[JaneC]

I have a real problem with advocating for myself, in many situations....and I feel very ashamed about this.

Over the last week I had a classmate at university treating me very badly and I struggled to tell her to stop. It wasn't until I had spoken to friends and then my T that I mustered the courage to say something directly to her.

Last night, I treated my boy & I out for dinner. A man came over and asked how long we would be with our table and I said we had just ordered dessert and so it may be a little while, so sorry no he couldn't have the table. He stood over me and leaned down and told me it was a special occasion and couldn't I just move, he'd pay for our deserts. I just wanted to tell him no(this was a huge treat for my boy & I, and especially big for me to allow myself to 'self care' after a horrid emotional time). Anyway.....I ended up giving in as he kept badgering me! He touched my sons hand and tried to give him money which really pissed me off and I clearly told him to not touch my boy!

But once again I couldn't stand up for myself! I felt humiliated, embarrassed and ashamed at myself.

I am a great advocate for others, and always used to be able to do this for myself, but since becoming quite unwell 4 odd years ago, I can no longer do this.

I know all about effective assertiveness and how to ask for what I need, but when my emotions/feelings are activated I find I feel fearful and end up freezing and just take whatever is happening to me. (I am feeling very embarrassed and ashamed even admitting to this here, I feel like such a useless failure!)

Does any one else struggle with this? What do you do?

I do struggle in this. Dealing with a car salesman once caused me to dissociate once and it was the first time I lost time (in a real documented way)...

I find this situation to be so foreign to my experiences here in US.... Where were the employees of the restaurant? Why would they let someone into the seating area if there wasn't a table for them? If someone was bothering me at a restaurant I would expect the staff to take care of it for me.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by Readytostop

I do struggle in this. Dealing with a car salesman once caused me to dissociate once and it was the first time I lost time (in a real documented way)...

I find this situation to be so foreign to my experiences here in US.... Where were the employees of the restaurant? Why would they let someone into the seating area if there wasn't a table for them? If someone was bothering me at a restaurant I would expect the staff to take care of it for me.

Oh, they had been seated at another table, but wanted mine because it was a booth. The staff came over just as I was moving and told me I certainly did not have to move, it made me feel even more embarrassed to be caught in 'scene' in front of the entire restaurant!! The staff felt awful for not catching it sooner.....they paid for our meal almost entirely and gave my boy a gift also.

I was just more worried about being embarrassed and then stopping myself crying....which happens when I feel overwhelmed by my emotions. Stupid PTSD blah!

[Aloneandafraid]

Hi Jane - I am so sorry you had to deal with this horrid experience in the restaurant last night. This is really bad and I would struggle with that situation too. I too have had a really bad situation with a friends and her parents and their son who is 11 (the same age as my son) and I haven't stood up for myself. They have actually done this three times now so now i am pulling back and feel awful as they are ignoring me! It's a really horrible situation and is affecting our boys. I never stick up for myself and let them walk all over me. My H calls me a doormat. I relate. I always "freeze" as well (esp when my H yells at me) so know exactly how you feel.

I wish I knew what to do to get over this but I don't. I am so sorry you had to go through that last night on top of everything else you are dealing with. You are not alone (I don't know if this helps?) I send you love and all best wishes. Keep strong.

Thinking of you. aaa xxxx

Jane...that was intimidation and bullying... Plain and simple!
The restaurant should have asked the guy to leave.

I have stood in front of a mirror when no one is home and practiced saying No ...in different tones of voices... And at different volumes...

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by Readytostop

Jane...that was intimidation and bullying... Plain and simple!
The restaurant should have asked the guy to leave.

I have stood in front of a mirror when no one is home and practiced saying No ...in different tones of voices... And at different volumes...

Yeah, bullying obviously sets me off. Unfortunately no the first time this has happened for me. So bad that I couldn't model good behaviour for my son!

Did the practising thing work for you? Not sure it would for me......

[marmaduke]

I have struggled with this most of my life. Totally unable to stand up for myself, caused by my mother, who from ever since I can remember told me I was a burden, an embarrassment, fat, ugly and stupid. "Who.Would.EVER.Like.YOU." She'd say. I use to feel like hiding, curling up in a dark corner so no one need see me.
Oh, how I hated myself. I was bullied at home, bullied at school. I was so quiet and withdrawn. So weak, so useless.

But no more!

This inability to stand your ground is caused by low self esteem. 'I'm so unimportant, so unspecial I'm embarrassed and ashamed at myself.
Toxic shame is the culprit.

Now I'm older, and have practiced much self help I stand tall and look the world in the eye. I AM JUST AS SPECIAL AS EVERYONE ELSE. I have to remind myself of this point often, even now.
If you can work on raising your self esteem, reducing insecurities, standing up for yourself will become much easier.

