[scorpiosis37]

I brought up the topic of love in therapy yesterday. I told my T about a RL friend of mine who said "I love you" to her T and her T responded by saying "there is no place for love in therapy." I was afraid my T might say the same thing, but I felt like I just had to know-- either way. T and I have been talking about our relationship a lot in therapy lately and I truly "feel" she loves me. I feel like she shows it by tearing up at times, by texting me to see if my first day of teaching a new class went well, and by telling me that I deserve all the things I didn't get as a child. But, at the same time, I was afraid I might be wrong. I was afraid that, as the client, what I was reading as "love" might be the effect of (platonic/maternal) transference or attachment. I just wanted to know. I wanted to know whether I understood our therapy relationship the same way she did. So, I asked.

Without even blinking, she told me that she loves me. She said love is not automatically given as part of therapy but, because of the relationship we have built over the past four years, she has grown to love me. She said love is appropriate in therapy when it develops as a natural human response to making a connection with a client over time, within the confines of the professional relationship. She also said she normally "shows" her love rather than verbalizing it, and she asked if I had felt it in certain moments-- and she listed the exact moments when I HAD felt it. It felt so validating to know that she understood our relationship the same way I did. And, even though I thought she loved me, I thought she might not say so. I thought she might say that it would not be "professional" to say whether she did or not. So, even though I wanted to hear her say it-- I didn't think she ever would.

Hearing her say it also filled some of the need I have for nurturing. A few weeks ago, I talked with my T about her boundaries around touch and, while she gives hugs and will sit next to me, she won't put her arm around me or hold me. I thought I could only feel nurtured through physical touch, but I actually felt nurtured when she said she loved me. My love language has always been touch, so I didn't know I could get so much out of a verbal comment. I think her statement was more powerful because she teared up when she said it. I really could "feel" it. It was one of the best sessions I've ever had.

"no place for love in therapy"? How very sad. My t is like yours... She explained it in a very similar way, that there is a special kind of love in the therapeutic relationship. And she doesn't say it, either, she shows it too. I'm glad you had a good, nurturing session!

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[archipelago]

Believe it or not, I totally get what you are conveying, the whole process and what it means. My therapist has said that he knows I love him, implying that he loves me back, but he just hasn't said it. I guess they are really careful for various reasons. At one point, he surprised me just like your therapist and said he loves me. I don't think I had asked him. I think I had said something about how the relationship couldn't be reciprocal, and he said it could be and then told me he loved me.

We talked about what we meant afterwards. It actually wasn't transference or anything else. More like respect, affection, and caring that had deepened enough over time to be called love.

By coincidence, I was just remembering that moment because he signed a text yesterday with "fondly" completely out of the blue. It struck me and reminded me of special moments we have shared. Some are not really about my needs but are moments of playfulness and joy that are spontaneous expressions of who we are at the core of our being, yet casually and with complete trust arise.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by artemis-within

"no place for love in therapy"? How very sad.

I think it is good there are therapists who feel like that to match up with clients such as myself who consider the whole notion of love and therapy combined to be horrifying, unnecessary and repugnant.
If you like it fine, but it is not sad for those of us for whom it is not required or desired.

[archipelago]

Stopdog, I get your point. I believe the overarching thing, at least what I myself meant, is that this is not an expected thing, but rather unexpected and therefore surprising, or catches one off guard. It is seems clear that therapists do not have these feelings for all clients. Who knows some may not have any and actively be against it. Still there are some who may not think it part of the process, who nevertheless develop special feelings over time with particular clients. Some call that love, other some sort of caring. It is a profession that is not just mental but often about connection. Humans who really like each other and work very closely may end up with a little more than liking each other. Expressions of that I have found rare, but it makes sense that they happen.

What a great therapist and therapy relationship you have, Scorposis.
I got such a feeling of warmth from reading your post!

[lilypup]

See, I find that talk of "love" odd and it would make me uncomfortable. I pay my therapist to help me work out problems and learn more about myself. I like my T but do not love her. I feel we can have a productive relationship without love.

Beautiful

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think it is good there are therapists who feel like that to match up with clients such as myself who consider the whole notion of love and therapy combined to be horrifying, unnecessary and repugnant.
If you like it fine, but it is not sad for those of us for whom it is not required or desired.

Stopdog, I kept thinking what a shame it is that we don't always get the best therapy match.

That "no love…" T may be a horror to some of us, but could be a good match for you. Someone who shares your philosophy on the role a therapist should play. I only wish we could see what a therapist is like in advance before investing all that time and money!!

[Partless]

This is a touchy subject and my first reaction is that it's not an ethical thing for a therapist to do, to say they "love" a patient. They can say they like you, they admire your courage, they respect you, they are amazed or impressed or whatever. But not love. It's a dangerous road to take for both sides, for several reasons, but I think the main one is the possibility of misleading or hurting the client, in the long run.

