Signs of a bad therapist

That's great and I'm happy for you! Again, I can't say how it fits without specifics, but I'm glad that you've had a positive experience.

Omg! Why are we sucking up to this person? Why arent you sucking up to MEEEEE???? i can be just as big of a knowitall!!! :Pouting:

I wasn't sucking up; I was trying to point out his or her theories do not apply universally and perhaps it would be more accurate not to issue these blanket pronouncements.

A lot of what I use therapy for is to bring things to consciousness that are making me miserable. Some of those things are events from the past that altered my perceptions of what I can expect from life and other people. As magicalprince points out, I'm at a disadvantage choosing a good therapist when my people sensor is so effed up. I feel more comfortable with dysfunctional people, including therapists.

I think this is why I found the Jungian analysts so challenging. They had done a lot of their own work (years of it) as a requirement for being analysts so there was far less of their unconscious crap getting in the way and it was just about my own. So, while a good therapist is key, the person has to possess the capacity for self-awareness. I was just not ready, so I tried all sorts of other types of therapists with varying levels of cluelessness about what they were doing.

Right now, I think I have one who understands the pitfalls. We've talked about this, and she's aware of how things can go wrong. But who knows? For now, I'm finding it really helpful.

I appreciate your sharing but I still do disagree with both of these statements.

(Well, there is always a perhaps, but nothing is life is certain.)

My sharing had a lot to do with supporting other people who felt invalidated by your blanket statements, as well as gently pointing out that your theory CANNOT be universally applied because several people's experiences on here show that your theory is incorrect in reference to that individual person's therapy.

I tried therapy with at least six different people prior to finding my current therapist. Each of those people would be good therapists under your rules, and I am sure each was a good therapist for other individuals. They did not help me. My current therapist, who has broken many of your 'rules' has helped me a great deal. If he gets some emotional gratification or satisfaction from my therapy with him, I am good with that. It has not harmed me in any way and I am dramatically better emotionally, financially and physically than I was when I started therapy with him. Under your 'rules' however, he would be a bad therapist and therapy with him would be emotionally harmful for me. Can you see how, if my therapy HAS been helpful, your stated rules cannot be absolute no matter how many times you say they are?

I do think analysis seems nice, I like a lot of the literature. The modality seems a bit overwrought but I'm at least guessing it is far less likely to do harm.

Happy that you've found a good fit for therapy.

MKAC, I could have posted the exact same thing (and proposed the same question). I, too, have had therapists who broke some of those rules" and I suppose magicalprince, you would have also deemed my therapists "bad," "unethical,", "emotionally harming", etc. However, that was not the case at all. Therapy is not a one size fits all scenario which is what several of us have tried to point out. I have completed my therapy and am quite stable and healthy now thanks in very large part to the ability of my therapists to work with me as an individual and tailor their approach to what I personally needed -- even regularly using approaches that you would view as "bad" from your list. I developed no unhealthy emotional dependence, I was not in any way treated unethically or harmed in any way by their approaches. Your "rules" which you have repeatedly stated are "right" and universal and absolute just aren't. Your "rules" MAY apply in many cases but not in others because each client/therapist dynamic is unique.

It's not my intention to invalidate anyone, but it's out of my control how people choose to interpret my opinions.

I can't, because I don't know the specifics of your situation, and from what you've said, It seems your therapy is also ongoing?

A lot of what I was trying to emphasize with that list is behaviors that create a dependent dynamic which is not sustainable or realistic. It can feel great and comfortable when it's ongoing but it is irresponsible because of the harm it does when life happens unexpectedly, or the therapist has some circumstances and it becomes no longer accessible. I don't want to speculate, so make what you will of that.

I see what you are saying now. I am totally aware that this relationship is not forever. I do not believe I am at all dependent on my therapist, and if he suddenly dropped off the face of the earth, I would sad, as I would be if any person I feel very close to suddenly left, but it would not destroy me. But your point is that you do not KNOW that is true and that the behaviors your list as wrong MIGHT be fostering this harmful dependency and I am just not aware of it at this time. Is that accurate?

Again, I'm glad that you feel it has worked for you, but I stand by my opinion that the behaviors in that list are signs of unhealthy therapy.

Yes, it's hard to tell when you are involved in the dynamic. Usually time makes things clearer, and it may be that it all works out for you in the end and you benefited from that therapy. I sincerely hope that is the case.

