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InRealLife45
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 01:10 PM
  #1
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8.25.14
Part of me wonders why I continue to write. If I can’t get you to respond to my (written) words in session, we are never going to get anywhere, and that is a fact. And you never really respond, and I don’t understand why. You said I couldn’t have the extra ten minutes, so I doubt there will be time to share any recordings with you during sessions. But I was thinking about something else you said on Thursday. I asked you to please consider before hand if the question you were about to deflect was WORTH the fallout afterwards of upsetting me so much that it ruined the rest of the session. Your response was curious.

"If you get upset, that's not my fault."

You are absolutely correct in that it would not be “your fault.” But in a larger sense is it not your goal to engage with me, to create an environment where I feel safe and able to share with you? If deflecting common and rather innocent questions are known to trigger me and cause so much upset that proceeding with a productive session becomes nearly impossible-is it not in MY BEST INTEREST to choose your deflection battles a little more carefully? I only bring this up because your answer made it seem like the only important thing was that you be right, not that you be helpful.

Which leads to my next concern…regarding you continuing to see me as a client. There was a point, several weeks ago, when Rochelle from insurance called me during our session to say that they would continue to pay for the next 6 months. You expressed confusion about why they would do that, how I had gotten them to do it. I had been feeling trepidation, I was afraid to tell you about my efforts to keep you bc you seemed to so strongly disapprove. I felt like you wanted me to accept “no” and just lie there and take it.

When I explained to you how my lawyer had explained it to me; about continuity of care, and if they stopped paying and something happened, they could feasibly be found legally liable. You became visibly upset and drove home to me that if I hurt myself, no one was liable but me, it was my responsibility alone. And you seemed very upset that they had agreed to continue paying. In light of you saying you had to keep seeing me bc I filed that grievance, that when people file grievances they get to keep coming as long as they want, I now wonder if this is not what you were referring to. That you might possibly have some legal culpability due to having abruptly dropped me as a client, (regardless if insurance told you to or not) and since I had drawn attention to the fact at the board meeting and via the grievance, you had no choice but to continue. I wonder if you had not consulted a lawyer or colleague about me, and if their counsel was not the reason you had agreed to see me on a 1x monthly basis prior to insurance agreeing to pay.

I know on Thursday you explained the reason you “had” to keep seeing me as due to the insurances verbal promise to pay, and that to them that was as good as actually paying, so you had to keep seeing me while they figured it out. I hear your words, I heard them both times, but they are different words, and I feel rather misled, I feel confused, I feel like you are gaslighting me, confusing me and blaming it on my BPD perceptions.


-IRL




(I dont think I will keep the term "gaslight" in there, but its a part of the original version. Everything dated before today I already gave her- its what was handwritten and given to her after my thursday session. The new stuff is dated today.)

Last edited by InRealLife45; Aug 25, 2014 at 03:41 PM..
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 01:47 PM
  #2
I couldn't remember if you are in the US or elsewhere, IRL, but here in the US, your therapist is not obligated to continue to see you if she terminates in a therapeutically dictated manner: She offers a termination session(s), documents in your file and informs you of the reason(s) for termination and she gives you a list of appropriate referrals for continued treatment. If she did all these things, she would not be held liable if you deteriorated or hurt yourself. I say this because on occasion, therapist's recognize that the therapeutic relationship is NOT working and might actually be damaging the client. She would have to show through her documentation in your file her attempts to "get therapy" back on track and the failure of this happening. (Your emails to her would be solid documentation to be included in her file to show this as a reason to terminate). You don't have to agree with this outcome and neither does your insurance company. Your therapist is ethically bound to make this decision if she feels that your continuing to see her is actually hurting you clinically. From the sound of how you describe things in your relationship with your therapist, it doesn't sound too crazy to say things are really off the rails and you might need to start in a new place with a new person. But that has to be either you to decide or your therapist to initiate.

I also wanted to suggest you might want to check out some reading material on people with BPD in therapy. How you react to your therapist is pretty classic--you get angry and lash out (cold anger and rejection of her caring) or acting out (abruptly leaving sessions). The follow-up to this behavior is to make contact with the person in some shape or form, (you tend to do this in emails--writing eloquent and heart felt emails, pouring your heart out and talking about having a significant revelation) offering yourself up as the one who is "bad" or inappropriate in your previous reaction to her. It's like offering yourself up on the alter of shame, attempting to reconnect by being the naughty child who had a temper tantrum. People with BPD often demonstrate this behavior with their therapist and/or their loved ones. If the person accepts the attempt at reconciliation, then things might be calm or relatively calm for a short period of time and then things heat up again, leading to more anger and resentment (fear of the person planning to leave or abandon).

