[Yearning0723]

Pretty much what my childhood was. I think I always have trouble telling "bad stuff" to T only because there was so much "good stuff" surrounding it, so when she says that she feels how hurt I must have been and how sad/scared/lonely I was or how unloved I must have felt, etc. I always think, that can't be right, because my parents loved me. And it also makes me worry that I'm remembering the "bad stuff" incorrectly and maybe it didn't happen the way I remember it...I've discussed this with T, and her stance is that people don't usually just imagine traumatic memories (she is wrong about this and needs to do more reading about human memory) and that even if I'm right that people sometimes do subconsciously manufacture traumatic memories, obviously my feelings of pain/loneliness/sadness come from something, whether the details are exactly right or not.

She's right about that, but at the same time it's very hard for me to reconcile the mother who helped me put on spa days for my American Girl dolls (who were also my very best friends) with the mother who would take them away for months at a time and threaten to put them in "jail" or throw them in the garbage if I didn't do what she said, or the mother who made up her own little song for me that she would sing me before bed that pretty much went, "My little (yearning), my little (yearning), Mommy loves you very very much," with the mother who would tear books out of my hand and rip them into pieces if I didn't pay attention to what she was telling me to do, or the mother who read to me every night with the mother who locked me out of the house for two hours in below freezing weather when it was snowing with no hat or gloves because I didn't want to go to Hebrew school when I was ten years old, or who laughed at me when I was nine and told her I wanted to kill myself and just said, "Okay, go ahead," or who ripped my favorite t-shirt in half while we were "fighting" when I was nine, or who used to sit on me whenever I was crying until I would be hysterical and yelling that I couldn't breathe...

T says that my parents "traumatized" me, and one part of me believes that, but the other part of me doesn't. That part of me thinks either I'm just too sensitive or I brought those things on myself...and no matter what T says, I just can't see it from her point of view.

[Middlemarcher]

A lot of my work in therapy seems to involve working toward a fuller, more coherent, less fragmented/split view of people, including myself. So I work toward understanding how my parents could do very loving things, and very traumatizing things, and trying to integrate all of their facets into a simultaneous understanding. I look at my failed marriage and try to see all of it at once, the very good things we had and the bad things we had. I look at the opposing facets of myself, and try to see them as part of a whole.

For what it is worth, I also have come to believe that hatred is a natural human emotion that we frequently deny. I think it's possible to love someone overall, but also hate them sometimes. I can't imagine that my parents never had a moment of hatred toward me. That doesn't mean that they didn't love me.

My mother in particular was and is predictably unpredictable. It's a very confusing thing to try to put together all the puzzle pieces.

[Middlemarcher]

Btw, I also used to talk in therapy about how I must be too sensitive, and that someone who was less sensitive wouldn't have come out of my background with trauma or emotional wounds or attachment issues or whatever. Eventually I decided that it really didn't matter whether or not that was true. The trauma is there, the issues are there. Arguing with myself about whether it should be so is pointless. But getting to that point was gradual, and I think it involved a certain amount of being able to face my inner sense of shame and quiet my inner critic a bit.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Middlemarcher

Btw, I also used to talk in therapy about how I must be too sensitive, and that someone who was less sensitive wouldn't have come out of my background with trauma or emotional wounds or attachment issues or whatever. Eventually I decided that it really didn't matter whether or not that was true. The trauma is there, the issues are there. Arguing with myself about whether it should be so is pointless. But getting to that point was gradual, and I think it involved a certain amount of being able to face my inner sense of shame and quiet my inner critic a bit.

How did you manage this?????????

[Middlemarcher]

Time, patience, talking, more time, lots more talking, more patience... And a very good T, obviously. I think that's what it mainly comes down to. Consistent effort, incremental progress. But I also have made an effort to notice that inner critic voice whenever it piped up and gently counter it and offer myself some compassion. It felt awkward, stupid, pointless, forced, inane, inauthentic (etc etc) at first. But with time and consistent effort, things have improved quite a bit.

[Ididitmyway]

The truth of life I have discovered is that people possess many contradictory qualities that are difficult to reconcile for those who knew them closely. This is often the case with family members: children and parents, husband and wife, siblings. We can't choose our families the way we choose friends, so in the way we are stuck with them and we are stuck with the task of reconciling all the bads and the goods in them. We are stuck with this task often for the rest of our lives because we internalize our families and our experiences with them and they become parts of who we are. So, in the way, reconciling their strikingly different qualities is like reconciling parts of ourselves.