Just to provide support to those that find it helpful, here's commentary on the issue of therapy effectiveness from the American Psychological Association. Recognition of Psychotherapy Effectiveness

Research on Effectiveness

WHEREAS: the effects of psychotherapy are noted in the research as follows: The general or average effects of psychotherapy are widely accepted to be significant and large, (Chorpita et al., 2011; Smith, Glass, & Miller, 1980; Wampold, 2001). These large effects of psychotherapy are quite constant across most diagnostic conditions, with variations being more influenced by general severity than by particular diagnoses—That is, variations in outcome are more heavily influenced by patient characteristics e.g., chronicity, complexity, social support, and intensity—and by clinician and context factors than by particular diagnoses or specific treatment "brands" (Beutler, 2009; Beutler & Malik, 2002a, 2002b; Malik & Beutler, 2002; Wampold, 2001);
WHEREAS: the results of psychotherapy tend to last longer and be less likely to require additional treatment courses than psychopharmacological treatments. For example, in the treatment of depression and anxiety disorders, psychotherapy clients/patients acquire a variety of skills that are used after the treatment termination and generally may continue to improve after the termination of treatment (Hollon, Stewart, & Strunk, 2006; Shedler, 2010);
WHEREAS: for most psychological disorders, the evidence from rigorous clinical research studies has shown that a variety of psychotherapies are effective with children, adults, and older adults. Generally, these studies show what experts in the field consider large beneficial effects for psychotherapy in comparison to no treatment, confirming the efficacy of psychotherapy across diverse conditions and settings (Beutler, 2009; Beutler, et al., 2003; Lambert & Ogles, 2004; McMain & Pos, 2007; Shedler, 2010; Thomas & Zimmer-Gembeck, 2007; Verheul & Herbrink, 2007; Wampold, 2001). In contrast to large differences in outcome between those treated with psychotherapy and those not treated, different forms of psychotherapy typically produce relatively similar outcomes. This research also identifies ways of improving different forms of psychotherapy by attending to how to fit the interventions to the particular patient's needs (Castonguay & Beutler, 2006; Miklowitz, 2008; Norcross, 2011);
WHEREAS: comparisons of different forms of psychotherapy most often result in relatively nonsignificant difference, and contextual and relationship factors often mediate or moderate outcomes. These findings suggest that (1) most valid and structured psychotherapies are roughly equivalent in effectiveness and (2) patient and therapist characteristics, which are not usually captured by a patient's diagnosis or by the therapist's use of a specific psychotherapy, affect the results (Castonguay & Beutler, 2006; Livesley, 2007; Norcross, 2011);
WHEREAS: in studies measuring psychotherapy effectiveness, clients often report the benefits of treatment not only endure, but continue to improve following therapy completion as seen in larger effect sizes found at follow-up (Abbass, et al., 2006; Anderson & Lambert, 1995; De Maat, et al., 2009; Grant, et al., 2012; Leichsenring & Rabung, 2008; Leichsenring, et al., 2004; Shedler, 2010);
WHEREAS: research using benchmarking strategies has established that psychotherapy delivered in routine care is generally as effective as psychotherapy delivered in clinical trials (Minami, et al., 2008; Minami, et al., 2009; Minami & Wampold, 2008; Nadort, et al., 2009; Wales, Palmer, & Fairburn, 2009);
WHEREAS: the research evidence shows that psychotherapy is an effective treatment, with most clients/patients who are experiencing such conditions as depression and anxiety disorders attaining or returning to a level of functioning, after a relatively short course of treatment, that is typical of well-functioning individuals in the general population (Baldwin, et al., 2009; Minami, et al., 2009; Stiles, et al., 2008; Wampold & Brown, 2005);
WHEREAS: research will continue to identify factors that make a difference in psychotherapy, and results of this research can then be reported to clinicians who can make better decisions (Gibbon, et al., 2010; Kazdin, 2008);
WHEREAS: researchers will continue to examine the ways in which both positive and possible negative effects of psychotherapy occur, whether due to techniques, client/patient variables, therapist variables, or some combination thereof, in order to continue to improve the quality of mental health interventions (Barlow, 2010; Dimidjian & Hollon, 2010; Duggan & Kane, 2010; Haldeman, 1994; Wilson, Grilo, & Vitousek, 2007);

signs of a bad therapist:

- doing crossword puzzles behind the desk
- needs to be reminded of your name and history and meds after 3 months
- spending half the time on their phone
- making me wait half an hour and reacting defensively when I call to find out where therapist is, then sending a payment slip for full hour

Definitely a bad therapist. I hope you found a better one.

