[SarahSweden]

I was never "acutely" abandoned as a child, I´ve always lived with my mother and she took good care of me. She never left me home alone as a little child or "forgot" to pick me up at school or something. My father moved when I was a teen but I don´t remember feeling abandoned back then. Still, I have abandonment issues, I easily feel abandoned and left out.

And the big thing is - I always choose and look for "mother figures" in care staff. Perhaps partly unconsciously but I begin to see a pattern and as T:s and others of course are only temporary contacts of course I will be "abandoned" even if the contact ends in a proper way with proper termination and so on.

It´s like I seek out some complementary mothers, I never choose male personnel and I wouldn´t want to open up to a male T for example.

But at the same time, I try to create these close bonds with women (never erotic transference) and then I´m in a way bound to feel abandoned when the contact ends. And still I continue seeking out and wanting these kinds of relationships - am I in some odd way trying to recreate some kind of childhood abandonment?

And if so - why?

Is it rejection rather than abandonment? You might have felt rejection as a child even if they didn't actually abandon you. Or they may have left you alone for long periods as an infant, which you have no memory of.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I don't know if it's reenactment of abandonment. I have had many "mother-figures" in my life. For me, it was trying to get that loved I missed out on as a child. I still have that desire inside me. That's why boundaries are important to me. I thought age could help (i.e. if they're younger I wouldn't long for the nurturing from them). Nope. Ex-T proved that wrong. But with current T, she helps keep the relationships boundaries clear and present. Half our work is on our relationship. It does help. I don't see her as a mother-figure and my attachment to her isn't too severe.

[SarahSweden]

Yes perhaps, and it is then also a recreation of rejection?

Originally Posted by Brown Owl

Is it rejection rather than abandonment? You might have felt rejection as a child even if they didn't actually abandon you. Or they may have left you alone for long periods as an infant, which you have no memory of.

[SarahSweden]

Yes, one side of this is about getting some kind of love but at the same time I know they´ll probably end the relationship before I want, they won´t be as caring as I hope for, I know I will miss them when I don´t see them and they won´t miss me back etc.

Still, I don´t and don´t want to choose a male caregiver and out on the streets for example I very seldom see a "father figure" or a person who seems to be a nice father but I much more often see women who I think of as caring mothers.

As I in a way know what will happen with these proffessional contacts I feel I would "run away" and choose completely different kind of persons. But on the other hand, I would probably feel disconnected to those "others".

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I don't know if it's reenactment of abandonment. I have had many "mother-figures" in my life. For me, it was trying to get that loved I missed out on as a child. I still have that desire inside me. That's why boundaries are important to me. I thought age could help (i.e. if they're younger I wouldn't long for the nurturing from them). Nope. Ex-T proved that wrong. But with current T, she helps keep the relationships boundaries clear and present. Half our work is on our relationship. It does help. I don't see her as a mother-figure and my attachment to her isn't too severe.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

Yes, one side of this is about getting some kind of love but at the same time I know they´ll probably end the relationship before I want, they won´t be as caring as I hope for, I know I will miss them when I don´t see them and they won´t miss me back etc.

Still, I don´t and don´t want to choose a male caregiver and out on the streets for example I very seldom see a "father figure" or a person who seems to be a nice father but I much more often see women who I think of as caring mothers.

As I in a way know what will happen with these proffessional contacts I feel I would "run away" and choose completely different kind of persons. But on the other hand, I would probably feel disconnected to those "others".

I understand. I don't want to see a male professional either. But for me, I'm afraid of an attraction. A guy shows me some caring, and I start getting feelings. Then I end up in a situation I don't want to be in. I've made so many stupid mistakes with men, and I'm afraid of being taken advantage of. So I avoid them.

People almost always leave, at least from my experience. They leave sooner than I want. Ex-T abandoned me, and current T is terminating with me in 10 months. Ex-ex-T abandoned me too in a sense. She didn't tell Medicaid about a former lawsuit against her, so they kicked her off. Then she kicked me out. And Ex-ex-ex-T's county office got bought out and she decided to transfer to another city instead of staying with the new company.

But I still try again. I need relationships even if they don't last. My T says I desperately need a friend. It's so hard though...

[AllHeart]

You mention your mother took good care of you but how was your attachment to her? Was it secure? Was there unconditional love, feelings of safety, and trust?

[AncientMelody]

I understand how you feel Sarah, I have noticed a similar pattern in my life. That I've really attached to particular women in my life. It's been strange because growing up my mom was basically the perfect mom. Warm and loving, very nurturing. But I attached to a couple of favorite teachers, a track coach, an older acquaintence in college. My doctor mentors BIG time. (the only exception to you is that one of the doctors is male)

I always put it akin to hero worship, idealizing. etc. I suppose I don't choose someone for an inevitable rejection, but again I get a lot of what you're saying. I wish I understood it better. I went to therapy for other reasons, so I never got around to discussing that one.

