[JaneC]

This is going to be a bit of a book, I hope you are able to read and give me feedback, support and suggestions. Or alternative interpretations to how I have interpreted what happened if you think they are valid.

It took courage, but I asked my T today about approaching talking about the list I gave him of past trauma. This has had me super stressed since I sent the list. He asked what I was most worried about at the moment regarding talking about it.

I told him I was most scared that he now finds me disgusting and a bad person. I said that's how I feel about myself, and wanted to know if he does too.

I asked him twice.

The first time he deflected the question and first addressed my second worry(how are we going to start talking about the stuff).

It was a weird session, because we were sitting outside for the first time not in a completely private area. I had requested to try being outside as a coping strategy for later when I become overwhelmed doing trauma work, as I find being outside easier to connect to the present moment, and get out of my head! It was a big step for me to go outside with him anyway we discovered because I had a fear reaction immediately before doing this. He was also out of his comfort zone, and told me on a scale of 10 for feeling weird about being out of his office, he was about a 5!

So I let the question pass as thought maybe he didn't want to discuss it then. When we got back in the office, I asked again. Almost in the same way. I thought I was being clear what I was asking him.

His response has me mad as anything and I all but stormed out after telling, nevermind, doesn't matter it's not important.

Instead of giving a direct answer, he told me that he thought as a person I was/had suffered a lot, that he saw I blamed myself and he felt sad about that. I took that to mean he found me sad, and that because he didn't disagree with the disgusting and bad question that he DOES FIND ME DISGUSTING AND BAD NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tried to ask in another way but it was the end of session and he seemed to not be getting it! I said the nevermind stuff, got up and was about to walk out but turned and told him as he sat in his chair, sorry, have a good weekend then walked out.

I drove to pick up my boy from school and flicked him an email telling him how annoyed I am and wished he could have given me a direct answer. ****! He'll probably not see that till Monday now as it is late Friday afternoon here.

What a frikkin mess. I feel soo angry and really disappointed and not sure where to go from here. Suggestions?

[Leah123]

My suggestion is that you interpret this as optimistically as possible, because right now, you're interpeting as pessimistically as humanly possible. You are projecting your shame onto him, I think, and I think that both because of what you've written and because it's the textbook classic reaction for abuse survivors doing early disclosure work in situations like this.

In my opinion he clearly was empathizing with you, and he may very well have thought it was not even necessary to directly answer 'yes or no' as the question, honestly, is kind of preposterous.

It's a sign of how much you've internalized the pain and shame of this experience of abuse to be able to think that he could really, truly possibly see you as disgusting and bad.

My advice is to take good care of yourself this weekend. Pamper yourself, be loving, kind, compassionate nurturing. Then go in Monday and say, "T, this may sound strange, but I need you to answer the following question with a yes or no only. Do you think I am disgusting? And do you think I am bad?"

And let him answer.

It's amazing how muddled these things get when we're feeling so defensive and scared disclosing horrors.

Big hugs, I'm so sorry you're stressed and I know you're not disgusting or bad!!!!!! (Jane)

[JaneC]

Thanks Leah.

It has happened in other situations with him, that I have needed him to be as direct and blunt as he possibly can be, as clear as possible...... because I can not hear anything apart from my internal messages at times.

I won't be seeing him until next Friday, a whole week to dwell. I'll try not to though, but that is harder almost than getting blood from a stone! IN my case anyways. I wish I wasn't finished my essays for university for this half semester, at least then I'd have something to focus on!

BTW.....I despise that I am acting in a text book fashion.

[Leah123]

I'm sorry, lol, I hate acting in textbook fashion too, but I didn't mean to make you bristle, I just wanted to.... explain how common it was to feel the way you do and how very very hard it is to share trauma. It's brave what you're doing, and getting as upset as you are is normal. That's all.

What really really sucks is that there are enough abuse survivors to warrant textbooks.

I have a horrible time not dwelling, so I do sympathize.

If you need busy work... I have a 1,500 word report due Sunday... am having serious writer's block and no topic yet, really... interested? (I just got scared for a minute that you wouldn't get that I was totally joking, I shoulda winked or something maybe, ha.)

