[PaulaS]

I´m looking for a new T at the moment and found out there are some T:s that are "just" psychotherapists and who don´t have a combined education to become a psychologist + psychoterapist. Perhaps this looks different from country to country so I´ll try to explain it.

In my country a person who is both psychotherapist and a psychologist has the longest education, about 10 years including having several years of supervised client meetings.

A person who´s only a psychotherapist has a shorter education, about 7,5 years, and has not gone through an education to become a psychologist. A person who´s only a psychotherapist has often his or her major education in other areas, most often to become a social worker, a welfare officer.

My former T was both a psychotherapist and psychologist and when I now seek for a new T some of those being "just" a psychotherapist has a lower fee, about half the fee or less compared to the general therapy fee.

But of course I see the danger in choosing a T that has no experience as a psychologist, I see it may lead to such a T being unable to deal with my problems.

I also see a danger in such a T just being able to offer "supportive conversations" and not treatment. That is, you feel a bit enlightened and supported during therapy but you won´t get any tools or you won´t solve for example childhood issues when the T doesn´t have a psychologist degree.

Even if it´s much about the therapeutic relationship itself, a real treatment can´t just being based on having "nice chats" with a nice T, the T has to be competent enough to make you independent and to really solve issues (together with the client of course) that prevent you from things in life.

Has anyone experiences from this? How to decide in this matter? Is a T who´s only a psychotherapist to be considered as not trusted in really solving issues?

I would really appreciate some advice.

[rwither1]

I'm a master's level therapist in the US. Sure, there is a difference between a therapist and a psychologist, but they also are trained to do different things. Psychologists, generally speaking, do testing and evaluation. Depending on your condition, this may be totally irrelevant. Or maybe it is, depends on what you're dealing with. But I would not look at level of education, but rather the rapport you establish with them, their personality, their theoretical orientation. So much of this profession has to do with the relationship. Level of education is only one of many factors to use in making this decision. It's certainly not the most important. But like I said, depends on what you are seeing a therapist for.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I've had many Ts who have had different levels of education.

My ex-T who I saw for 4 years was a licensed clinical social worker. She was awesome. I made so much progress with her and we had a very giid relationship.

My current T is a psychologist. She is also awesome and has already been helping me out a lot.

This debate over education comes up a lot. I truly believe that what makes the biggest difference between therapists is the rapport you are able to develop with them. If you can connect, that is the most important aspect.

[dancinglady]

I had several LCSWsocial workers. I now have and have had a psychologist and I believe they r better suited to help. Relationship is important but the extra education helps a lot.

[stopdog]

The craziest therapist I ever tried was a phd. I have not found the difference in phd versus lcsw to make a difference for me.

[Xenon]

I am with a psychologist, as it turns out, but I would not select a therapist based mainly on degree type. If you want to know if a therapist can deal with your problems, the only way to get an idea of that is to discuss your problems with them and see if they seem knowledgeable of and comfortable with them. If you want someone who can offer more than supportive conversations or who can explore childhood issues, you can mention that and see if they can talk intelligently about it. A higher degree is no guarantee someone can help you; and a lower degree does not necessarily indicate they can't.

[HazelGirl]

Mine's an LCSW and she's wonderful. There have been a multitude of studies that have shown that differing levels of education do not matter in terms of how good therapy is.

[RedSun]

In the UK, usually a practitioner is either a psychologist, or a psychotherapist. The two paths of training are quite different, and the aims of treatment are also different.
A psychologist will usually work in a clinical setting, like a hospital. They can diagnose, and work with, severe mental health issues, and are more 'scientifically' based, often using cbt.

A psychotherapist focuses much more on a relationship with the client to look at emotional and behavioural issues, and use the therapeutic relationship as a vehicle for change.

Both totally have their valid place in healing, and they're both different.

Hope this helps a bit...

[gloamingone]

The best T I've ever had was actually a T in training. She was doing her final internship at the practice before graduating. The least effective T I've had was a psychologist. She didn't seem to be able to give me useful tools. It was all just talk.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lauliza]

There is so much confusion on this area that is well justified even among Ts themselves and I have learned the difference in my own education that I'll try to explain (this is in the US only).