From experience I know that reconciliation requires some emotional distancing a.k.a detachment from them. Only from a distance we can see things objectively and fully as they are.

Based on your descriptions of your childhood experiences you were clearly abused. That doesn't mean your mother was a horrible person. One doesn't have to declare someone else horrible or judge them in any way to recognize that that person's actions were abusive, harmful and traumatizing. At the same time, one doesn't have to justify the wrongful actions of someone else in order to acknowledge that that person also had some good human qualities. It's helpful to separate people from their actions. We can never completely know or understand who somebody is because we can't even completely understand ourselves.

I was also abused by my parents, but I never declared any of them as horrible human beings, while I completely held them responsible for traumatizing me. There were also moments when they were kind to me, and I don't see anything strange about it, because they were just people, and, by definition, they had their unique combination of light and darkness. I do have moments when I get angry with them for the bad things they did, and I also have moments when I have compassion for them because I know that they had suffered a lot throughout their lives and weren't capable of being good parents because of that.

In terms of what happened to you, your memories seem to be pretty clear. It doesn't sound at all like you "manufactured" anything, especially when you were talking about what happened when you were nine. At nine years of age memories are very clear and can't be "manufactured".

[angelicgoldfish05]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I was also abused by my parents, but I never declared any of them as horrible human beings, while I completely held them responsible for traumatizing me. There were also moments when they were kind to me, and I don't see anything strange about it, because they were just people, and, by definition, they had their unique combination of light and darkness. I do have moments when I get angry with them for the bad things they did, and I also have moments when I have compassion for them because I know that they had suffered a lot throughout their lives and weren't capable of being good parents because of that.

Do you think it's a normal thing to go through a period of being annoyed at having to like your parents and putting them on a pedestal all the time. I spent my whole life catering to their needs and making sure they felt okay about themselves and trying to make everything in the situation feel okay too. In short, trying to please everyone all the time, smooth out the wrinkles, be a peacemaker in the arguments... But I've really never felt ok criticizing any of the parenting they did because they pat themselves on the back all the time saying how wonderful they did and how great the kids all turned out. I really want to feel angry at the bad things that happened but feel like I can't. Then this gets repressed and next thing you know I am doing things that are harmful to myself instead. I just have never let myself feel it fully, because I'm afraid to. I'm afraid I'll get punished for it because I should feel grateful for everything they have given me. But at the same time, I did not ask to be born into this world. That was their choice (accident or not, they still could have chosen to abort me). So the way I see it, I do not owe them anything, yet I've tried to give them everything I feel they have required, demanded, asked, or even hinted at. Every child has the basic right to be safe in their own homes and not abused. But I have trouble saying that anything I went through was abuse. I want to ask my friend I told about it - was that normal? Did your mom do stuff like that too? Did your parents fight all the time too and yell and slam doors and throw things?

Well I really don't remember that much about what happened anyways. So maybe I am making things up about what happened and how bad it was because maybe it was not bad at all. I don't really remember much except a few times, and I didn't make those up. But if I remember 2-3 specific incidents, and the rest is a blur, does that mean nothing else happened that was abusive? Or could it be repressed somewhere and I just don't want to (can't let myself) remember.

Like you, Yearning, I wonder if I am making stuff up too! After telling things a few times, or coming to terms with things, it just starts to feel not real, and like, well, maybe that didn't really happen then. Kind of like how dreams come in our conscious memory but can slip away again or something. I don't know how to explain it. All I know is that for some of the things, the more I talk about them, the less real they feel. So it seems like, well then, maybe I made that up then.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by angelicgoldfish05

Do you think it's a normal thing to go through a period of being annoyed at having to like your parents and putting them on a pedestal all the time. I spent my whole life catering to their needs and making sure they felt okay about themselves and trying to make everything in the situation feel okay too. In short, trying to please everyone all the time, smooth out the wrinkles, be a peacemaker in the arguments... But I've really never felt ok criticizing any of the parenting they did because they pat themselves on the back all the time saying how wonderful they did and how great the kids all turned out. I really want to feel angry at the bad things that happened but feel like I can't. Then this gets repressed and next thing you know I am doing things that are harmful to myself instead. I just have never let myself feel it fully, because I'm afraid to. I'm afraid I'll get punished for it because I should feel grateful for everything they have given me. But at the same time, I did not ask to be born into this world. That was their choice (accident or not, they still could have chosen to abort me). So the way I see it, I do not owe them anything, yet I've tried to give them everything I feel they have required, demanded, asked, or even hinted at. Every child has the basic right to be safe in their own homes and not abused. But I have trouble saying that anything I went through was abuse. I want to ask my friend I told about it - was that normal? Did your mom do stuff like that too? Did your parents fight all the time too and yell and slam doors and throw things?