[shezbut]

Originally Posted by JaneC

Instead of giving a direct answer, he told me that he thought as a person I was/had suffered a lot, that he saw I blamed myself and he felt sad about that.

I completely understand what you are saying, and your T does too, but I know that's hard to believe. I heard similar words many times by my T. It took some time before I was able to understand that my T wasn't putting me down.

He was simply saying that he was sorry that I felt so miserable and hated myself. My T understood that his opinion wasn't going to change me. He therefore left it at that. I came straight out and told him that I needed him to say "I am a good person or I am a bad person" one or the other...nothing vague. It anguished me to say such a thing, and I hated to do it! But, I finally did. {Answer: Yes, in his opinion, I am a good person. I let it go for a little while.}

In my experience, it takes time for you to handle the charged emotions. Just keep going to therapy, keep talking about those thoughts and memories. It will become easier. Very gentle hugs to you. Take care!

[HazelGirl]

I want to add that some T's don't like answering that question because they want your opinion to change, not to have your worth based on their opinion. So rather than allowing you to base your goodness or badness on what he thinks, he wants you to see the goodness in yourself without needing him to think you are good.

[kraken1851]

Jane, I absolutely understand how terrible this must feel. I just want to say that as a rule my t would answer in the exact same way. I have a hard time explaining this in English, but he would never say something along the lines of "I like you, because you're a great person" or "I don't like you, because you're a horrible person". As a rule he does not express validation/invalidation like that. He will always tell me what his feelings about something I have expressed are, showing me that he is not distant and that he does care. But he will never judge in any way (positively or negatively). So if I tell him "my body is hideous and I look terrible" he will not say "no you don't", he will tell me that the fact I think about myself in these terms touches / affects him.

The good thing is, I know he will never pass negative judgment on me (or at least, he will keep it to himself, which is fine by me) - of course, I also struggle with the fact that he's never going to give me that "easy way out" of telling me, what a great person I really am . I have to learn to value myself.

So long story short - the "evasive" response he gave you from my perspective does not have to mean that he judges you in any way.

Edit: In the meantime HazelGirl said it perfectly and much shorter

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by Leah123

I'm sorry, lol, I hate acting in textbook fashion too, but I didn't mean to make you bristle, I just wanted to.... explain how common it was to feel the way you do and how very very hard it is to share trauma. It's brave what you're doing, and getting as upset as you are is normal. That's all.

What really really sucks is that there are enough abuse survivors to warrant textbooks.

I have a horrible time not dwelling, so I do sympathize.

If you need busy work... I have a 1,500 word report due Sunday... am having serious writer's block and no topic yet, really... interested? (I just got scared for a minute that you wouldn't get that I was totally joking, I shoulda winked or something maybe, ha.)

Honestly, you didn't make me bristle Leah. I was just reflecting, as I do with T in fact, that I hate being either textbook or predictable. Seems we share that.

And as much as I may like to write a 1000 word report right now to distract myself, I just submitted my 2 final 1200 & 1000 essays last week.....so, yeah, I'll pass. Lol. Thanks.

[JaneC]

Shezbut, thanks. I see you can relate, it helps to not feel so alone!

Hazel & kraken.......thanks also. I agree, what you said was/is his intention. He wants me to come to a place where I no longer feel that way about myself, he said as much. My response was, well of course T, DOH! I also hope that I can get to that place, why elsewould I be in therapy anyway. (Yes, my inner teenage brat wasin the room today, I told T that at the start! But refused to talk about it).

But I needed more, I needed him to tell me what he really thinks!

[kraken1851]

I understand! I have come to accept that my t will not change his rules for me (this is one of his boundaries, and I think it has a protective function for himself and for me). But yeah, it's difficult sometimes!

[RedSun]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

I want to add that some T's don't like answering that question because they want your opinion to change, not to have your worth based on their opinion. So rather than allowing you to base your goodness or badness on what he thinks, he wants you to see the goodness in yourself without needing him to think you are good.

