[Onward2wards]

Oh how I hate those words, don't you? "You are choosing to ... <insert self-defeating behavior here>"

I've thought a lot about it, and have come to this conclusion: you can only make a choice when you believe a choice is actually available. IMO, "you are choosing to..." is technically accurate, but it is not functionally accurate. There's a difference.

How do you believe a choice is possible?
(1) You would have to believe you have a right to make a choice;
(2) You would have to believe you can successfully do what the choice involves;
(3) You would have to believe that exercising the choice is likely to yield a desired result.

Let's take for example, being assertive. To act with assertiveness, you would need to believe you have a right to be assertive, you would need to believe you have the capacity to be assertive, and you would need to believe that assertiveness would likely get a desired result. If you have issues with any one of these, that would logically impede the ability to choose, wouldn't it?

[Depletion]

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

Oh how I hate those words, don't you? "You are choosing to ... <insert self-defeating behavior here>"

I've thought a lot about it, and have come to this conclusion: you can only make a choice when you believe a choice is actually available. IMO, "you are choosing to..." is technically accurate, but it is not functionally accurate. There's a difference.

How do you believe a choice is possible?
(1) You would have to believe you have a right to make a choice;
(2) You would have to believe you can successfully do what the choice involves;
(3) You would have to believe that exercising the choice is likely to yield a desired result.

Let's take for example, being assertive. To act with assertiveness, you would need to believe you have a right to be assertive, you would need to believe you have the capacity to be assertive, and you would need to believe that assertiveness would likely get a desired result. If you have issues with any one of these, that would logically impede the ability to choose, wouldn't it?

Holly crap, I totally hate this kind of language in therapy. I find it very triggering, and completely unempathetic. If you need to do something like be more assertive your T should first help you work through all of the things that make you feel like you can't assert yourself, and help you to understand in time that you may be able to assert yourself.

[Willowleaf]

This is an argument I have daily in the school I work in. The principle says those very things, and I (as assistant principle) spend ages trying to explain that for this to be true the children have to know that in the moment they make the decision there is another option and for our more damaged children I know they don't.
Is your therapy CBT? As this comment seems to come more from that angle. My t once said I had a choice with everything, to go to work, to not go. When I said no I have to go to pay for my house and stuff then she said no I was making a sensible choice, but a choice nevertheless. She's never mentioned it since and I think she just wanted me to have something to think on rather then change my behaviour.
So for me reading your post, take the assertive example you give, did you feel you had a choice? What was the context of your t sayin this? Are they trying to make you think? Were they cross with you? If this was said to make you change and pointing out you are making wrong choices then I think it was very badly said and I'm really sorry. No, I really don't think that in that moment we always feel there is a choice. Afterwards I often look back and regret not doing things differently but in the moment I don't, hence my place in therapy!

This is a tough one imo. We, in some kind of way, make choices all the time. but they are not conscious. It's not that you wake up and think 'Will I go into work or not today?'. That's not like looking at a menu and deciding what you want to eat. There you see the options and you might feel the difficulty to choose. The options are clear.

But often I think we don't see the options and we don't feel this difficulty rising up. We think 'I have to go to work today, that's just how it is'. And yes, there may be another option. You could stay in bed. But I wonder whether other options being present turns your behavior into a conscious choice. I don't think it does. There's habits, there's assumptions, there's false beliefs, there's so much more out there that influences us all the time.

I think that if your behavior is self-defeating and you know this, it's almost never a 'choice'. Cause why would you make that choice if it doesn't support you? There is something stronger pulling you away from the other options or blinding you, keeping you from seeing there even are other options.

I actually see it more as a decision. I 'decided' to get out of bed this morning, but it wasn't a 'choice' really. I didn't go through all the other options in my head before I jumped out of bed. So I agree with you. It might be technically correct, but that's just now how it works... in our head... in the real world...

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Willowleaf

This is an argument I have daily in the school I work in. The principle says those very things, and I (as assistant principle) spend ages trying to explain that for this to be true the children have to know that in the moment they make the decision there is another option and for our more damaged children I know they don't.
Is your therapy CBT? As this comment seems to come more from that angle. My t once said I had a choice with everything, to go to work, to not go. When I said no I have to go to pay for my house and stuff then she said no I was making a sensible choice, but a choice nevertheless. She's never mentioned it since and I think she just wanted me to have something to think on rather then change my behaviour.

I understand where this line of thinking is coming from. It isn't meant to be dismissive of any abuse or maltreatment someone has suffered - we cannot control what other people do or do to us. I think the choice part helps to eliminate self defeating attitudes and behaviors that may have come about as a result of things that we had no control over. For some people this is empowering and gives back an element of control over their life that they didn't think they had. I think the concept of freedom of choice can give a glimmer of hope to a lot of people who feel otherwise helpless or stuck.