Probably the worst thing for you therapist to do is respond to you through email. It's fine for you to write them, but the actual content needs to be dealt with face-to-face. You've already talked about how you tend to "read her mind" or her facial expressions and it appears that you often project or put your own spin on what she's thinking. If you do that face-to-face, I think it's even easier for things to get in a big hot mess through email. Talk about you emails with her in session! And if she is able to do that with calm warmth, interest and understanding (not cold withdrawal), perhaps you two will work things out. But please, please, please don't expect a significant or in-depth response in an email from her. Some people can do email therapy but a lot of people can't . . . you appear to fall into the latter category. Just my thoughts on the emails.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 01:56 PM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Jaybird57 View Post
I couldn't remember if you are in the US or elsewhere, IRL, but here in the US, your therapist is not obligated to continue to see you if she terminates in a therapeutically dictated manner: She offers a termination session(s), documents in your file and informs you of the reason(s) for termination and she gives you a list of appropriate referrals for continued treatment. If she did all these things, she would not be held liable if you deteriorated or hurt yourself. I say this because on occasion, therapist's recognize that the therapeutic relationship is NOT working and might actually be damaging the client. She would have to show through her documentation in your file her attempts to "get therapy" back on track and the failure of this happening. (Your emails to her would be solid documentation to be included in her file to show this as a reason to terminate). You don't have to agree with this outcome and neither does your insurance company. Your therapist is ethically bound to make this decision if she feels that your continuing to see her is actually hurting you clinically. From the sound of how you describe things in your relationship with your therapist, it doesn't sound too crazy to say things are really off the rails and you might need to start in a new place with a new person. But that has to be either you to decide or your therapist to initiate.

I also wanted to suggest you might want to check out some reading material on people with BPD in therapy. How you react to your therapist is pretty classic--you get angry and lash out (cold anger and rejection of her caring) or acting out (abruptly leaving sessions). The follow-up to this behavior is to make contact with the person in some shape or form, (you tend to do this in emails--writing eloquent and heart felt emails, pouring your heart out and talking about having a significant revelation) offering yourself up as the one who is "bad" or inappropriate in your previous reaction to her. It's like offering yourself up on the alter of shame, attempting to reconnect by being the naughty child who had a temper tantrum. People with BPD often demonstrate this behavior with their therapist and/or their loved ones. If the person accepts the attempt at reconciliation, then things might be calm or relatively calm for a short period of time and then things heat up again, leading to more anger and resentment (fear of the person planning to leave or abandon).

Probably the worst thing for you therapist to do is respond to you through email. It's fine for you to write them, but the actual content needs to be dealt with face-to-face. You've already talked about how you tend to "read her mind" or her facial expressions and it appears that you often project or put your own spin on what she's thinking. If you do that face-to-face, I think it's even easier for things to get in a big hot mess through email. Talk about you emails with her in session! And if she is able to do that with calm warmth, interest and understanding (not cold withdrawal), perhaps you two will work things out. But please, please, please don't expect a significant or in-depth response in an email from her. Some people can do email therapy but a lot of people can't . . . you appear to fall into the latter category. Just my thoughts on the emails.
I'm in the US. I call them emails, but really they're letters as none of this was emailed and I intend to read it to her tonight in session, as for the termination stuff -she only said we were done after insurance told her she was fired as a provider and they wouldn't pay her anymore, so in turn she told ME if I wanted a termination session I had to pay for it, otherwise adios and good luck. The reason for termination was insurance would no longer cover sessions and I could not afford her full fee which she had chosen to raise instead of keep at the rate she was being paid by my insurance.

I am asking the q's about liability bc i dont understand why she said what she did about "having" to see me, her explanation just doesn't make any sense. If she didn't want to see me shes had a million opportunities to tell me to take a hike, so why would she turn around and tell me she sees me bc she has to? What other scenario could make her "have" to see me? I guess I just don't understand and I need to understand. As for me being the bad one...I've done my dirt, yes, but so has she- she just refuses to own it or accept that she did it, so I wanted to play the recordings back for her- namely the one you all listened to. but i dont think it will phase her or that she will hear what we all did so I guess there is probably no point in listening to sessions with her.

