with a T because you're clearly troubled by these thoughts and you deserve to be free of the effects of violence. And getting to the point to seek help, only to be met with frustration, by itself can trigger anger--not what you want.