[stopdog]

I believe most things are choice. I don't think I have often found there was no choice involved. It does not mean the choices are fun or easy. Sometimes it is simply the choice between two or more evils.

[emptyspace]

Just because you are not aware of all the choices, does not mean that you are not aware of your current actions and what that choice leads to.

My T said something similar to me today - not using those exact words though. Massive guilt trip, leading to an inability to speak for the remaining 20 minutes and a wasted working day. Go on, tell me I chose those reactions. You can't actually make me feel more ashamed of being alive than I already am.

[archipelago]

While the ultimate transformation in therapy would be that we had more freedom, more ability to make choices, in a word, liberation, we usually are in therapy because something is blocking us or binding us so that we are not feeling that we have that freedom. The language of choice is simply not useful and can end up sounding judgmental or blaming/shaming, which is counterproductive. Besides I believe in the unconscious and also in the power of habituation. Both produce actions but are not really choices.

[NowhereUSA]

i disagree.

just because a person isn't aware there is a choice doesn't mean there isn't one. maybe it's the mode of therapy i'm in, but dbt is about creating awareness that i have a choice and one of the realizations i've had is that i've always had a choice. maybe not about my depression, but how i interact with it. rather than feeling blamed, i feel empowered. when i have the urge to SI, knowing that i don't *have* to indulge gives me the wiggle room i need. that i am an agent in my own world and i can choose not to, is incredibly liberating. it doesn't mean i don't give in because the craving is strong, but over the course of the years it has lessened significantly to the point that it's not my first go to.

i do, however, think it can be a hard and invalidating thing to hear if a person hasn't been trained to look for the choice, but it is a true statement nonetheless.

i'm with SD. i think most of life is about choice. it doesn't mean we like our choices, but we do have a choice.

[PeeJay]

In the context of therapy, I think that therapists say, "You choose to," to either empower the client or help the client see a way to change it.

And instead, the client takes this as being judged or shamed.

[Perna]

I think learning to be aware of what choices are out there is part of therapy too. But until we learn that we are missing choices (T tells us what we have chosen versus what we might have chosen instead) how can we know? I often felt dumb for not seeing a choice or for taking it the wrong way, etc. But it's a learning experience and you cannot learn without mistakes. Mistakes are our friends

I believe in choices so if I don't like the ones I can think of I work to think of others I do like. A hard choice is not the same as a choice I cannot make though. When I started therapy for the last time I chose to not allow myself the fetal position -- physically, mentally, emotionally. I deliberately decided I would move ahead no matter what. A couple of times I was quite sure I would die but I did not.

[Little Lulu]

One of the first things I learned in a support group I attend is that 'we ALWAYS have choices', even if it is just a change in attitude. It was a 'WOW' moment for me and I found that concept liberating, not restrictive. It does put the responsibility for my life and its outcomes on my shoulders, though. Like Perna, I may WANT to wallow in pity and blame and I may indulge in it sometimes but in my soul I know it isn't in my best interest.

There was a time when I fought the idea of choices ... now I see it as freedom, even when I am going through a life challenge.

I'm glad to hear that there are people whom this kind of approach works for. But as all good therapists know, no approach and no model of explaining the world works for all clients. That doesn't mean that the clients who don't respond according to textbooks are flawed.

[stopdog]

To clarify - I have never personally felt I did not have choice. Even as a small child, I recall thinking I had choice if only to wait until I was 18 and could leave or could do something differently or (in my case) more oddly than they already found me.
I have never seen anyone who I thought did not have some choice in their situation other than some of my clients with dementia, in a coma, or actively in the throws of psychosis. It also does not matter for anyone else what I believe. I find the idea of me having choice gives me power. I don't know why I would not want that power. I have always liked that power. That I like believing I have choice does not translate to always liking the options to choose from. But they are my options and what ever choice I make is mine.

It would not help me one way or the other for a therapist to tell me I have choices because I already believe it. Of course, I don't think the therapist saying anything is useful in the first place.

[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by stopdog

To clarify - I have never personally felt I did not have choice. Even as a small child, I recall thinking I had choice if only to wait until I was 18 and could leave or could do something differently or (in my case) more oddly than they already found me.
I have never seen anyone who I thought did not have some choice in their situation other than some of my clients with dementia, in a coma, or actively in the throws of psychosis. It also does not matter for anyone else what I believe. I find the idea of me having choice gives me power. I don't know why I would not want that power. I have always liked that power. That I like believing I have choice does not translate to always liking the options to choose from. But they are my options and what ever choice I make is mine.