I TRY MY BEST TO TALK TO HER ABOUT MY LETTERS IN SESSION but i read them to her and she says "yeah...right..." then looks off into space. she rarely if EVER actually responds to them, and then she gets mad at me for getting mad at her lack of response???? I dont know how to deal with her refusal to respond.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 02:21 PM
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IRL, everyone has to pay for their sessions, termination session or regular session. Yes, she has offered you a termination session and has told you that you have to pay. That is a reasonable request on her part. Even termination isn't free, as painful as a termination session can be . . . The reality of the relationship we all have with our therapists is that it is a professional one and that means either insurance pays or we pay. It's not for free unless offered by the therapist and in this day and age, that offer doesn't come very often!

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I dont know how to deal with her refusal to respond.
I get that. I can hear you thrashing around frantically trying to get the response you want from her and she isn't giving it to you. You have to decide if you want to continue to try to force the issue or walk away. In a way, you're in the power position (if you allow yourself to see it that way). She's giving you the power to do the walking away if you don't like how the relationship has turned out. You have three choices: 1) You can stay and continue to try and get things to return to the way they were or how you want them to be, 2) You can try and work things out and find a new connection to your therapist, or 3) You can thank her for her professional time, ask for a referral list and then leave. Personally, I've never found that I've been able to force someone to engage in a relationship on my terms only, and it seems like the two of you are trying to do this to each other. Not surprisingly, neither of you are getting anything positive or constructive out of this approach!
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 02:32 PM
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If you tell all this to your T and she responds angrily, I think she has a major problem. If I were her, I would be crying so much by the end of the first letter, whether any of it was true or not, because your pain is SO obvious. And you're trying SO hard.

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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 02:53 PM
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IRL,

I hope it is productive for you to read this in session.

When you say this sentence, what note are you talking about? It seems to be the change agent in your relationship.

"After the note though, you banned me for three sessions and you took it seriously, you thought I wanted to hurt you when nothing could have been further from the truth, I adored you so much."

What was in that note?
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 02:57 PM
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IRL,

I hope it is productive for you to read this in session.

When you say this sentence, what note are you talking about? It seems to be the change agent in your relationship.

"After the note though, you banned me for three sessions and you took it seriously, you thought I wanted to hurt you when nothing could have been further from the truth, I adored you so much."

What was in that note?
she used to joke in session all the time that whenever i got mad at her in session shed go out to her car afterwards and check her tires bc i was the "client most likely to" slash her tires in anger.

(in reality i am the client most likely to file a complaint)

but anyway after months of her joking like that, one night i finally put a note on her car window that said "check your tires lately? oh goody, they arent slashed yet." -your client the stalker (with a smiley face.)

it was totally a joke but she acted like i had threatened to shoot her or something.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:02 PM
  #8
It might help to create a more concise letter. The situation is complex and confusing, but just maybe there is a way to break down the letter in a different way.

Maybe try stating is less than 6 bullet points what you are seeking from her and why (briefly!). Maybe follow up a couple of sentences with owning "your" part in things. Don't take responsibility for her bad actions. However it may be best to leave any blame out of your message altogether. Only because it makes her shut down and not listen, not because she is right.

Brevity and clarity may help a lot. The wall of text effect may shut her down.

Hope that isn't offensive for me to say?
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:03 PM
  #9
Oh dear. She really should not have made that tire-slashing joke to begin with, nor should she have implied that you were the client most likely to do such a thing!

She might have been freaked out by your note, but she started the joke and you were just continuing a joke that she started.

...Like, you wrote that note to draw closer to her to keep the joke going, and then the opposite happened: She pulled away.

So basically, she was afraid of you for a time and to let you know that writing such a note was not OK, she banned you for three sessions, which triggered strong abandonment fears in you. Is that what seems to have happened?

Has she calmed down now?

Was her punishment to cancel your next three sessions? How would that have solved anything?

Sometimes, when there is a rupture, it might be worth it in session to go back to the point of rupture and heal it from where it started. Have you two talked about the note and her canceling of sessions?
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by growlycat View Post
It might help to create a more concise letter. The situation is complex and confusing, but just maybe there is a way to break down the letter in a different way.