But I can not say this in a black and white sort of way. I suppose with the right therapist and right client, with a clear understanding of what "I love you" means, I think it can be said. But as far as I know, most therapists prefer not to take that road because of all the complications. There are other ways to show a client you care or that they matter. But in a less personalized and romantic way.

[scorpiosis37]

I'm grateful that my therapist has the skill and awareness to read the relationship I have with her and to know that it is "safe" to respond to my question by saying that she loves me. In the context of our relationship, it is platonic, caring, supportive and a testament to the depth of the emotional and attachment-related work we have done together. I am not looking for her to be something she is not. I am honoring all the ways that she has helped me, been a source of consistency in my life, and given me the extra care I needed to take the 'next step' at moments of transition. I love her for who she can be in my life, and she loves me for the trust I put in her, the emotional risks that I take, and the hard work I put into my therapy. I've grown a lot in the course of the last 4 years and that is the result of my relationship with her. If I didn't love her, and if I didn't feel she loved me, I couldn't have done that work. Not everyone needs that from therapy-- but I do. It would be so unfortunate for some governing body-- who doesn't know me or my T-- to decide it was somehow "unethical" because they were afraid that this kind of safe, platonic, therapeutic love might be misinterpreted by someone who didn't understand it.

[growlycat]

My longtime therapist has told me he loves me and he is very ethical and the sentiment was platonic in every sense. I agree that it can be done therapeutically.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

... If I didn't love her, and if I didn't feel she loved me, I couldn't have done that work. Not everyone needs that from therapy-- but I do. It would be so unfortunate for some governing body-- who doesn't know me or my T-- to decide it was somehow "unethical" because they were afraid that this kind of safe, platonic, therapeutic love might be misinterpreted by someone who didn't understand it.

Yeah which is why I said I find it a touchy subject but that I can't make this a black and white issue. But that's how a lot of things are decided: Whenever there is a serious possibility of unethical behavior, a rule is put into place. Not because somebody thinks EVERY instance of that behavior is going to lead to people getting hurt, but that the likelihood is high. Same applies to a certain level of touching or client interacting with therapist outside the office. Those limits are not for everybody nor are they complete. Heck, there are therapist who can hurt you tremendously without ever saying they love you or touch you in a certain way. That's why those rules are constantly modified and new ones introduced.

[Partless]

Scorpiosis37, I was looking this up online to see what the rules say exactly (could not find it) but came across a 2009 court document and an accusation against a psychologist. I think the expert testimony highlights the potential for unethical behavior but that, as you say, it is certainly not always the case and that other factors should be considered. It reads:

"Dr. Zur testified that a psychologist’s saying to a patient, “I love you,” creates a multiple relationship. But a humanistic psychologist might, nevertheless, say that to a patient. A psychologist with a traditional psychoanalytic orientation would never say that, and it is appropriate for a psychologist with a psychoanalytic orientation to follow his or her orientation and avoid saying such things. It is unfair, however, to impose that stricture on a psychologist who uses a different orientation. That is, it is unfair to conclude that the multiple relationship that results from saying “I love you” always is unethical. Saying that creates a prohibited multiple relationship only if it could reasonably be expected to impair the psychologist’s objectivity, competence, or effectiveness or otherwise risk exploitation or harm"

[growlycat]

One can argue "multiple relationship" but it doesn't make it true. It just makes it a a courtroom tactic.

[growlycat]

Not trying to hassle you Partless. I just feel strongly about the issue. Therapy love saved my life.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by growlycat

Not trying to hassle you Partless. I just feel strongly about the issue. Therapy love saved my life.

Oh did not see it as you hassling me, haha, and also *hugs* to you and and Scorpiosis, I hope my posts did not come across as invalidating your experiences. I have been hurt by a therapist before (not related to "I love you") and so find myself sometimes becoming real vigilant about those kinds of interactions that have possibility of hurting the patient/client.

Let me tell you a story: I remember relating with some close family friends when I was a teenager and these people were from a cultural background where touch and close contact was the norm, so whenever my family and I would go over, I would get hugs and kisses from these older people and I really enjoyed it.

Years later I referred to it in passing on a psych forum and suddenly everybody mentioning potential for abuse and inappropriate touching and all that, and it upset me because I felt people were making these loving memories into something sick or perverted. But later I came to realize that a good number of those posters did not mean to to do that. They were just exposed to those kinds of behavior through stories they read online or their own experiences, and so now looked at every behavior that did not fit the norm with extra care and concern. So it came from care.

Though there are major differences, I like to draw a parallel to the current discussion about hearing "I love you" from a therapist. So that's why instead of focusing on the positive potential, I worry about negative possibilities. But I respect that you feel strongly about this and that others may dream of hearing it from their therapist or that find it is a very powerful experience when/if it does occur.