It would not help me one way or the other for a therapist to tell me I have choices because I already believe it. Of course, I don't think the therapist saying anything is useful in the first place.

I think the point is that whether someone has a choice or not, they don't perceive themselves as having a choice. Sometimes, it's better to allow them to believe what they want or need to believe, and sometimes its better to call them out on having a choice. For example, if they are talking about the past, it's much better to accept that they felt like they didn't have a choice, end of story. But if it's something current, it's better to help the person realize that they do have choices. Maybe not all of them are good, but there ARE choices.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have never seen anyone who I thought did not have some choice in their situation other than some of my clients with dementia, in a coma, or actively in the throws of psychosis...

Oh you're a therapist? Didn't know anybody here was a therapist though I think I remember a few mentioning they were interested in it or studying it, but either way it's good to know some therapists here too.

Originally Posted by PeeJay

In the context of therapy, I think that therapists say, "You choose to," to either empower the client or help the client see a way to change it.

And instead, the client takes this as being judged or shamed.

Yes I agree. I think often the intention of the therapist is good, but it's very important how and when the therapist brings up the issue of choice. A particular tone, or untimely comment about choice can definitely sound like shaming or guilting or judging the person. There is no hard and fast rule.

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

i disagree.

just because a person isn't aware there is a choice doesn't mean there isn't one. maybe it's the mode of therapy i'm in, but dbt is about creating awareness that i have a choice and one of the realizations i've had is that i've always had a choice. maybe not about my depression, but how i interact with it. rather than feeling blamed, i feel empowered. when i have the urge to SI, knowing that i don't *have* to indulge gives me the wiggle room i need. that i am an agent in my own world and i can choose not to, is incredibly liberating. it doesn't mean i don't give in because the craving is strong, but over the course of the years it has lessened significantly to the point that it's not my first go to.

i do, however, think it can be a hard and invalidating thing to hear if a person hasn't been trained to look for the choice, but it is a true statement nonetheless.

i'm with SD. i think most of life is about choice. it doesn't mean we like our choices, but we do have a choice.

Yes I agree with a lot of this too. I think I've had a choice in many more situations than I was aware of. I've had more freedom in a lot of situations than I was aware of. That I did not choose a particular healthier or happier or better path at each intersection in life, however, is no simple matter either.

As the OP mentions, there are obstacles along the way. Having a choice does not translate into making the choice. Personally sometimes I was aware of my choices but did not feel I had the power or the right to choose. In fact, having that kind of power was kind of scary and I was not emotionally ready for it, which is why sometimes I was not aware of choices perhaps for some unconscious reasons. Perhaps that people will hurt me if I exercise my power to choose. I grew up in an environment and a lot of people felt victimized and choiceless and for me to live differently was something that would take me a long time to prepare for, emotionally.

But these things are not to invalidate or disagree with what you say about us always have more freedom and choice than we realize or want to admit. A good therapist can slowly give you the power in a way that neither overwhelms you nor shames you for past failures.

great thread

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

Oh how I hate those words, don't you? "You are choosing to ... <insert self-defeating behavior here>"

I've thought a lot about it, and have come to this conclusion: you can only make a choice when you believe a choice is actually available. IMO, "you are choosing to..." is technically accurate, but it is not functionally accurate. There's a difference.

How do you believe a choice is possible?
(1) You would have to believe you have a right to make a choice;
(2) You would have to believe you can successfully do what the choice involves;
(3) You would have to believe that exercising the choice is likely to yield a desired result.

Let's take for example, being assertive. To act with assertiveness, you would need to believe you have a right to be assertive, you would need to believe you have the capacity to be assertive, and you would need to believe that assertiveness would likely get a desired result. If you have issues with any one of these, that would logically impede the ability to choose, wouldn't it?

even if you don't like the choices posed, or believe yourself incapable of performing- you ALWAYS have a choice.

your belief in your ability to carry it out doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. its still there. you're just choosing to limit yourself and not use it.

for instance.

in a show I saw once, (Arrow) a man has a gun to someone's head and tells him he IS going to kill someone that moment- him, or someone he loved. the choice is impossible, but it is still a choice.

you still have to choose. refusing to choose is still a choice.

In your T's example it seems they are saying something along the lines of "You are choosing to feed your depression by not bathing and engaging in poor hygeine."

You FEEL you have no choice. You CAN'T bathe, bc you are too sad. Too tired too heavy. It's impossible.

But the reality is you can move your body, you can stand up and take off your clothes and get into the shower. You can brush your teeth. One step at a time but each one is a choice, We make these choices every day, all the time. Make the one that builds steps up away from your bad place rather than down below your bad place.