In the US the doctorate level psychologist is better trained in the areas of psych testing and research. But for therapy, the education in itself is of little consequence. What is of consequence is the actual training which for all disciplines comes in the form of supervised experience - "residencies" for psychologists or "internships" for Masters level Ts (social workers and MH counselors). Different terminology but both are the same. Psychologists have a longer intern requirement before they can be licensed. So one fresh out of school will have more experience. A licensed social worker and counselor can gain the same supervised experience after they are licensed, and many do. I actually think this is pretty important and probably will speak volumes about how effective they may be.It is hours of supervised experience that matters. A social worker with the LICSW distinction has the same number of supervised hours (i.e. experience) as a PhD. A counselor work up the same amount of experience but the license doesn't change, so this is when I would ask. So in the scenario where 3 Ts have the same amount of supervised experience - paid or unpaid- but different licensure, the quality of their therapy at this point will be about the individual, not the education. Even in advising on meds. Psychologists may have had an extra class in grad school, but that's about it.

Personally, as a future T myself (a MH counselor) I'll be honest and say I'd be wary of a Masters level counselor or social worker who works in solo private practice right out of school. There are always exceptions but that's where I'd make the distinction.

All that said, European standards may be different. Educationally everything is held to a higher standard. A social work license in Europe may mean something different than one here so your concerns could be valid in that respect.

It's impossible for me to say if there's a danger in not choosing a psychologist in your country. I think you should go with your gut feeling, but also try a psychotherapist just to see.

Where I live, there are a lot of masters level therapists who used to work in state social and health agencies (it's the capital city, seat of state government). In my opinion, they are just not very good at dealing with complex issues. They are better at short term goal setting, and even then I question their competence (I know several in my regular life). I've had to go out of town to find a good therapist who was referred to me by a psychologist. Just talking to the psychologist on the phone, I could immediately tell the higher level of competence. That's not to say that psychotherapists aren't just as good (mine is excellent) or that all psychologists are wonderful, just that where I live it's been a real mixed bag--mostly poor quality psychotherapists.

[PaulaS]

There are many interesting views on this. I think it´s very hard to be sure about how to choose and I´m afraid that a T will seem competent at first but not when we come to dig deeper into my issues.

I don´t really know what to ask about either, I mean, in a first session. I already know the two T:s I´m about to meet, that they aren´t psychologists but welfare officers/social workers and then they´ve gone through an education to become psychotherapists. Both are at their 60s and above.

What problems/issues/diagnoses have to be, very generally speaking, dealt with by a psychotherapist who´s also a psychologist? I ask this because those being a psychotherapist but not a psychologist has less education and, at least in my country, often work at councellors at schools and so on, not just in the more "heavy" medical field of psychology.

Originally Posted by rwither1

I'm a master's level therapist in the US. Sure, there is a difference between a therapist and a psychologist, but they also are trained to do different things. Psychologists, generally speaking, do testing and evaluation. Depending on your condition, this may be totally irrelevant. Or maybe it is, depends on what you're dealing with. But I would not look at level of education, but rather the rapport you establish with them, their personality, their theoretical orientation. So much of this profession has to do with the relationship. Level of education is only one of many factors to use in making this decision. It's certainly not the most important. But like I said, depends on what you are seeing a therapist for.

[Rose76]

I've seen both psychologists and people who were just therapists (typically with a master degree in social work.) A psychologist has a doctorate in psychology, a PhD in psychology. That higher level of training makes a clinical psychologist (the type who do treatment) competent to come up with diagnoses.

The main goal of therapy is to help the patient learn to better cope with the stresses of living. Having a PhD. degree doesn't make a psychologist necessarily any better at doing that than a social worker. The main person who has to deal with your problems is you, not the professional. No degree makes anyone more expert at dealing with human problems than anyone else. Experience successfully helping people is important. But there is really no way of knowing how good anyone is at that based on some credential. You really have to just work with the person and see if it helps you.

My own extensive experience with therapy has made me realize that no therapist ever solves your problems, no matter how many degrees the therapist has. That's pretty much on you, but checking in with someone who knows your life story can help keep you honest about whether you are really working in a direction that is productive.

I have found that both types of professional counselors, both the psychologists and the ordinary therapists, tend to spend the time they meet with you chatting about whatever happens to be on your mind when you walk through the door. In my experience, that's not real productive, other than to make you feel listened to for a while.

