[objectclient]

I'm in a total mess with therapy at the moment. I know I need it because I'm not living at the moment; I'm just existing. Each day is a battle, I'm barely functioning socially, there is nothing I enjoy or would like to experience in my lifetime, I've lost all hope for the future, I've no idea who I am and feel like a different person every day. I think I'm having a massive identity crises which has been going on for years now. However, I'm afraid to enter therapy yet again because each course of therapy only feels like it is harming me further.

My troubles with therapy itself began when I left T1 to see T2. I felt the loss deeply, probably due to my tendency to become very attached to authority figures. I then began seeing T2 and had a very unstable relationship with her. It was one that started out with a lot of anger from me which she told me I was projecting onto her, therefore accounting for her anger towards me but nonetheless, I was quick to form a strong attachment, even though it was one that veered between love/attachment and anger/pushing her away. I was also fearful of yet expecting her to reject me the whole time, which wasn't helped by the fact that she once threatened to stop seeing me if I didn't do something to make changes in my life. Over time, the relationship became more stable and I felt more secure. However, once again, when I was terminated I felt the loss deeply and felt angry, rejected and completely lost without the safe base that my therapist had represented in my life. Then I started seeing T3 or should I say T3s because there were 4 altogether as it was group therapy.

From the outset, I struggled to make connections with the other members of the group because I felt that not only did I have nothing in common with them, I also had a rather different set of symptoms I was coming to therapy to get help with. A large number of them came from the same city as the therapy was based, a city which I was completely unfamiliar with. A large number of them were young mothers, I was not. They all shared a common interest in body art which I have no problem with but I'm not interested in, and they would frequently talk about their drug use, children, partners/spouses and sex lives, whereas I have no experience of any of those things. I felt alienated and this transpired into the therapy itself where the topics would be about self harm, extreme behavior, extreme highs and lows, outbursts of anger and unstable, unsatisfying and abusive relationships with partners/spouses. I was open with T3s from the start that I didn't feel as though I belonged and struggled to relate to the other members or the themes of therapy but I was repeatedly told that all of that was part of my problem. Not long into the therapy, my mental health deteriorated rapidly which I brought to the attention of T3s. They told me this was a sign of the therapy working. However, over several months I have progressively got worse and feel that the reason I couldn't connect properly with anybody in the group and that the therapy hasn't been working is all my fault. The only sort of connections I did make with other group members were short-lived as it was a group where new people are constantly joining as the older members of the group leave so you form some kind of a connection with someone only for it to be taken away.

I feel so sad, guilty and angry that I failed to bond properly with the other group members and that it's all my fault. Furthermore, other people in my life outside of therapy told me that had noticed the deterioration in my mental health which I had noticed myself and I could see my mental health only deteriorating further the longer I stayed. Therefore I phoned T3s to inform them of my decision to leave. They said OK and gave me no opportunity to explain what had led me to reach this decision or what I had felt had gone wrong, despite the fact I had been crying throughout the previous therapy session which is not like me at all, due to feeling so alienated.

I feel terribly let down. I have always felt like an outsider and my experience in the group has only reinforced that and I feel more alone, more isolated and more distant from others than I ever have in my life, and that's saying something. My journey in therapy up until that point had been about noticing I'm not as different from other people as I had thought. There were connections that could be made and that was proven by the connections I had made with T1 and T2. However, now I have given up all hope that I can ever be helped to form the close relationships I desperately want and have never had, yet find so difficult. All I do is blame myself for everything that went wrong in therapy, and every other area of my life before and after this therapy experience. I can hear T3s responses to every emotion I experience to the point where I no longer trust my own feelings or judgement. If someone has upset me, I automatically blame myself and think it's me that's at fault here.

When I left T2, she left the door open for me to return in the future should I need to. As I wrote in another thread, I recently contacted T2 to inquire about this and she rejected me on ethical grounds, so at the same time as having difficulties with T3s, I am feeling rejected, angry and hurt by T2. I am in a catch-22. I'm damned if I do return to therapy and damned if I don't. Without therapy I wouldn't be here today yet I feel like it is constantly harming me further with each relationship I have with Ts or other patients. I'm torn between feeling that my Ts have failed me and that it is in fact all my fault, and I don't know what to make of what has happened.