[stopdog]

[quote=Partless;3963982]Oh you're a therapist? Didn't know anybody here was a therapist though I think I remember a few mentioning they were interested in it or studying it, but either way it's good to know some therapists here too.

/quote]

There are some therapists here - but I am not one of then. I am an attorney who both is full time faculty at a law school and who represents clients in involuntary detentions/mental health hold/wrongful treatment cases.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

I think the point is that whether someone has a choice or not, they don't perceive themselves as having a choice. Sometimes, it's better to allow them to believe what they want or need to believe, and sometimes its better to call them out on having a choice. For example, if they are talking about the past, it's much better to accept that they felt like they didn't have a choice, end of story. But if it's something current, it's better to help the person realize that they do have choices. Maybe not all of them are good, but there ARE choices.

That is not what I was raling about.

My take on this might be really different, but I always think CBT is about building defense mechanisms. Rationalization, reaction formation, omnipotence....grandiosity, etc. The same stuff that I get rid of in my therapy!! (to be replaced with healthier defenses)

Then the underlying self structure remains (i.e., feeling powerless).

Another slant on this is that people are not equal in their choices. Just a random example: someone with severe impulse control liability might have a hell of a lot more difficulty in choosing to not have a drink than someone without impulse control problems. Maybe that person needs compassion rather than to be told that they have the same choices that everyone else has? I think that can be troubling for some of us.

Some people also have a really harsh superego, and I can see this type of approach strengthening that rather than weakening it, which is unhealthy for that person. Then there are those of us who have been chronically guilt tripped by a parent; so the times when we are struggling and making the wrong choice/not choosing can make us feel really guilty for not being able to do what we're 'supposed to do' (which relates to the superego thing).

I'm glad it works for some people, but I guess I just don't get it.

Just my two cents.

[stopdog]

Perhaps this is more clear - for me -knowing I have choice - even unpalatable choices - keeps me from being a victim. I never want to put myself in the position of being or thinking of myself as a victim of anything or anyone. I know that everytime I act - I could choose amongst actions. I could do A or B or C. Even choosing no action is a choice.


For me, it has nothing at all to do with therapy or a therapist. And I never, ever do CBT.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by stopdog

There are some therapists here - but I am not one of then. I am an attorney who both is full time faculty at a law school and who represents clients in involuntary detentions/mental health hold/wrongful treatment cases.

Oh wow, that's a very interesting position. So you bring another flavor of the whole choice and empowerment to this debate but more from a legal perspective.

In a different world I may have become a lawyer but I'm too sensitive and too much in search of harmony and people getting along that law is by all accounts I've heard not for people like me. But I digress.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by skies_

My take on this might be really different, but I always think CBT is about building defense mechanisms. Rationalization, reaction formation, omnipotence....grandiosity, etc. The same stuff that I get rid of in my therapy!! (to be replaced with healthier defenses)

Then the underlying self structure remains (i.e., feeling powerless).

Another slant on this is that people are not equal in their choices. Just a random example: someone with severe impulse control liability might have a hell of a lot more difficulty in choosing to not have a drink than someone without impulse control problems. Maybe that person needs compassion rather than to be told that they have the same choices that everyone else has? I think that can be troubling for some of us.

Some people also have a really harsh superego, and I can see this type of approach strengthening that rather than weakening it, which is unhealthy for that person. Then there are those of us who have been chronically guilt tripped by a parent; so the times when we are struggling and making the wrong choice/not choosing can make us feel really guilty for not being able to do what we're 'supposed to do' (which relates to the superego thing).

I'm glad it works for some people, but I guess I just don't get it.

Just my two cents.

The topic really cuts right to one of my central concerns in life. Growing up in a somewhat religious family, the story of Adam and Eve was metaphorically interpreted for me often as the story of freedom and choice and responsibility, something essential about what it meant to be human. When I went for therapy, again this same issue came up, freedom, choice, responsibility, but from a different perspective, of course. On to your post: it's disturbingly lovely how much of what you say is what I should have said in my previous post because much of it are my exact thoughts and feelings!

For one, I have at times debated with people who seem to see the issue of choice and freedom as black and white, as either having a choice or not. I say choice can be qualitatively different. People with a severe mental disturbance or in very difficult situations and environments, do not have the same kind of choice as others do or they do in normal circumstances. Or perhaps I can say they objectively do but not subjectively. Neurosis and psychosis are not clearly different. The break with reality is not as simple as black and white. So it's not like psychotics don't, neurotics do. There are shades of grey.