[unaluna]

You ask why - we recreate past situations hoping that THIS time they will turn out happily ever after AND when they don't, we are proved correct - that life stinks and there is nothing that can be done about it. But at least we are RIGHT.

To change things, we must risk being wrong. What if I'm wrong - what if this person hurts me? Will I survive?

An infant in her crib can't take that chance. But a walking talking adult CAN.

That's it - therapy in a nutshell.

[SarahSweden]

I don´t know for sure if there was a secure attachment or not. I believe she was a bit overprotective and I also remember there wasn´t that much of sharing feelings. I remember I sometimes felt ashamed when feeling ill and wanted her to soothe me and such. But I don´t remember any "big stuff" which I could relate to abandonment or rejection.

Originally Posted by AllHeart

You mention your mother took good care of you but how was your attachment to her? Was it secure? Was there unconditional love, feelings of safety, and trust?

[SarahSweden]

Thanks for sharing. As you I also went to teachers to talk to them during breaks when in school as a child and I also did that during high school. I also idealise people, especially women who are well educated and at the same time show warmth and kindness. It´s some kind of longing and I can´t understand why I have that longing. Did you perhaps find a book or article on this or something else that brought you more clarity on this subject?

Originally Posted by AncientMelody

I understand how you feel Sarah, I have noticed a similar pattern in my life. That I've really attached to particular women in my life. It's been strange because growing up my mom was basically the perfect mom. Warm and loving, very nurturing. But I attached to a couple of favorite teachers, a track coach, an older acquaintence in college. My doctor mentors BIG time. (the only exception to you is that one of the doctors is male)

I always put it akin to hero worship, idealizing. etc. I suppose I don't choose someone for an inevitable rejection, but again I get a lot of what you're saying. I wish I understood it better. I went to therapy for other reasons, so I never got around to discussing that one.

[SarahSweden]

Yes, but when seeing a T or Pdoc you actually know from the beginning that won´t be that kind of "love" and that you will be alone again within some time, when the treatment ends or such. For me it´s a pattern of choosing similar kinds of women, around my mother´s age and with a specific way of being and who I feel a connection with.

In a way it would perhaps be better for me to choose male staff but I wouldn´t feel comfortable. When I for example looked for priests to talk to, I also choose women, not anyone but the ones who gives me something "motherly".

Originally Posted by unaluna

You ask why - we recreate past situations hoping that THIS time they will turn out happily ever after AND when they don't, we are proved correct - that life stinks and there is nothing that can be done about it. But at least we are RIGHT.

To change things, we must risk being wrong. What if I'm wrong - what if this person hurts me? Will I survive?

An infant in her crib can't take that chance. But a walking talking adult CAN.

That's it - therapy in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

It´s some kind of longing and I can´t understand why I have that longing. Did you perhaps find a book or article on this or something else that brought you more clarity on this subject?

It sounds like emotional deprivation. Does this sound like you? There are so many people who say they had a good childhood, only to realize this later. I also suspect this because you always come across with a degree of aloofness in your posts.

I grew up with it and it has been more damaging than the sexual abuse by my father.

3. EMOTIONAL DEPRIVATION (ED)

Expectation that one's desire for a normal degree of emotional support will not be adequately met by others. The three major forms of deprivation are:

A. Deprivation of Nurturance: Absence of attention, affection, warmth, or companionship.
B. Deprivation of Empathy: Absence of understanding, listening, self-disclosure, or mutual sharing of feelings from others.
C. Deprivation of Protection: Absence of strength, direction, or guidance from others.

18 Early Schemas Defined

[SarahSweden]

That was very interesting. I´m in a psychodynamic therapy, do you know if there is some kind of "translation" of this emotional deprivation into psychodynamic terms? I´m thinking of bringing this to my T and see how she perceives this.

How do you see this degree of aloofness? Is there something about how I write or what I write in my posts?

I feel kind of empty sometimes and it for sure matches with the feeling I have that there is noone who really can fill that emptiness and that I don´t expect I´ll ever find someone who can. I know you also fill your own emptiness but part of feeling whole is about others around you.

What is there to do? Talk in therapy and try to get those problems to the surface?

Originally Posted by seahorse

It sounds like emotional deprivation. Does this sound like you? There are so many people who say they had a good childhood, only to realize this later. I also suspect this because you always come across with a degree of aloofness in your posts.