Therapy can serve to educate you about disorders of the mind. In that, a psychologist may be most capable. But getting educated about your disorder doesn't naturally translate into getting a better grip on dealing with your problems. Some people accumulate all kinds of knowledge about psychology, without managing to improve their lives very much, if at all.

If knowledge about the mind gave you a good life, then psychologists would tend to have the best lives. They don't. I once worked taking care of the children of parents who were both child psychologists. I didn't stay long in the job because these were two of the most obnoxious, ill-behaved children I'ld ever met. They were bad enough with me and even worse, when their parents were in the house. So knowledge about the mind doesn't not predict skill in coping with life. That takes wisdom. There is no special degree that tells you how much wisdom a person has.

[PaulaS]

It´s an important point you make, that it depends on why you seek therapy. It´s around this I feel it´s quite hard to establish when you need a psychologist and when it´s "enough" with a psychotherapist. For me, I don´t have any psychiatrical diagnoses, in short I suffer from abandonment issues, loneliness, relationship issues with my parents, lacking support and long term unemployment.

Originally Posted by rwither1

I'm a master's level therapist in the US. Sure, there is a difference between a therapist and a psychologist, but they also are trained to do different things. Psychologists, generally speaking, do testing and evaluation. Depending on your condition, this may be totally irrelevant. Or maybe it is, depends on what you're dealing with. But I would not look at level of education, but rather the rapport you establish with them, their personality, their theoretical orientation. So much of this profession has to do with the relationship. Level of education is only one of many factors to use in making this decision. It's certainly not the most important. But like I said, depends on what you are seeing a therapist for.

[PaulaS]

This seems to be a bit different from my country, where I live a psychotherapist is most often a psychologist as well and the second most common major education is to be a social worker/welfare officer and then you go on studying to become a psychotherapist.

Originally Posted by Red75

In the UK, usually a practitioner is either a psychologist, or a psychotherapist. The two paths of training are quite different, and the aims of treatment are also different.
A psychologist will usually work in a clinical setting, like a hospital. They can diagnose, and work with, severe mental health issues, and are more 'scientifically' based, often using cbt.

A psychotherapist focuses much more on a relationship with the client to look at emotional and behavioural issues, and use the therapeutic relationship as a vehicle for change.

Both totally have their valid place in healing, and they're both different.

Hope this helps a bit...

[PaulaS]

This gave me many interesting viewpoints. Unfortunately it´s the way you described, that no credentials tell you if a treatment at that specific T will become successful or not. For me that´s quite a problem as I don´t have the money to spend on several sessions just to try out a T.

I think the problem is that in the beginning you most often talk about more "easy" things and when you go deeper it´s also then you find out if the T can manage you and your problems. On that aspect, I really don´t know how to find a T that suits me.

As you said, I also experienced feeling better and feeling listened to but I pretty soon realised that a real treatment takes a lot of time.

It´s an interesting story about you taking care of children to parents that were psychologists and that the children were really ill-behaved. It´s probably a common misconception that T:s always know how to deal with their own personal problems and relations. It´s quite fascinating that you pretty often realise they don´t.

Originally Posted by Rose76

I've seen both psychologists and people who were just therapists (typically with a master degree in social work.) A psychologist has a doctorate in psychology, a PhD in psychology. That higher level of training makes a clinical psychologist (the type who do treatment) competent to come up with diagnoses.

The main goal of therapy is to help the patient learn to better cope with the stresses of living. Having a PhD. degree doesn't make a psychologist necessarily any better at doing that than a social worker. The main person who has to deal with your problems is you, not the professional. No degree makes anyone more expert at dealing with human problems than anyone else. Experience successfully helping people is important. But there is really no way of knowing how good anyone is at that based on some credential. You really have to just work with the person and see if it helps you.

My own extensive experience with therapy has made me realize that no therapist ever solves your problems, no matter how many degrees the therapist has. That's pretty much on you, but checking in with someone who knows your life story can help keep you honest about whether you are really working in a direction that is productive.

I have found that both types of professional counselors, both the psychologists and the ordinary therapists, tend to spend the time they meet with you chatting about whatever happens to be on your mind when you walk through the door. In my experience, that's not real productive, other than to make you feel listened to for a while.