YOU ARE IMPORTANT. YOU ARE WORTHY. REMEMBER THIS.

[JaneC]

AAA.... gosh I'm sorry that you are struggling with this too. People can be so hard to deal with sometimes!
to you sweetie.

[Aloneandafraid]

I relate to so much to your posts, Jane. thank you for posting. Take good care of yourself too.

[marmaduke]

Readytostop
I have stood in front of a mirror when no one is home and practiced saying No ...in different tones of voices... And at different volumes...
This does help, but techniques like this have to be practiced every day for a long time before they get absorbed into the subconscious ( thats what I've found) it really works, if you persevere.

[lumisho]

Yes. I am not social at all in real life and that causes me alot alot of problems and a weak personality.

For example, yesterday my uncle ( Who doesn't hate us but doesn't like us mostly because he think we are financially blessed more than him) he was laughing at me and making fun of me and being sarcastic for no reason. He make it sound like in a friendly way but it is not. I sat there on my chair smiling and not saying a word. I hated it but Thought it was better not to talk back.

My friend wants us to go out but with other friends (whom are not actually friends, i just know their name and they are the same age).
She begged me and said we will not be able to meet alot in the future, I couldn't say no though I literally hate being surrounded by people. I have to wear that fake smile all the time and try hard to stay calm and not walk away.

There was that girl whom she call herself my friend. Last year before some lessons, she asked me to give her my homework to write it back in her notebook. That was so horrible and I couldn't do a thing.
Now that I am going to uni, guess wont see her again. hope so

I am saving money to buy a new device. My brother always like (lend me some cash and I will return it in no time, please) and sometimes Mom (they need money not for urget things). of course I lend them though I need the money badly as I need my new device before uni starts which is in less than a month. I had around 2500 pounds and now I only have 200. my new device has to wait.

There are alot of situations like these. I feel like if I didn't do what they please, I would feel horrible.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

I have struggled with this most of my life. Totally unable to stand up for myself, caused by my mother, who from ever since I can remember told me I was a burden, an embarrassment, fat, ugly and stupid. "Who.Would.EVER.Like.YOU." She'd say. I use to feel like hiding, curling up in a dark corner so no one need see me.
Oh, how I hated myself. I was bullied at home, bullied at school. I was so quiet and withdrawn. So weak, so useless.

Yes, I had a somewhat similar childhood. Never ever good enough, as well as many other negative adjectives to describe who SHE thought I was. I lost any idea of who I actually was!

At 38, a few short years ago, my mother kindly reminded me that she never wanted me anyway! I was the ultimate burden. I wonder how she could mean that?

I have a lot of work to do!

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by lumisho

There are alot of situations like these. I feel like if I didn't do what they please, I would feel horrible.

Oh, I am sorry that you also have to deal with this. It really is so hard!

And such a shame that we feel so worried perhaps about others opinions and others wants and needs than our own! I do hope that those of us that struggle with this can sort it out soon!

[Partless]

I'll be honest with you, at first, given the title, I expected to read something more dramatic, perhaps about someone standing up to their long time abusers. Then strangely enough, when I finished reading the description, I had a strong reaction myself, as if I was triggered big time. I had to lie down and do some breathing exercise. I could not understand.

Then you mentioned PTSD in passing and suddenly I realized, triggers come in all shapes and forms, because I have PTSD too. Do you mind me asking what kind of trauma? Mine is family related. Sometimes somebody could look at my interaction with my parents and think nothing took place at all, just a normal discussion, yet I'll be upset for several days afterwards and taking sedating pills just to calm down. It's like having gaping wounds. Even a feather can land on an open wound and send shocks through the body. All day you'll have triggers, big and small.

I can not tell you not to feel so upset or ashamed over what happened, as much as a part of me likes to make light of the situation and also tell you to not be hard on yourself. But how can I do that when I myself have strong reactions to situation and when people tell me it was not such a big deal I feel angry like nobody cares or nobody understands me. But perhaps I need to make light of your experience only to distance myself from your pain. Cause I been there. The pain is unbearable. Cuts to the core of who you are, the part that says what you want or don't want, to have your voice heard. What use is freedom of speech if we can't talk or advocate for ourselves. At least in certain countries people can blame the government. When you are free and don't stand up for yourself, all you're left with is personal shame over personal failure. It eats away at your soul.

[nicoleflynn]

Change that word, "can't" to....choose.....it takes time to change habits. I struggled with it. You can train yourself to stand up for yourself....every time an incident comes up that you know you should address; think about how you want to respond. The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is an excellent resource. Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud is also excellent.