I grew up with it and it has been more damaging than the sexual abuse by my father.


18 Early Schemas Defined

Hey Sarah,

You could start off by reading Bowlby, who I believe started the concept. Bowlby was the one who carried out the monkey experiments that found infant monkeys will cling to the cloth monkey mothers who did not provide any food instead of the wire monkey mothers who provided food and water. I thought you'd appreciate that one.

In Harlow’s laboratory, infant rhesus monkeys were immediately removed from their mothers and placed with cloth or wire surrogate mothers, sometimes called “iron maidens” by the researchers.[36][37] Harlow found that the infants would become attached to their inanimate mothers –both those made of wire and those covered with cloth- and when removed from them they would “screech in terror”. Harlow and his colleagues would later develop “evil artificial mothers” meant to “impart fear and insecurity to infant monkeys” -including one designed with brass spikes- but contrary to the researcher’s hypothesis, these animals too demonstrated an attachment to their surrogates.[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_deprivation

It's helpful to learn the original concepts and then go from there, because then you can use expansive thinking to go in all different directions, cross crossing several schools of thought/theoretical groupings, using your own type of thinking that allows you to learn best or make new discoveries rather than having to contextualize the information and concepts around linear channels that must align with the theory 'rules'. That can get you stuck in group think or stifle your insights.

I usually refer to it as developmental psychology (childhood), but i noticed many others use the term attachment theory, which I think is a more narrow way of looking at things. Also, much of the newer attachment theory goes on and on about neurons and limbic systems, etc., which can be disappointing when you are looking for the emotional perspective.

But these psychoanalytic oriented branches all seem to cross maternal deprivation:

-object relations
-self psychology
-attachment theory
-relational psychoanalysis
-ego psychology

I know you said English isn't your first language, but I think aloofness is easy to recognize. Aloofness can be defense mechanisms working. That's one thing that happens in psychodynamic therapy-those loosen or dissolve, and you end up feeling a lot of feelings you were blocking out. It can get pretty bad...supposedly for a better outcome (if your blocking negative feelings, you are blocking positive feelings too-that can cause the emptiness too).

It's probably less about talking, but more about experiencing. Does that make sense? Experiencing the relationship. As much re-parenting as feasible. Once your defenses are lowered, you start to let the positive relational feelings in. At that stage, you start to feel love and other pleasant feelings, sometimes sexual. I think the key is regression so that your child self connects with the nurturing therapist. People will disagree. But it has to be a quality therapist who doesn't have unresolved emotional issues.

I'm glad you are sticking with this therapist. She may not be the best, but I do recall your posts about her before, and she didn't sound bad from the information you shared. Do you feel better about working with her now?

[SarahSweden]

Thanks! Yes, I´ve read quite a lot of Bowlby and I believe (hope) that my T also is into his theories about attachment.

Yes, I agree much is about experiencing as you´ll never be able to share "everything" and to cover everything within therapy. The hard thing is to dare experiencing the relationship. My T isn´t that very much into the relationship, I´m the one who have talked much more about that and told her how I feel about things she said and did.

I have felt those intense feelings with my former T, almost like feeling little again but still expressing myself through my adult self. As I don´t have that close bond to my current T there have been more talk than feelings or experiences within sessions.

I also don´t know if she thinks she it to nurture her clients, she seems a bit more cold to me, more on the analytical side. I feel a bit better about working with her but I´m still not convinced she´ll be able to help me. For me, my T isn´t a person who I see like a mother figure but several other persons have made me feel that way.

Originally Posted by seahorse

Hey Sarah,

You could start off by reading Bowlby, who I believe started the concept. Bowlby was the one who carried out the monkey experiments that found infant monkeys will cling to the cloth monkey mothers who did not provide any food instead of the wire monkey mothers who provided food and water. I thought you'd appreciate that one.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_deprivation

It's helpful to learn the original concepts and then go from there, because then you can use expansive thinking to go in all different directions, cross crossing several schools of thought/theoretical groupings, using your own type of thinking that allows you to learn best or make new discoveries rather than having to contextualize the information and concepts around linear channels that must align with the theory 'rules'. That can get you stuck in group think or stifle your insights.

I usually refer to it as developmental psychology (childhood), but i noticed many others use the term attachment theory, which I think is a more narrow way of looking at things. Also, much of the newer attachment theory goes on and on about neurons and limbic systems, etc., which can be disappointing when you are looking for the emotional perspective.