Similarly, people who are addicted to, say, heroin, who "choose" to stop it, are fighting a monstrosity most people dare not understand. That is not the same choice as me deciding to stop eating chocolate wafers for a month. Similarly, I have OCD and sometimes the compulsion is amazingly powerful. I still have the same objective choices (e.g .walk away from it) but subjectively I require more power. Same with impulse disorders you mentioned. And a disempowered choice, fighting against too much constraints, that doesn't feel like a real choice to me.

A real choice that goes with subjective power would give me hope. It won't be some intellectual concept out there which I can't feel. Surely I can choose to do jumping jacks in a crowded mall completely naked, or bungee jump, or stand up to mom and dad, but those are not exactly the same choices. All are physically doable but psychologically require different strengths. I still find the debate about choices as very valuable because many times we overlook choices, so to know that, for instance, me going out in public completely nude being a tough choice, it tells me things about who I am and what I value and how I was raised. What I'm against though, is people saying all choices are the same. Or just because somebody did something amazing or brave, it says something about them and their conscious choices, that they are better people somehow. Sure, some people take more risks and are more empowered but let's not make judgements till we really get to know them and see how aware they were of dangers and how much of it was preparation or habit or ignorance or being told what to do.

As for your other point, oh this is so dear to my heart, I have a harsh superego, even as a kid, which was part of the reason I became preoccupied with religion and right and wrong, something that my family found troublesome. They relied on religious to find peace and comfort and meaning, and for me it was instead all about feeding my superego to judge me even more harshly.

So recently when I went for therapy after PTSD (my sibling severely ill and suicidal and hospitalized) and my T was talking about my choices and how what I was doing (even in victimized position where I felt powerless and helpless) was in fact affecting people around me in a negative way, things actually got much worse for me. She was trying to empower me to get me out of the victim mode and instead I ended up feeling shamed, judged, and my survival guilt (due to PTSD) went out of control. I became suicidal, started to doubt every single thing I was doing, told my therapist on several occasions that I feel like everything I do is selfish and it would be better if I did not exist, like why I should occupy space, take up someone's air, why should I get a volunteer position either (I could be depriving someone else from that position and that person may be so depressed, this would push them over the edge and kill themselves).

I could not feel pleasure and when I did, I felt guilty. I had no right to feel pleasure. It was a dangerous feeling. I could as easily had been my sibling or somebody who had died or was in much greater pain. I was too lucky. I could any moment lose what I had. Suddenly I had started to feel there was no protection for me and no God and even parents had came up way short (out of their fear they had unintentionally done things to make my sibling worse)I could not allow myself to feel anger or communicate it for for fear of hurting others. I felt even my body language would make others upset. I was in a prison. I started to make notes about everything I did, almost as if I was a criminal and a detective at the same time, watching myself commit crimes left and right. I felt responsible for my subconscious, if I laughed at TV show (what did it mean, how would my laughter affect others around me, was the joke appropriate to laugh at? Did I deserve to laugh, who said it? etc) My therapist saying I mattered meant nothing. She herself was human like me, could as easily get sick and die.

It was nightmarish life. My therapist had wanted to give me more power and options and choices, but she did it in a really bad way, unaware of the state I was in. I forgave her. I'm not easy to read. I would cry a lot and had dozens of panic attacks everyday and never left the home, but she was trying to get me out of that, and how do you do that? It's not easy. She meant well. But I was in a such a tough position, I felt I had no defenses against my superego. It devoured me. I have not fully recovered but I'm 60-70% better. Still have nightmares and I'm on several meds for anxiety, depression, PTSD and OCD.

I'm sorry for going way off but thank you so very much for making the post that you did, I can talk about this in another thread or PM and I'm sorry to the OP for this tangent but it is relevant to your post, it's about choice, it's about quality of choice and power that comes with it, about conscious vs unconscious, and judging, shaming, or empowering.

[archipelago]

People don't choose to be neglected and abused and assaulted. People don't choose to have intrusive traumatic memories, or any of the symptoms that are all part of the structure of the brain. People don't choose to hear voices. People don't choose to have vegetative depression. People don't choose to dissociate (or whatever defense mechanisms that come up automatically for protection).

The language of choice is an ideology that is ingrained in mostly American (or Western capitalist) cultures that emphasize the individual as a distinct, volitional being, who acts on his own according to his mind.

In reality, people are interdependent, intersubjective, relational, and deeply influenced by social forces way beyond what they can control. We like to believe we have control, but there are vast areas in which we don't. We might be able to have a shift in attitude toward a situation that we cannot control, like acceptance versus denial, but even those are not necessarily available as choices to all people at all times.