Maybe try stating is less than 6 bullet points what you are seeking from her and why (briefly!). Maybe follow up a couple of sentences with owning "your" part in things. Don't take responsibility for her bad actions. However it may be best to leave any blame out of your message altogether. Only because it makes her shut down and not listen, not because she is right.

Brevity and clarity may help a lot. The wall of text effect may shut her down.

Hope that isn't offensive for me to say?
its too late to change anything in the first psart bc i gave her the handwritten copy already.

im open to any suggestions you have on what ive written today, tho, the 8.25 part? ive rewritten it like five times and it sucks every time i dont know how to say it w/o blaming.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:15 PM
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Oh dear. She really should not have made that tire-slashing joke to begin with, nor should she have implied that you were the client most likely to do such a thing!

She might have been freaked out by your note, but she started the joke and you were just continuing a joke that she started.

...Like, you wrote that note to draw closer to her to keep the joke going, and then the opposite happened: She pulled away.

So basically, she was afraid of you for a time and to let you know that writing such a note was not OK, she banned you for three sessions, which triggered strong abandonment fears in you. Is that what seems to have happened?

Has she calmed down now?

Was her punishment to cancel your next three sessions? How would that have solved anything?

Sometimes, when there is a rupture, it might be worth it in session to go back to the point of rupture and heal it from where it started. Have you two talked about the note and her canceling of sessions?
heres the note. this caused a MAJOR monumental rupture but it happened last year..june 17 I think. We have been struggling to get over it since then. Its not really working. I think if it had just been that it would have been different, but I had mon/wed 8pm sessions ever since I first started seeing her, and after the note she took away my monday 8pm telling me she had another client who needed it and would use it better than I did, and she hoped that we would be able to find a different time for me (even tho the week before we had discussed how she had no other availability that matched mine) and her doing that was just too much for me, and she didnt give it back until november 2013 (after taking it in august 2013) and I spent those months being squeezed in here and there. the three sessions that were canceled after the note-one was me- i showed up at the office and she saw me but i refused to go inside. she got mad and canceled my next weeks sessions saying she had to consult her colleagues, all of whom told her to get rid of me bc i threatened her.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:19 PM
  #12
To answer the question in the title of this thread-no, I don't think that your second letter is instigating. I think that you are desperate for a damn answer, and I would feel the same way.

Whether you are borderline or not, the way that your therapist responds to you is crazy making. It would drive me crazy too.

Honestly, you poured your heart out in both letters. You mentioned that you read your letters to her in session and try to talk to her about them, but she either deflects, or looks off into space and says "yeah…right…." This is heartbreaking to hear about. No wonder this whole situation is causing you so much pain and getting you so riled up.

I know that this wasn't part of the purpose of your thread, but something jumped out at me. You wrote her a note in June 2013 that resulted in her BANNING you from session for three weeks? She PUNISHED you (the client) by taking away your sessions, banning you, shunning you?? WTF????

Ok, back to your question. No, in a normal-person universe, I don't think that your letter is instigating. I think there are issues that you really want to talk about and questions that you desperately want answers to. I think that you want closure. I think that you want off of this painful and crazy-making merry-go-round. However, in this universe that your T has you trapped in…I highly doubt it will lead to anything that feels helpful or healing.

I know that so many on here have recommended that you cut your losses and find a different T. I can also really understand your reasons for staying. I just wanted to say that I'm sorry that you're in a situation that is clearly so painful and frustrating right now. You deserve better.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:20 PM
  #13
good luck tonight IRL I hope she has her listening ears on. I hear you trying to just figure all this stuff and hurt out .I hope she is willing to meet you there

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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:20 PM
  #14
Thanks for the clarification--

Maybe the 8.25 message could be simplified--

Dear T

*Will you listen to my writing during session and stay engaged?
* Willyou explain why you believe that you "have to" see me as a client?

I am sorry for ever making you feel threatened. I want to try to work this all out and return our relationship to the warm loving place it was in year 1.

* Do you think that this is possible?
* What actions do I need to take to make our working relationship strong again?
* Would you tell me if you felt our relationship won't improve?

Last edited by growlycat; Aug 25, 2014 at 03:26 PM.. Reason: can changed to will!
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by clairelisbeth View Post
To answer the question in the title of this thread-no, I don't think that your second letter is instigating. I think that you are desperate for a damn answer, and I would feel the same way.

Whether you are borderline or not, the way that your therapist responds to you is crazy making. It would drive me crazy too.