Well I really don't remember that much about what happened anyways. So maybe I am making things up about what happened and how bad it was because maybe it was not bad at all. I don't really remember much except a few times, and I didn't make those up. But if I remember 2-3 specific incidents, and the rest is a blur, does that mean nothing else happened that was abusive? Or could it be repressed somewhere and I just don't want to (can't let myself) remember.

Like you, Yearning, I wonder if I am making stuff up too! After telling things a few times, or coming to terms with things, it just starts to feel not real, and like, well, maybe that didn't really happen then. Kind of like how dreams come in our conscious memory but can slip away again or something. I don't know how to explain it. All I know is that for some of the things, the more I talk about them, the less real they feel. So it seems like, well then, maybe I made that up then.

Actually, I've found it helpful not to force anything in terms of remembering what exactly happened, agonizing about whether it happened or not and about how to feel toward the parents. The less you force it, the sooner everything that needs to come to you will come.

It's very helpful to do some kind of bodywork and anything physical that feels good: massage, yoga, any physical activity you enjoy like simply taking a walk in the park. Getting in touch with the body helps tremendously. When we learn how to listen to our bodies some amazing insights may come that may be much deeper than what comes after therapy sessions. When we are grounded in our bodies, emotions and memories come more rapidly and more naturally without any force. Just make sure that any physical activity you do is a mindful practice, meaning that you are fully connected with all your senses and listen to your body at all times. Exercising in the gym while looking at the TV screen or with the headset on your head won't have any health effect on you, either physical or mental, because when you do that you just move your arms and legs mechanically while being mentally disengaged.

Simply being mindful of everything you do during the day and being fully engaged will give you better understanding of yourself and your history then intentional attempts to recall certain things or to make sense of them.

What you've described is so loaded with many contradictory thoughts and emotions that intellectual analysis won't give you much clarity, it will only make things more confusing and distressing. Let it all settle naturally and create conditions for that to happen. Practice being in the moment and being fully in touch with whatever you experience in the moment. Bodily sensations are the most important ones to pay attention to. You will discover a great deal about yourself by simply observing your posture, gait, movements, gestures, breathing etc. and asking yourself why your body does all those things the way it does. Some powerful stuff can come out.

[catonyx]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

It's very helpful to do some kind of bodywork and anything physical that feels good: massage, yoga, any physical activity you enjoy like simply taking a walk in the park. Getting in touch with the body helps tremendously. When we learn how to listen to our bodies some amazing insights may come that may be much deeper than what comes after therapy sessions. When we are grounded in our bodies, emotions and memories come more rapidly and more naturally without any force. Just make sure that any physical activity you do is a mindful practice, meaning that you are fully connected with all your senses and listen to your body at all times. Exercising in the gym while looking at the TV screen or with the headset on your head won't have any health effect on you, either physical or mental, because when you do that you just move your arms and legs mechanically while being mentally disengaged.

So... that's never effective in any scenario?

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by catonyx

So... that's never effective in any scenario?

What are you referring to? Exercising while trying to disconnect mentally from what you are doing physically? According to some medical doctors, yoga instructors and some fitness instructors, no, it's never effective. My son is a certified fitness instructor, by the way, and he says that most people exercise incorrectly, with no mental awareness of what they are doing and no understanding how specific moves affect their bodies. When you exercise mindlessly, you negate the health benefits of the exercise. I can go into specific details of that by explaining how various physical moves and postures affect our body and our mental state, but I can't do it on the forum. I can PM you about it if you want me to.

[catonyx]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

What are you referring to? Exercising while trying to disconnect mentally from what you are doing physically?

Uhm... The part in bold. Maybe I missed the point completely.