Therapy can serve to educate you about disorders of the mind. In that, a psychologist may be most capable. But getting educated about your disorder doesn't naturally translate into getting a better grip on dealing with your problems. Some people accumulate all kinds of knowledge about psychology, without managing to improve their lives very much, if at all.

If knowledge about the mind gave you a good life, then psychologists would tend to have the best lives. They don't. I once worked taking care of the children of parents who were both child psychologists. I didn't stay long in the job because these were two of the most obnoxious, ill-behaved children I'ld ever met. They were bad enough with me and even worse, when their parents were in the house. So knowledge about the mind doesn't not predict skill in coping with life. That takes wisdom. There is no special degree that tells you how much wisdom a person has.

[Rose76]

I don't know that any T is going to "manage you and your problems." In my experience, that only happens within an in-patient, or intensive out-patient, setting. In those venues, staff actually engages in behavior management. In typical once a week therapy, the therapist isn't really managing anything beyond the one hour interaction.

[Favorite Jeans]

I've posted a bunch of times in answer to similar questions that I don't think it matters too much. Or rather, the therapist's degree matters, but other factors matter more. In my experience, an MD or PhD doesn't have any predictive value (versus a master's degree) with respect to the quality of the therapist. (Hey does anyone remember Dr Laura??)

However... I recently saw a business card for someone who calls herself a psychotherapist and only lists a BA after her name. My first thought was that she was a bit of a fraud and that I'd never see someone like her. So I guess I do put some stock in the therapist's degree after all.

I'm one of those people who doesn't believe that PhD psychologist, MD psychiatrist, LCMSW or Mental Health Counselor is the deciding factor of who is the best trained or most skilled therapist. For me, it really is the personal connection and degree of confidence and openness of the person I meet with. I've "tried out" all the different degrees and the one's I ended up working well with happened on the basis of their personality, not their degree.

Here in the U.S. an MSW degree is not simply a master's level social worker who is trained to work in welfare or social services. The individuals who are LCSW (Licensed CLINICAL Social Workers) are in a master's program that is specifically designed to address mental health issues. In other words, although they are trained in the "social work model", they are being trained to do psychotherapy. Their practicum and internships are in clinical settings. In the U.S. most social workers who work in Social Service settings (ie. Child Protective Services, Foster Care, Welfare & Adult Services) have a bachelor's degree in a human services area.

Originally Posted by PaulaS

It´s an important point you make, that it depends on why you seek therapy. It´s around this I feel it´s quite hard to establish when you need a psychologist and when it´s "enough" with a psychotherapist. For me, I don´t have any psychiatrical diagnoses, in short I suffer from abandonment issues, loneliness, relationship issues with my parents, lacking support and long term unemployment.

You have mentioned a few times that the thing you struggle with the most on a day to day basis is abandonment, loneliness and relationships. If you like to read books on mental health issues, there is a great book that addresses these issues in a very readable way. I think you might find it interesting.
The Search for the Real Self by James F. Masterson, M.D. It might help in your quest for finding the right therapist for your work.

[Lauliza]

I think in the OPs country there is a difference since she notes most social workers are welfare workers who decided to become therapists later. Here in the US a social work degree is extremely broad and you don't need an advanced degree to work as a welfare case worker. Welfare workers often only have bachelor degrees in social work. That is where there is confusion. People hear "social worker" or "counselor" and they think lower level. But that's not generally the case so long as the credentials are there. Someone who calls themselves a psychotherapist without a masters at least can't be licensed so to that extent they are a fraud. The debate seems to be whether having a doctorate makes a therapist more competent over Masters level therapists. It doesn't in most cases, but experience certainly does. But on an educational level, pschologists are not better trained or equipped to handle "deeper" issues than other Ts. What dictates that competence (beyond a license) is the amount of experience a T has and with what population if you want a specialization.

All licensed Ts can diagnose as well- even non PhDs. In fact they have to if clients are using insurance. The only time you need a phD to diagnose is if you are going for psych testing. That can only be done by a doctorate. It isn't necessary for diagnosis per se but is if you are applying for disability or for services for that specific issue (like autism or ADHD) where testing and documentation are needed. The therapy provided for people with these issues is often provided by Ts who are not PhDs, however.