I think this is it, perfectly.
I asked the same of my t, a while ago, and she said 'because you think that I feel the same about you that you feel about you?' I said yes, then she went into why I feel that way....great therapy but sometimes we just want yes or no!
Frickin T's

[someone321]

I'm sorry that your session didn't go well

I can relate to always assuming the worst from T. Yesterday we actually discussed that, I took the e-mail which she sent me and read it in to ways: one as she probably meant, calm, happy, relaxing etc. and the second way how I actually understood it i.e. that she was annoyed, frustrated, tired etc. She was quite amazed that the same short text, read in two different ways can have so different meaning and we agreed that based on my experience it is not surprising that I'd always assume the worst scenario and I'd always read her e-mails in as negative way as possible - maybe you do something similar?

Your T didn't say: "no, you are not disgusting", so you automatically assumed that he thinks that you are? And perhaps even if he said that you are not, you could feel that he just said so because he didn't have any choice? (which T would say to the client that they find them disgusting?).

In my case, T said that now she'll be much more careful in saying/writing things which can be understood differently and I suggested that maybe if at the beginning she adds something positive or nice maybe I would be able to switch that she's not my worst enemy She also said that she had no idea that I can understand thing in this way, that she hopes that when we work together longer, we'd be able to understand each other better but that by the time, I should always let her now if she "annoys" me anyhow. Thus, maybe you could discuss it also with your T? I guess he wasn't aware that his lack of a direct response, for you meant a very clear response.

[JaneC]

Thank you all for the replies.

My T replied.

He said that he could see that I was angry, and acknowledged that this was important. He told me " I have never thought of you as disgusting or bad, not now and not in the past." He also told me that he hoped once I could step back from how I'm feeling now, and the assumptions I made, that I'd be able to look back and remember how we have treated each other over the last 19 months.

So, great right that he doesn't think those things about me. It's just me.

But now, have I done something wrong by expressing my anger? I mean, I didn't raise my voice. I just told him by email I was angry. Did I hurt his feelings by not remembering how he has treated me from the beginning? He so stepped out of his comfort zone for me today, and I throw this back in his face.

This is so completely exasperating!!! My mind is a mess.

[kraken1851]

You haven't done anything wrong - on the contrary. By telling him how you feel you have given him a chance to react adequately. Otherwise he can only guess and try to read your mind.

And yay for the nice response to your email .

[Aloneandafraid]

Hi Jane. You have done absolutely nothing wrong. Good for you for emailing and letting him know how you are feeling. And how lovely that he responded so quickly. I think this is a really pivotal point in your T journey and the next few sessions will hopefully work around this past session and your feelings about yourself.

I had a similar conversation with my T based around my self loathing and she reacted in a very similar way to yours. I felt hurt and disappointed too but as Red75 and Hazelgirl said in their posts, although this isn't what we want to hear, they want su to see the goodness in ourselves.

Bloody painful and super exasperating. Hang in there Jane - you are doing so well.

i hope you can have a good weekend. Take care.

Jane, I'm so glad you emailed him. I think the comment about looking back to how he treated you in the past isn't because you hurt his feeling or anything like that.... I think perhaps he was showing you a way to deal with those feeling in the future... A way to challenge those thoughts, feelings assumptions.

[MotownJohnny]

Jane, I'm glad you resolved it. The comment I was going to make is that T's in general are hesitent to offer opinions that are value judgements. They don't want to offend the patient, worse, they don't want to contribue to the problems, issues, negative feelings in general. At least, that is my take on it. The way your T responded yesterday was like that - not answering the question of whether he thought you were disgusting - because if he did, that would be a value judgement thing. When pushed, he did. Sometimes it's hard to know their feelings, some are better at putting on the poker face and acting unemotionally during therapy sessions than others.

Jane, you are far from disgusting. Dare I say this - if you weren't 10,000 miles away I would ask you out. Hope that's not out of line, I find you a pretty awesome woman with a Hell of a lot of admirable qualities, not the least of which is surviving all of this. I hope you don't find that creepy, I'm not a cad, I pride myself on ALWAYS being a gentleman. I just wanted you to know the depths of how much I think of you. I wish I could meet someone like you here, maybe in time.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by Readytostop

Jane, I'm so glad you emailed him. I think the comment about looking back to how he treated you in the past isn't because you hurt his feeling or anything like that.... I think perhaps he was showing you a way to deal with those feeling in the future... A way to challenge those thoughts, feelings assumptions.