But these psychoanalytic oriented branches all seem to cross maternal deprivation:

-object relations
-self psychology
-attachment theory
-relational psychoanalysis
-ego psychology

I know you said English isn't your first language, but I think aloofness is easy to recognize. Aloofness can be defense mechanisms working. That's one thing that happens in psychodynamic therapy-those loosen or dissolve, and you end up feeling a lot of feelings you were blocking out. It can get pretty bad...supposedly for a better outcome (if your blocking negative feelings, you are blocking positive feelings too-that can cause the emptiness too).

It's probably less about talking, but more about experiencing. Does that make sense? Experiencing the relationship. As much re-parenting as feasible. Once your defenses are lowered, you start to let the positive relational feelings in. At that stage, you start to feel love and other pleasant feelings, sometimes sexual. I think the key is regression so that your child self connects with the nurturing therapist. People will disagree. But it has to be a quality therapist who doesn't have unresolved emotional issues.

I'm glad you are sticking with this therapist. She may not be the best, but I do recall your posts about her before, and she didn't sound bad from the information you shared. Do you feel better about working with her now?

Oh, I didn't read all that by your last therapist. But really, she could have been very damaging to you if you continued with her. I have found that only a minority of therapists are able handle those of us with these needs without causing even more trauma either due to lack of competency or unresolved emotional issues.

Give it some time. It was like this with my T for the first few months. Then, overnight, all the feelings exploded. Not that you want that; just you might feel really different about it later. Other people have had the same experience.

My therapist isn't as nurturing as I'd like, but at least I know he'd never abandon me, he keeps his own drama out of the therapy, he is mostly non-reactive to the craziest stuff that comes up, and can handle my really extreme emotions without having to "do" something. Never once threatened with hospitalization or things like that. I could never see a therapist who would send me to a hospital against my will. To me, that is traumatizing because of my PTSD.

It's tough when you don't have choices. For me, I tried to find other therapists, and they really turned me off or they didn't seem competent for my issues. But in the end, I can't leave him without feeling traumatized. It is working for some things; not ideal perhaps. Of course I want more, just like you.

You don't have much choice, from what I understand, and your therapist seems like she can work with your issues. Have you started to tell her your feelings about her? If she's not relational, she would direct you away from the conversation. From what I remember, she talks to you about your relational feelings. It helps to be able to freely discuss all your feelings, no? Maybe I am confused.

[therapyishelping777]

Psychodynamic,, is really scary at times.. when those things surface.. and to deal with those subconcious things that have held you "prisoner" for so long, to be vulnerable with another person.. is sooo hard. My therapist says I have a lot of walls.. the first few weeks but i feel them coming down with him. even if its scary.I've been feeling alot of rejection in personal life have dealt my whole life and now I'm feeling like he might want to reject me.. it is such an intense feeling.. but I know its my subconsious and deeper stuff coming to surface.. crazy

[SarahSweden]

Actually I´m not getting those feelings about this current T, I don´t think of her like a mother and I don´t feel that warmth from her, it´s more like a woman friend. But in the past and together with my former T, a couple of female priests and so on, I´ve realised I´m looking for mother figures and that I search for it in relations which are bound to end.

You´re not confused, I agree it helps talking about feelings but at the moment for me it would just be like "well, I don´t feel as much for you as for my last T" and I don´t want to tell my T that as it´s not a problem at the moment. I mean, I´ll have to stay with her as I haven´t got any choices and she´s friendly enough to feel a bit of connection to her.

But, on the other hand, I don´t know if this connection is enough to make changes and to make me feel better, that´s very hard not knowing.

Originally Posted by seahorse

Oh, I didn't read all that by your last therapist. But really, she could have been very damaging to you if you continued with her. I have found that only a minority of therapists are able handle those of us with these needs without causing even more trauma either due to lack of competency or unresolved emotional issues.

Give it some time. It was like this with my T for the first few months. Then, overnight, all the feelings exploded. Not that you want that; just you might feel really different about it later. Other people have had the same experience.

My therapist isn't as nurturing as I'd like, but at least I know he'd never abandon me, he keeps his own drama out of the therapy, he is mostly non-reactive to the craziest stuff that comes up, and can handle my really extreme emotions without having to "do" something. Never once threatened with hospitalization or things like that. I could never see a therapist who would send me to a hospital against my will. To me, that is traumatizing because of my PTSD.

It's tough when you don't have choices. For me, I tried to find other therapists, and they really turned me off or they didn't seem competent for my issues. But in the end, I can't leave him without feeling traumatized. It is working for some things; not ideal perhaps. Of course I want more, just like you.

You don't have much choice, from what I understand, and your therapist seems like she can work with your issues. Have you started to tell her your feelings about her? If she's not relational, she would direct you away from the conversation. From what I remember, she talks to you about your relational feelings. It helps to be able to freely discuss all your feelings, no? Maybe I am confused.