[iheartjacques]

I've had to learn to be assertive. In some situations, my husband says I turn into a Rottweiler if people push me too far ha ha

[VioletBubble]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Readytostop
I have stood in front of a mirror when no one is home and practiced saying No ...in different tones of voices... And at different volumes...
This does help, but techniques like this have to be practiced every day for a long time before they get absorbed into the subconscious ( thats what I've found) it really works, if you persevere.

I did this as well, and found that it really did help. I never tried it in the mirror, but I practiced just saying "no" repeatedly out loud while alone, with different tones of voice, different levels of force, sometimes recalling events where I wish I had said no. And finally, after many months of walking around my home, saying no, no, no over and over, one day I found my "no" came out quite easily. Just came right out. I was a little shaky after the first time (as the person I said no to was stunned and none to pleased) but I managed to do it. It's been easier since then. I think I first learned to practice this way from a book, "The Nice Girl Syndrome," by Beverly Engel. But still, when my emotions get really pushed, I have a hard time with it.

Also, as another poster said (sorry, new here, still learning the system!), it really does come down to believing that you are just as important and worthy as anyone else, and that you, your needs, your preferences, etc, matter just as much as anyone's. Of course, believing that can be a huge uphill battle for many of us...

The guy in the restaurant was just a jerk using intimidation and bullying to get his way. He should have been asked to leave by the restaurant for harassing the other diners. Pushing you over and over again was outrageous, and he obviously knew what he was doing. I wonder if he would have tried that with a man? Sorry you had to deal with that on your special outing.

[SnakeCharmer]

Jane, I have a slightly different take on this. I think you DID stand up for yourself where it was really important. You told him not to touch your son. You advocated for yourself, as a mother.

When you get right down to it, the most important part of that interaction was to tell him to leave your son alone. You did that. You stood up where it counted.

I clearly told him to not touch my boy!

If you look at the entire situation, at what's essential and at what's an inconvenience, you stood up exactly at the point where it was essential.

You feel bad about yourself for not standing up to the entire situation and showing that guy that he couldn't have the booth just because he wanted it. But I'm proud of you for standing up to him, as he was hulking over you, and clearly telling him not to touch your boy. You showed your son you're there to protect him.

All the rest ... it wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. The guy was rude. He wanted a booth for his special occasion, he would pay for your desserts for inconveniencing you. None of that was Big In The Grand Scheme. What was Big was standing up as a mother and telling him to not touch your son. You did great!

It was emotional and distressing and triggering, but even under those circumstances you managed to do the most important thing. And that's what really counts. I think you did damn well in a difficult situation.

Sometimes, when we actually have a major accomplishment, we can't see it because of all the emotional debris surrounding it. When you clear away all the debris, you definitely had a major accomplishment in standing up where it's essential. You protected your son. Nothing else is all that important compared to that.

In time, with more practice, you'll get better at standing up without feeling so much distress. It helps if we can acknowledge each success as we go and, in my opinion, telling that hulking man to not touch your boy was a major success. I'm saying that from the standpoint of an adult and mother and also from the standpoint of that little girl inside me that sometimes needed my mother to protect me from strangers touching. You did that. Good job!

[someone321]

I totally relate... I can take care of everything for anyone except of myself. If someone has any problem, I can do whatever is needed to help; however, regarding myself I even cannot call to make a doctor appointment (I can do that for others without a problem). It's just hilarious... To avoid such situations, I always was a year representative, at school, university etc. (like for 10 years at least) because it was much easier for me to arrange something for the whole department than just for myself.

Now, I still organize many things at work, calling usually is done by my H for me... I can send e-mails and if it is really a must I can prepare myself and go and talk (never call). This solution is not perfect but works somehow, at the situation as yours, I guess I'd behave very similar, I guess I'd give up the sit immediately if I was alone, if with a kid - then it depends how much I'd think that I had to "defend" the place for him... I have no good solution for it unfortunately... I just avoid such situations as much as possible or try being around others when it happens...

I am not sure if I agree with SnakeCharmer that you stood up for yourself - maybe unconsciously but I guess, you were telling the guy to not touch your soon to advocate for your son and not for yourself, at least I can imagine myself doing that...

[JustShakey]

Ugh Jane! What a jacka$$!
Please don't feel bad, I think you did well defending yourself and your boy. Remember this is new to you, you're still learning. Go easy on yourself. Next time you're in a situation like this you'll do better, and then better again the next time, until the day will come when you suddenly think to yourself, 'OMG! I just *did* that!? Wow. Go me'. It'll come, it just takes time and practice and believing in yourself. You'll get there, but please don't beat yourself up, especially not when you're working so hard.

And that guy was an utter tool. He tried to give your boy *money*!? Like he could buy anything he wants!? Pig. People like that are not worth worrying about IMNSHO.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by Aloneandafraid

My H calls me a doormat. I relate. I always "freeze" as well (esp when my H yells at me) so know exactly how you feel.