I think you have something here RTS, thanks. He asked me to look at my deeper knowledge of how he has treated me.

I do find that my in the moment reactions are because I am triggered by past hurt and experiences. I try to not react or act upon them, but it seems now, when I am in therapy, that I am no longer as god at hiding those reactions from T. Hiding any hurt, and feeling or emotion.........I suppose T would think this is a good thing. It doesn't feel good, but that is where the useful insights and learning happens. Right?

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

Jane, I'm glad you resolved it. The comment I was going to make is that T's in general are hesitent to offer opinions that are value judgements. They don't want to offend the patient, worse, they don't want to contribue to the problems, issues, negative feelings in general. At least, that is my take on it. The way your T responded yesterday was like that - not answering the question of whether he thought you were disgusting - because if he did, that would be a value judgement thing. When pushed, he did. Sometimes it's hard to know their feelings, some are better at putting on the poker face and acting unemotionally during therapy sessions than others.

Jane, you are far from disgusting. Dare I say this - if you weren't 10,000 miles away I would ask you out. Hope that's not out of line, I find you a pretty awesome woman with a Hell of a lot of admirable qualities, not the least of which is surviving all of this. I hope you don't find that creepy, I'm not a cad, I pride myself on ALWAYS being a gentleman. I just wanted you to know the depths of how much I think of you. I wish I could meet someone like you here, maybe in time.

I have taken my time thinking how to respond to this Johnny. I know that your intentions are to be the supportive person that all us pc friends are in the PTSD forum, so thank you.

I just wanted to express I am so far from even entertaining a relationship no matter how lovely a man may be, not in the forseable future anyway. I have to focus on myself and my challenges, and find healing and rebuilding before that could ever happen. The thought of one is a little 'triggery' for me! So I needed to say something not because of you the person(you are a good guy), but because the things you expressed are difficult for me to hear on a much deeper level.

And also, remember, whoever we meet here at PC, we are only seeing a small facet of the person as a whole. I may well have two heads, stinky breath, warts all over my face and be the witch from hell!! And so may you, OE, or anyone else on these forums for that matter! Hahaha

[Open Eyes]

" And so may you, OE, or anyone else on these forums for that matter! Hahaha" quote Jane C.

Who me? A witch with warts and bad breath? Well, I feel like that most days how did you know?

I actually envy those of the members that are single because working through PTSD is so consuming, being in a relationship would make it too hard. I can't blame anyone for not being able to think about a relationship on a deep level when the PTSD is raging, I have a relationship and it is very hard on the relationship and it makes it harder for me to work through it as I tend to feel guilty.

I have to say that it is not unusual to feel a kind of caring bond to another person struggling with PTSD, it is such a deep emotional challenge that people who don't experience it just don't understand.

I was disappointed that I could not find a "live" support group around me to go to, but there are times where I can see that while it is nice to have support in person, it is nice to have the safety to share at a distance too. I can see "why" often with the AA groups they have meetings "just for men" and "just for women" and tell different members not to have relationships and focus more on personal healing. Now that I have connected the way I have with others who struggle deeply like I do, I can see how at an AA meeting two people could connect emotionally and should not, but instead focus more on their healing.

I will say though, I can identify with the "need" to just have a hug and have found myself wishing at times that I was close enough to the other person to just give them a well deserved "hug".

[pmbm]

JaneC,

I am so glad that your therapist responded and told you that no he does not find you disgusting. I know that many therapists would want us to come to this assessment by ourselves, but it takes a really long time to get there. I just asked my therapist in an email the other day if she really thinks I can heal. She emailed me back and said yes, but when I went to my next session, she reiterated a common theme in my therapy. She said that she will always think I am good, beautiful, capable, and lovable..and she doesn't mind telling me, but I need to learn to tell myself and to believe those things. She says the shame is on the abusers, and that there is nothing shameful or gross about me. I'm really beginning to believe that, but it is still very helpful to hear it.