[QUOTE=magicalprince;4833051]Putting words to your motive--note that I never specifically requested your opinion, you volunteered it to me, so if you would maintain that all you genuinely wanted was for me to read your opinion, then at the very least, you can rest assured that I've done that.

Motive for what?

Don't worry, I didn't think that you thought it was your place to tell someone what is proper therapy.

I don't think people who disagree with me are automatically wrong, and currently I also do not think that I'm wrong.

It appears that you do seem to think that people who disagree with you on this subject are wrong, and they are not. My therapist broke many of your rules and I am just fine. I've never had dependence on her. I don't know how you can make a blanket statement that certain things are unhealthy in therapy just because you think they are. It's unhealthy for you not everyone, and I find it hard to believe that deep down you don't really know that. I mean, all relationships end somehow - people die, people get divorced, they move, quit their jobs, the list goes on. Many of these relationships felt like they were forever, but things change. When you get married you have a legal contract to someone- and marriages end all the time. Does that mean the people involved are inherently "bad"? Maybe some but far from everyone. If the success of one's relationships rested on a guarantee the other person will be there forever and do everything in a precise way, they will be traumatized continuously.

What is in your control is your choice whether or not you wish to provide support to people that respond negatively to your opinions.

For telling me your opinions about my posts.

I do not believe that the people replying to me are wrong about what they have experienced, I believe they are incorrectly and inaccurately interpreting the way or the magnitude in which my opinions relate to their experience. It's more an issue of an incomplete understanding than right or wrong.

The duality of this kind of relationship is the issue. When the therapist dips into the territory of need meeting and emotional involvement, they take on two different roles simultaneously within the same interaction, and frequently when things destabilize, one role clashes with the other, resulting in unnaturally hurtful behavior, either terminating or otherwise ending/modifying/abusing the treatment space because of the way the relationship feels, or destroying/modifying the relationship to recover their footing or due to their role as the therapist.

It creates confusion about what service the therapy is actually offering, why it is ongoing, what the therapist actually owes the client, who the therapist is to the client, what the client can expect from the therapist, and what the client is actually paying for.

Sure, the healthier a person is, the more capable they already are of tolerating and coping with these conflicts. But even in cases where they don't end up causing harm, I still believe those behaviors are unhealthy.

This 100% describes how my therapy went, She blurred boundaries out of kindness and caring and in the end it wrecked it all. She and I both thought I could be helped and for a while I was, but the destructive and abandoning way it ended left me feeling terrible.

So maybe not all therapy like this ends badly but therapy that does end badly follows a similar pattern?

I believe I've made every effort to be supportive of the people who respond to my opinions. Pretending to agree is not one way I will show support, however.

In a public forum anyone can post an opinion on another person's post. I believe that is the point of public forums.

I actually think most people understand why you believe your opinions are relevant to their experiences, it's not that hard to comprehend. They just don't agree with you and I think you have difficulty understanding someone else's perspective on this topic.

It isn't about disageeing. We disagree around here all the time. It is about your absolute belief in the infallability of your viewpoint. It is about discounting other people's experience as unhealthy when they are telling you their experience was not unhealthy at all. If you were speaking about your own experience in your therapy using "I" statements, no one would have a problem with that. However, you repeatedly have said you are right in very absolute terms about ALL therapy. We are simply reminding you that you cannot speak to anyone's experience but your own; however, you seem to have a strong need to comment on ALL therapy in very black and white terms.

I don;t think therapy that goes this way has to end badly for a client, I think a client can absolutely grow and change along side this. A lot of T's cannot see it through and that causes pain but it's not an absolute.

Certainly, but presumably we have reasons and motives for wanting to post the things we post.

You are free to think that, and I disagree. My opinions are based on a lot of my own observations about patterns in human interactions in general and I would not expect it to be obvious how or how much they apply to any individual's situation, but I think that as a rule, they do apply to all therapy to some degree, even when it doesn't cause significant harm. The reason I emphasize this point is because therapists would be most likely to want to exempt themselves from that list when they were in the position to do the greatest harm.

I do not believe my opinion is infallible, I'm simply being honest that it hasn't changed. It's possible that I'm wrong, but I don't currently believe that I am wrong, and so far, I haven't felt that other people's posts are in conflict with my opinions, and I don't know enough specific information about most of them to determine how they do or don't fit.

I'm really sorry to hear that you've had that experience.

Are your opinions based on your own personal experience(s) with a therapist or therapists?