[BrazenApogee]

What about a new T? One just for you.

I'm sorry you had this experience. It sounds like you did benefit from therapy though when it was a good fit, so I would try to find a new T to work with one on one. You could still address social functioning and relationship building that way but you would not be put on the spot all the time with people you are not comfortable with. I think it's perfectly normal that we find it difficult to relate to people we have little in common with.

I experienced deterioration in therapy when it was with someone I had little in common with and who was forcing his views and methods on me instead of trying to genuinely understand. He also blamed many things on me. I just could not take it after a while and ended it with him via email, then found a new T specifically looking for someone I could easily relate to, who I see quite similar to myself in many ways, and whose methods I like and find helpful. It's making a big difference.

[mostlylurking]

How were things with T1 for you? You said you felt a deep loss when you left them for T2, so it sounds like you had made a strong connection.

You may have run into just plain bad therapy with T2 and the group therapy. To me, it's a red flag that T2 had anger toward you in response to your anger. If she felt you were projecting anger onto her, she should've known that it wasn't personal and not gotten mad at you in return (or at least not shown it and verbalized it). Therapists should know that, for instance, clients with a history of past rejections will sometimes try to play that out again by getting the therapist to reject them too. There are all kinds of reasons a client might come into therapy with anger and while I'm not saying that would be easy for a T, if she couldn't handle it then perhaps she wasn't the right T for you.

The group therapy just sounds bad. I'm so sorry. That would not have worked for me either. It is not your fault, and those T's should have seen that it wasn't the right method to help you, rather than egotistically thinking their program should work for everyone (just what it sounds like to me, personal opinion here).

It sounds like you would benefit from a T who can handle transference issues, can see clients long-term without artificial time limits, and who is normalizing rather than pathologizing. That doesn't seem like it would be that hard to find. One suggestion is that you really listen carefully to your gut when/if you do meet a new T, and don't go back if your gut tells you it's not right. You should feel better when you leave, not worse or confused or even more doubting of yourself. A good connection could be very healing, but bad chemistry could make you feel even more pessimistic about therapy in general. You might have to see a few T's to find the best one for you.

[AllHeart]

It sounds to me like none of the therapists have been able to meet you where you are at. Seems like maybe they have been placing wrongful expectations onto you. Speaking from experience, I know that going to group functions - therapy or social - can very quickly make life worse when you feel the way you do because it has the potential to wind up breeding those already intense feelings of shame, inferiority, and loneliness. It's unfortunate none of the T3's could recognize group was having such a negative effect on you. I do commend you, highly, for giving group a shot and for sticking it out as long as you did. That shows you have good inner strength, and the ability to know what doesn't work for you at this time. I have found that the worst therapeutic experiences I have had wound up being very beneficial to my growth. That, and I have a therapist that always meets me where I am at without any judgement or expectations. Good, compassionate, understanding, qualified therapists do exist and I sure hope you can find one. It seems so many T's underestimate the destructive power an attachment disorder can hold over us, and are untrained to know how to properly handle client attachment to them, so may I suggest looking for a T that specifically specializes in attachment disorders. Also, find out upfront what his/her boundaries are, and how their chosen healing model works. I am wishing the best for you!

[missbella]

I have and continue to do a large amount of desconstructing to understand my harmful therapy. I've had to peel away the respective roles to understand the disrespect and manipulations and (artificial) hierarchy that occurred between people.

Other and I found help through this on-line organization.
TELL: Therapy Exploitation Link Line

I also found solace in peer support, goal-setting outside of therapy and all manner of activities, yoga, exercise, walking, the arts, music etc.

I don't fine group therapy, theraputic at all.

[Septembersrain]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

I don't fine group therapy, theraputic at all.

I can't do group therapy because I naturally try to help others so I lose focus of myself. I put myself on the back burner and smile for the sake of those who are suffering in the room.

In this way, I disassociate so my condition does not improve at all. Instead I stay dissociated.

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[missbella]

In my situation "the group" was fine-- far kinder, saner and more generous than the two rageful therapists who ran it.