[archipelago]

Interesting about the multiple relationship as a problem. Makes sense if there is harm involved. Seems unavoidable though. Even in the psychoanalytic world, which sees things in terms of transference/countertransference, a real relationship is acknowledged and necessarily present otherwise the transference/countertransference would have no meaning. Indeed sorting out the difference can be part of the work. When you do that, you end up recognizing the relationship that has formed. And if it is safe and healthy, it seems appropriate to say something about the quality of that relationship. After years of close, intimate work, the possibility that the relationship has a loving quality seems likely. I don't see that quality as confusing or leading to harm. Maybe it is a cultural difference. I don't see the words "I love you" as specific to charged relationships like that of romantic partners. It seems a broadly human expression of appreciation and meaningfulness. With this one way in which it might be taken, it is really our culture's hyper emphasis on sex that makes it seem questionable or require words like "platonic" to defend it. My shrink says he loves his colleague, with whom he has lunch every week. Does that mean he has a homoerotic relationship on the side? It can get silly to worry that word. Other culture's are much more open and warmly expressive than some of the norms of ours.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think it is good there are therapists who feel like that to match up with clients such as myself who consider the whole notion of love and therapy combined to be horrifying, unnecessary and repugnant.
If you like it fine, but it is not sad for those of us for whom it is not required or desired.

Sorry SD you're right. I should have said that it felt sad to me. I tend to respond from my heart, and I don't always apply the brain filter. I need to be more conscious of that; I did not mean to offend anyone.

[Petra5ed]

Interesting arguments for both sides whether or not a T should say I love you, but it is especially nice to hear that a therapist can at least experience love for a client! I always wonder how real the relationship is for my therapist, who has a lot more friends and family than me. And I wonder if maybe when it's a job if a therapist/doctor just doesn't let themselves relate or get that close. But, like some of the posters I've felt a lot of times like my therapist does love me. In fact sometimes it seems like he cares more about me than anyone else in my life, including my husband. All I know is, however he feels doesn't matter to me so much, I love him either way.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

But, like some of the posters I've felt a lot of times like my therapist does love me. In fact sometimes it seems like he cares more about me than anyone else in my life, including my husband. All I know is, however he feels doesn't matter to me so much, I love him either way.

I just want to comment on this because I personally think that a lot of therapists feel very strong positive emotions towards their clients, and that sometimes includes love. Your therapist might feel that way too. Just because they don't say it, it does not mean they don't feel it. Good therapists learn to manage their emotions and are careful to say things only when those things are likely to be therapeutic and not harmful or inappropriate (depending on the client, the rules they have to follow, their particular kind of therapy, etc).

For instance, don't you think that a therapist who hears about some terrible abuse might really feel like shouting some real vicious things about the perpetrator to the victim sitting in her office? Or that a male heterosexual therapist who has an attractive client dressed in something revealing, to say, Oh you look so hot and sexy, God I wish you were my girlfriend! But a therapist will do his/her best to manage those emotions.

Perhaps they think: Am I saying this because I want to say it and it makes me feel better or because hearing it will help my client therapeutically? Is what I'm saying harmful and can it be misunderstood? Am I saying it with the right tone? Etc. That's why I personally think becoming a therapist is quite easy but that becoming a great therapist is very difficult.

[StressedMess]

I would feel VERY uncomfortable if I loved T or if T loved me.

Love has been a very foolish experience for me thus far.

I fear I would begin hiding my feelings and trying to be/do/feel what T expects, as I have done in all my relationships.

I go to T to "keep it real" and understand WHY I do the dumb things I do. I have to get along with T and trust T which is already a tall order.

There's no way love can enter my therapeutic relationship, if it ever does I will have to stop going.

Just my two cents!

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"No place for love"?! Seriously? What a terrible, sad way to think.

My t and i say i love you to each other nearly every time we talk. It works for us.
I am glad you have a T who is willing to love

Finally! It's nice to read a thread where love is accepted as a beautiful emotion between two people and does not necessarily involve sex. Love can exist beyond the family. Some people sadly don't realize it. I have friends whom I genuinely love and would drop everything for if they needed me. We cannot manufacture the feeling.

Sometimes love wears a disguise and is not visible at first, but your heart can pierce any mask. Love just happens and sometimes is found in the most unlikely places. If you cannot open your heart to it, you will miss out on some amazing relationships. Don't let it pass you by.

[stopdog]

I love my friends and I love my pets - nothing sexual about those things.
I do not consider platonic love to enter into therapy at all for me. I do not want it and I cannot even imagine how it would happen. But I probably also would not ever talk about hearts or beautiful emotions of any sort.
I don't love my students or my clients - again I cannot imagine how it would even arise. I like most of them well enough, but I most decidedly do not love them.
I don't see anything where anyone said love had to equal sex.
If you think the therapist loves you or you the therapist - then fine and I am not trying to say it does not work for you.