Honestly, you poured your heart out in both letters. You mentioned that you read your letters to her in session and try to talk to her about them, but she either deflects, or looks off into space and says "yeah…right…." This is heartbreaking to hear about. No wonder this whole situation is causing you so much pain and getting you so riled up.

I know that this wasn't part of the purpose of your thread, but something jumped out at me. You wrote her a note in June 2013 that resulted in her BANNING you from session for three weeks? She PUNISHED you (the client) by taking away your sessions, banning you, shunning you?? WTF????

Ok, back to your question. No, in a normal-person universe, I don't think that your letter is instigating. I think there are issues that you really want to talk about and questions that you desperately want answers to. I think that you want closure. I think that you want off of this painful and crazy-making merry-go-round. However, in this universe that your T has you trapped in…I highly doubt it will lead to anything that feels helpful or healing.

I know that so many on here have recommended that you cut your losses and find a different T. I can also really understand your reasons for staying. I just wanted to say that I'm sorry that you're in a situation that is clearly so painful and frustrating right now. You deserve better.
I was only three sessions (I go twice a week) so it was only a week and a half "banned", but she said it wasnt punishment, that it was a major therapeutic rupture and we both needed cooling off time.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:24 PM
  #16
I posted my first response before I saw the thing about the tires-slashing note.

She shouldn't have been making that joke in the first place. Completely inappropriate and unprofessional. Making you feel like her "stalker client?" Not cool.

That being said, you probably shouldn't have put that note on her car, even though you were clearly joking. Whatever-we're all human, we all make mistakes. After she cleared it up with you, I still don't think that banning you from session was the right move. Do you think that she really, truly felt unsafe? Or was she trying to make a point?

Ugh. This whole thing sounds like a mess.

I would be at my wit's end if I were you.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:25 PM
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I was only three sessions (I go twice a week) so it was only a week and a half "banned", but she said it wasnt punishment, that it was a major therapeutic rupture and we both needed cooling off time.
I'm confused -

That note re the tyres, caused the rupture??? Am I right??? She got offended at you making a joke about something she had made a joke about??

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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:30 PM
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I was only three sessions (I go twice a week) so it was only a week and a half "banned", but she said it wasnt punishment, that it was a major therapeutic rupture and we both needed cooling off time.
She said that it wasn't punishment, but it sounds like you felt punished. Did you?

I'm confused though….was this what caused the rupture between you two? Or was it a series of things?
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:36 PM
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I'm confused -

That note re the tyres, caused the rupture??? Am I right??? She got offended at you making a joke about something she had made a joke about??
yep, that pretty much sums it up. It was ok for her to joke about, but not me. To be honest tho, the joke WAS starting to hurt my feelings, so thats partially why i put the note in the first place.

And in session she started 5 minutes late bc some random guy ran in and she talked to him for part of my session time and didnt apologize so I got mad and told her she should call AAA before session was over so they could be there to fix her tire by the end of session, bc they usually take 45 minutes to come out bc I had slashed her tire. She said she didn't believe me and she ignored me and session continued as always and she hugged me afterwards like normal and I had forgotten about the note so I text her it was a joke and just throw it away but she didnt reply so i assumed everything was cool, and she waited an entire week to have "the talk" with me about being really upset about what I had done with the note. So I in turn got upset bc if youre that bothered why did it take you a full week to bring it up, why act like everything was copacetic?

So..yea. It was a multilayered issue. And I was absolutely being a super brat during that entire session. Basically angrily pouting bc of the other guys overlap, mostly bc she hadnt apologized and bc she never replaces minutes lost for reasons of her own doing so I was mad,.) I was a *****.
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Default Aug 25, 2014 at 03:38 PM
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairelisbeth View Post
She said that it wasn't punishment, but it sounds like you felt punished. Did you?

I'm confused though….was this what caused the rupture between you two? Or was it a series of things?
I felt VERY punished, I begged her several times to please let me come in (I had plans to enter eating disorder treatment that I needed to tell her about) but she refused. But the biggest punishment was her taking my monday session with the explanation that I didnt deserve it as much as another client, and not have a replacement spot for me.

She didnt consider any of that a punishment. I asked her to just hit me and get it out of her system rather than do what she was doing, but obviously she declined.

the note (and my telling her to call AAA) was the rupture.

And I guess also my not talking about enough things in session that she thought were important.
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