[objectclient]

Thank you all for your words of advice and support. I have given everything that's been said some thought and this is what I'm thinking: part of me feels hopeful about finding a new T who can help me recover but at the same time, I have lost faith in the whole concept of therapy and I'm scared to enter into a new therapeutic relationship again in case my mental health deteriorates further due to bad therapy/therapist or I get massively attached and am hurt once more by the therapist's lack of skill in dealing with this or by their rejection of me.

Being rejected by T2 recently made me realize that the attachment runs deep. I am?/was? still massively attached to her and I think this can only be because I failed to form any attachments with the therapy group or T3s. I think this particular group was designed not to allow attachments to happen. T3s showed no compassion towards patients and were the most distant, blank Ts I had ever come across. The boundaries were so tight they felt almost punitive. Meanwhile, the patients all had different start and end dates so the group was constantly in flux, not the type of environment where trust could be built. The whole thing felt like a boot camp that had the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger with the aim of "toughening you up".

My experience of individual therapy has been confusing with massive attachments to both Ts. T1 was the first person I ever opened up to about my problems and while I suppose that was a huge step in itself and a lot of difficult work was done, I'm not sure that if I had had the option to stay in therapy with her any longer she would have been able to help me work through my problems. She was understanding, compassionate and looking back, I can see that she struck just the right balance between normalizing and pathologizing. She didn't appear to show any countertransference either. Never did I feel hurt or harmed until I mentioned my attachment to her coming up to our termination date, when she responded with a blank silence. She didn't follow it up but simply looked as though I had caught her out and paused briefly before moving on with whatever she was going to say next, and that was that. I felt unable to bring it up again and we were not far off ending anyway.

When I started seeing T2, I thought she was going to be able to handle all the attachment and relational stuff as she was far more interested in exploring how I felt in my relationships with family and friends, particularly in my early years. This was something T1 had never probed me about and although all of this stuff terrified me, I felt hopeful that T2 was going to help me get to the bottom of things and explore the really deep and painful stuff. We did, but what was never discussed was the relationship between the two of us which I can now see as being the key to understanding the underlying feelings that were causing my anxiety, depression, difficulty connecting with people and identity struggle. I now believe that my problems stemmed from an early attachment disorder and of course, having no memory of those very early years gives little to go on in terms of therapy. The only way it became apparent was in my relationships with other people and my growing awareness of my that. I did mention my attachment to T2 but again, it was not followed up yet I was surprised she seemed to turn a blind eye to it because it was so obvious in the relationship I had with her that I had an ambivalent attachment. One week, I'd be overly clingy, the next week I would be pushing her away.

Why do Ts seem to back away from attachment when it is such an integral part of our well-being, relationships and development?

....why do T's seem to back away from attachment when it is such an integral part of our well-being, relationships and development?......
We'll mine doesn't.
For anyone whose experienced this it could be that it's actually 'you' that doesn't understand the transference going on, OR the therapist isn't skilled enough to work with what is going on.

Originally Posted by objectclient

Why do Ts seem to back away from attachment when it is such an integral part of our well-being, relationships and development?

From attachment, or discussing issues around attachment? I think it's obvious why they don't want to get overly engaged in attachment with a client. As for discussing it, some of them may be uncomfortable dissecting the therapist-client relationship and/or think it's better to focus on the "the real world". At the same time, my impression from my own therapy experiences and from reading here on PC is not that Ts tend to dismiss attachment issues at all (not the kinds whose modalities work with this at least). More the opposite: there is all the talk that many Ts encourage attachment on the client's side but then do not reinforce it in ways the client might want, as a real close intimate relationship, more as a ground for exploration where we are left alone to explore and experiment a lot of the time. This can feel dismissive I believe.

I personally tend to feel that my Ts put too much emphasis on the relationship and attachment topics they are interested in relative to what I am there to work on and often need to remind them to focus on my primary goals, or any goal, rather than aimless wandering.

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by objectclient

Why do Ts seem to back away from attachment when it is such an integral part of our well-being, relationships and development?

Because they aren't all well versed in this department. Like I said in my earlier post, not enough training, not enough understanding of the intense power issues of attachment can hold over us. That is why it is most important to find a t that specializes in attachment disorders, and, to learn beforehand how they handle the neediness attachment brings so you know if it will fit your needs and what to expect.