I read that to say that exercising while watching TV will not have the same effect as exercising while not watching TV. So if I was hoping to use exercise as a means of hmmm ... What's the word... Relieve stress/anxiety, doing something physical to exert energy, or as a distraction from my mind (or all these things at once) ... It wouldn't be effective?

(I hope I'm explaining myself properly)

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by catonyx

Uhm... The part in bold. Maybe I missed the point completely.

I read that to say that exercising while watching TV will not have the same effect as exercising while not watching TV. So if I was hoping to use exercise as a means of hmmm ... What's the word... Relieve stress/anxiety, doing something physical to exert energy, or as a distraction from my mind (or all these things at once) ... It wouldn't be effective?

(I hope I'm explaining myself properly)

I added to my previous reply. See my post below.

[catonyx]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I added to my previous reply. See my post below.

I see it now. Sure PM is fine.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by catonyx

Uhm... The part in bold. Maybe I missed the point completely.

I read that to say that exercising while watching TV will not have the same effect as exercising while not watching TV. So if I was hoping to use exercise as a means of hmmm ... What's the word... Relieve stress/anxiety, doing something physical to exert energy, or as a distraction from my mind (or all these things at once) ... It wouldn't be effective?

(I hope I'm explaining myself properly)

You said the key word - "distraction". If your goal is to distract yourself from your mind, then yes, mindless exercise would help you do just that, and so if that's the final goal than it's fine to do it however you want to do it. In this case, mindless exercise is a good coping strategy that is perfectly fine to use since it's better than alcohol or drugs.

If you want to do more than just to cope, meaning that you want to heal some of the emotional trauma, then mindfulness is key in this process. In my experience, healing is impossible without some degree of self-awareness. Mindfulness is something you practice as much as you can on a daily basis in regards to everything you do, whether it's exercising or anything you do throughout the day.

[junkDNA]

hey. my dad was physically abusive to me. but there were also good times with my dad. he died when i had just turned 10 yrs old. i understand the conflicting feelings and emotions. i feel like i have to stay loyal to my dad and i do feel like i love him. it hurts me to talk about the abuse because i feel so guilty saying those things and i dont want others to think my dad was a bad person. i guess i wanted to say i understand where u are coming from and u are not alone

[Ididitmyway]

I think, what this ultimately boils down to is how difficult it is for us to accept the reality as it is with all its different parts, good and bad and many shades of grey in between. We are trained to see things in a polarized way when everything has to be either this or that and can't be both. In fact, it's often both and more than that. Everything in life has many sides, especially people.

This is difficult to comprehend when it comes to parents. Our survival depended on them when we were kids, and so at that time a lot of bad stuff had to be dismissed or minimized in order to keep the connection with the parents upon whom our life depended.

We continue to do so when we are adults, just out of habit, even though we no longer depend on them. When there were disruptions of our normal development in childhood due to abuse and/or neglect, it's hard to completely grow up, meaning that a considerable amount of emotional involvement with the parents extends into adulthood.

When we are able to see all that was happening in childhood honestly for what it was and process all the difficult emotions those memories may produce, then we create a necessary emotional distance from our parents and from those experiences, the distance that allows us to see things objectively for what they were, without any exaggeration of either positive or negative side. Only then we can truly grow up and look at our parents with compassion for their sufferings and appreciation of the good things they did while still holding them responsible for the wrongdoings.

In other words we learn to accept them just as they are, with all the crap and all the good qualities they have. We no longer need to label them one way or another. I think, that's what maturity is about.

[IndestructibleGirl]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

What are you referring to? Exercising while trying to disconnect mentally from what you are doing physically? According to some medical doctors, yoga instructors and some fitness instructors, no, it's never effective. My son is a certified fitness instructor, by the way, and he says that most people exercise incorrectly, with no mental awareness of what they are doing and no understanding how specific moves affect their bodies. When you exercise mindlessly, you negate the health benefits of the exercise. I can go into specific details of that by explaining how various physical moves and postures affect our body and our mental state, but I can't do it on the forum. I can PM you about it if you want me to.

That's really interesting.

I find when I run, music enhances my experience of what my body is doing - it gives me the oomph to keep running when I'd rather quit, and then I become very aware of the strength and stamina in my legs and enjoy that and feel like I can go on forever. So the music kind of opens the door to my realising my own physical power.