(((Alone)))
Your H is a jacka$$ too. I don't know him, but I know his kind. All those horrid things he says about you - they're not true, but you can make them true by believing them, and that's what he wants. He doesn't want to believe that he has a problem so he makes it about you. You gotta stop letting him do this Alone! Don't be believing his horrible lies. You're a beautiful person and you deserve so much better.

[A18793715]

I'm the exact same way. I have PTSD, family related and last night, my new boyfriend (who doesn't know barely anything about my emotional side) and he was saying how he gets irritated when I complain but I won't stand up for myself, so it's pointless to complain. The whole conversation made my nerves bad the entire car ride home until I could take a Xanax to calm down. He later asked me if he upset me because I got quite but I couldn't even explain why to that either because I have horrible trouble trying to talk to anyone. I'm getting a therapist soon. I'm actually just waiting for his call to set up a date and time.

[Aloneandafraid]

Originally Posted by JustShakey

(((Alone)))
Your H is a jacka$$ too. I don't know him, but I know his kind. All those horrid things he says about you - they're not true, but you can make them true by believing them, and that's what he wants. He doesn't want to believe that he has a problem so he makes it about you. You gotta stop letting him do this Alone! Don't be believing his horrible lies. You're a beautiful person and you deserve so much better.

Thank you so much JustShakey. Your post has really touched me and I think I am beginning to realise it is him that has the problem - not me (although I must stand up for myself); thank you so much for helping me to see this. I really appreciate your support.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by Partless

I'll be honest with you, at first, given the title, I expected to read something more dramatic, perhaps about someone standing up to their long time abusers. Then strangely enough, when I finished reading the description, I had a strong reaction myself, as if I was triggered big time. I had to lie down and do some breathing exercise. I could not understand.

Then you mentioned PTSD in passing and suddenly I realized, triggers come in all shapes and forms, because I have PTSD too. Do you mind me asking what kind of trauma? Mine is family related. Sometimes somebody could look at my interaction with my parents and think nothing took place at all, just a normal discussion, yet I'll be upset for several days afterwards and taking sedating pills just to calm down. It's like having gaping wounds. Even a feather can land on an open wound and send shocks through the body. All day you'll have triggers, big and small.

I can not tell you not to feel so upset or ashamed over what happened, as much as a part of me likes to make light of the situation and also tell you to not be hard on yourself. But how can I do that when I myself have strong reactions to situation and when people tell me it was not such a big deal I feel angry like nobody cares or nobody understands me. But perhaps I need to make light of your experience only to distance myself from your pain. Cause I been there. The pain is unbearable. Cuts to the core of who you are, the part that says what you want or don't want, to have your voice heard. What use is freedom of speech if we can't talk or advocate for ourselves. At least in certain countries people can blame the government. When you are free and don't stand up for yourself, all you're left with is personal shame over personal failure. It eats away at your soul.

I want to start by saying that I am sorry that you also struggle with PTSD and that my post 'triggered' you.

I also want to say, that I have spent time overnight thinking about your post because when I read it I felt utterly invalidated. I know why I did.....you said you wanted to make light of my situation, and that it wasn't 'dramatic enough', and this feeds every time in my history that I was told that whatever happened to me was insignificant, or worse, that I was not truthful.

I will not apologise for not sensationalising a struggle I have for any reader here. I find that it is in the seemingly small(and I do not think the lack of ability to self advocate is small!) that some of the greatest growth can occur, because these things run far deeper to core issues of self that impede ability to achieve our true potential in life. And as you can see by the responses, very many people struggle with similar issues. I believe it is at the heart of the dreadful treatment we have all suffered at one time or another in our lives, and for me this inability(yet!) is because I do not value my own self, I was never shown how to or that I could!

I understand that your reflection spoke volumes about your own struggles and I am glad that you owned that. I am saddened that it was at the expense of invalidating me(and the others that struggle similarly) and my struggles. This is just my own humble reflection and opinion, I felt the need to have a voice here.

You are right, it does eat away at your soul, it certainly has at mine. I hope you, and I, find healing for our souls.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by A18793715

I'm the exact same way. I have PTSD, family related and last night, my new boyfriend (who doesn't know barely anything about my emotional side) and he was saying how he gets irritated when I complain but I won't stand up for myself, so it's pointless to complain. The whole conversation made my nerves bad the entire car ride home until I could take a Xanax to calm down. He later asked me if he upset me because I got quite but I couldn't even explain why to that either because I have horrible trouble trying to talk to anyone. I'm getting a therapist soon. I'm actually just waiting for his call to set up a date and time.

I am sorry that you struggle so, I too would have been hut by comments like those. I am glad that you will have a T soon....in my experience this time around a T has been incredibly helpful. Please take good kind care of yourself.