[objectclient]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

For anyone whose experienced this it could be that it's actually 'you' that doesn't understand the transference going on, OR the therapist isn't skilled enough to work with what is going on.

Sorry but I'm a bit confused. How does this show I don't understand the transference going on??? I am aware of "transference" and my attachment to Ts but whenever I try to bring it up with them, they give no response and just pretend like I never mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

From attachment, or discussing issues around attachment?

Sorry, I didn't make it clear there. I meant they back away from the topic. I clearly have some issues around attachment but have yet to find a T willing to discuss that within the context of the therapeutic relationship. Currently, attachment tends not to occur elsewhere in my life as I have long avoided any kind of attachment to people. I'm even disconnected from my own family emotionally. Whenever it has happened with a friend, I tend to freak out and back off. Whenever it has happened with an authority figure (a repeating pattern that I have long been trapped in) I alternate between being too clingy and pushing them away.

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

As for discussing it, some of them may be uncomfortable dissecting the therapist-client relationship and/or think it's better to focus on the "the real world". At the same time, my impression from my own therapy experiences and from reading here on PC is not that Ts tend to dismiss attachment issues at all (not the kinds whose modalities work with this at least). More the opposite: there is all the talk that many Ts encourage attachment on the client's side but then do not reinforce it in ways the client might want, as a real close intimate relationship, more as a ground for exploration where we are left alone to explore and experiment a lot of the time. This can feel dismissive I believe.

Well I definitely thought T2 and T3s would be capable of discussing this and helping me understand what the problem is I have with attachment and how to change my thoughts and behaviour. However, it's like you said, they encourage the attachment by the nature of therapy then refuse to discuss attachment and transference in the therapeutic relationship so that it becomes the elephant in the room. Then you're left with all these unpleasant feelings trying to work it out all on your own with the therapist sat there apparently refusing to engage in discussion about what is staring us in the face.

Is this normal?

I think it's normal for people who have the kind of ambivalent attitude toward attachment you are describing -- I am one as well

This is a description about it for me. It's like the combination of two major drives: one is a defense to withdraw, while the other demands intimacy and connection. For me, it's like living on an edge between these polar influences while seeking to resolve the tension by slowly inviting very select intimates into my own secret world. I want to share my perceptions and hidden worlds and secretly hope to have a deep connection with a single soul who can understand me and my sometimes bizarre views of reality. The motivation is finding someone else who will explore my inner world (and vice versa, if they let me). I also look to them for some degree of help in dealing with people and the practical affairs of life.

Now therapy can be both the best and the worst place to project all this stuff into... My current T told me that he thinks I have outstanding ability to draw people in when I want to and that he has to stand back from it somewhat for the sake of us actually staying in therapy and not drifting all over the map or into something else. He thinks that my previous therapy got derailed because the T engaged too much too personally. We figured this out from the way we both reacted to each-other in the second session and it's been continuous challenge, which he does not minimize or hide. So we are taking the very personal stuff slowly and with caution. It would not be healthy for it to be constantly about our relationship and/or attachment... or avoidance.

I am in a similar situation to what you have described: pretty much cut ties with family and don't have close friends right now. I always had 1-2 close friends before in my life though, until about 2 years ago (long story)... and the way I feel about my T now, the desires I have about him/us cry out loudly for me to seek intimacy in ways I used to instead of isolating myself and indulging in escape substitutes and in transference. But I struggle breaking out of the self imposed isolation now and project a lot of the need onto my T. I kinda understand that they deal with this type of intense transference in a limited way, it can be very overwhelming for me even and it used to often be very consuming for my intimate partners and friends in the past (not in a way that they did not want it, a few described it as a drug or addiction). I don't think that even a serious psychology training and experience as a therapist makes one exempt from being affected by these things emotionally but they want to retain a more objective and stable stance, hence the boundaries and what may appear as limited interest. My experience anyway.

[BrazenApogee]

Dealing with and understanding Transference is a experiential learned skill. My T is highly trained in it, and has had his own therapy to fully understand his own stuff. A lot of T's these days do not even have their own therapy, let alone learn about Transference in this experiential way. They therefore lack the skills to handle and interpret it effectively.

[BudFox]

OP: Much of what you describe about your therapy experiences brings to mind abusive relationships. Of course in therapy all sorts of things are rationalized, and people will talk you of out of feeling that you are being harmed or abused. For example, what you say below I find chilling and disturbing. This is a crazy reality distortion. It's gaslighting.

"Not long into the therapy, my mental health deteriorated rapidly which I brought to the attention of T3s. They told me this was a sign of the therapy working."

Based on your well written and thoughtful post, I have to wonder whether you are the sanest of the bunch, in terms of your various Ts and the group.

I was hurt badly by therapist rejection, abandonment, and by the subtle ways that she and other therapists blamed me and avoided responsibility. My mental health also deteriorated as a result, as did my ability to trust people. I have enough separation from this now to see it for what it was. Some people call this "therapy"; I call it abuse.

Originally Posted by BrazenApogee

Dealing with and understanding Transference is a experiential learned skill. My T is highly trained in it, and has had his own therapy to fully understand his own stuff. A lot of T's these days do not even have their own therapy, let alone learn about Transference in this experiential way. They therefore lack the skills to handle and interpret it effectively.

I think that is very obvious by reading many posts on this forum.

I agree with BrazenApogee, but it might also worth considering a different type of therapy, one that wont be as likely to draw out all of these painful feelings.

In my case, psychodynamic therapy brings me back ro the past. There's a reason why I blocked all of those feelings out. To protect myself as they were too painful to tolerate.

But there's a price to be paid for blocking these feelings, believe me. The feelings are still there. We have always known them, we just let them rule us. We constantly watch them from the corner if our eyes, loving a restricted existence for fear of 'knowing them'.
It's better to be in a therapy that can address them rather than have them there hanging around like the elephant in the living room.

Originally Posted by _Mouse

But there's a price to be paid for blocking these feelings, believe me. The feelings are still there. We have always known them, we just let them rule us. We constantly watch them from the corner if our eyes, loving a restricted existence for fear of 'knowing them'.
It's better to be in a therapy that can address them rather than have them there hanging around like the elephant in the living room.

I thought so too. But they seem to rule me most when I'm in psychodynamic therapy. That's the only time I feel suicidal. I can't say if this is the case for objectclient, but I've been wondering how this affects those of us in this type of therapy.

Thoughts on this, Mouse?

Oh gosh, yes I've felt worse in therapy. Because they're are magnified. But the difference is, there was a sense of not being alone with them, rather than feeling alone without therapy. Because if be a liar if I said I was coping much better with the feelings blocked out before therapy.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

But there's a price to be paid for blocking these feelings, believe me. The feelings are still there. We have always known them, we just let them rule us. We constantly watch them from the corner if our eyes, loving a restricted existence for fear of 'knowing them'.
It's better to be in a therapy that can address them rather than have them there hanging around like the elephant in the living room.

That's a false dichotomy. The therapy/self-help industry has brainwashed people into thinking the choices are limited to: (a) continue suffering, or (b) hire a bunch of therapists and life coaches to straighten us out.

This assumes that people are too stupid to address their own problems. It also assumes that therapy is effective or safe or rational or healthy. All of these assumptions are bogus.

And in a case like the OP's, where there have been repeated bad experiences, suggesting more therapy defies common sense.

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by BudFox

That's a false dichotomy. The therapy/self-help industry has brainwashed people into thinking the choices are limited to: (a) continue suffering, or (b) hire a bunch of therapists and life coaches to straighten us out.

This assumes that people are too stupid to address their own problems. It also assumes that therapy is effective or safe or rational or healthy. All of these assumptions are bogus.

And in a case like the OP's, where there have been repeated bad experiences, suggesting more therapy defies common sense.

See, now, to me, this post is all about your assumptions and your attempts to brainwash people into thinking all therapists have malicious intent. Seems an illogical argument but I guess since I am not God, I truly cannot know what every single therapist on the planet intentions are.

What do you propose a better solution would be for people that are "too stupid" to address their own problems? What does the person who is trapped in habitual darkness do when they cannot get themselves out hell and have no one in their personal life to help or support them out either? Let them deteriorate to the point of no return??

You can be brainwashed by one person on an anonymous message board? I'm not not sure therapy could help with that.

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