[growlycat]

Today's session with Kashi made me feel kind of sad. I was feeling great about him the first time I talked to him and the first session in person. But last appointment he forgot my last name and forgot if I had filled out the paperwork. This time he hasn't even called sparky yet or called long term t. Kind of annoyed by that. He also runs a dbt group and he penciled me in but I never agreed to that and I was confused by that. I mentioned maybe being interested but I have issues about groups I need to talk about first. It seemed presumptuous.
I feel lost in the shuffle. At least I told him I was getting annoyed and angry

He said he wasn't a perfect therapist. I said I don't think I expect perfectionism I don't expect him to know my cats name but I do expect him to know my name. He seems so go with the flow which in some ways is nice but in some ways I want to tell him "try harder."

One thing that was upsetting is that he was walking with a cane the time. He said he had something neurological that flares up that causes hm pain for a few days. It made me worry for him. Now I want to google what it might be. It it progressive? Will it kill him? He said he wanted to shake my hand but it causes him pain when he is like this. Really worries me. He's only 51

He did have some good moments when he said I seemed so anxious and he wanted to make me feel better.

Another thing that worries me is that he may try to force me through the dbt cookie cutter. I gave hm my mixed bag review f dbt. He thinks Linnehan is a genius. She is a smart lady but not the end all be all of all things Psychology related.

Part of me worries that between the cutthroat nature of my last job and having an aggressive boss along with having an action oriented therapist in sparky that it made me kind of aggressive as a person, maybe even a jerk. Here is the gentle wounded man in front of me in Kashi and I'm feeling myself get impatient. I don't know yet where the all leads

[itisnt]

It was presumptuous that he "penciled" you in for the DBT group. Very much so, especially since this was only your second in-person session with him and he only mentioned it in passing and you politely said that you might be interested. Hate when Ts do that!

Getting used to a new T is the pits, even after a lousy experience with a T a person has decided to leave! You had two Ts you liked and enjoyed working with. I'm glad you told him you were angry and annoyed. He needs to learn that you know the ropes and you'll express yourself when he steps out of line.

I'd suggest giving him a few more sessions. He might work things through. A really good sign will be him announcing at the next session that he'd actually made the call to your former T. Sure hope he does that!

He might have an autoimmune disease like Rheumatoid Arthritis/Psoriatic Arthritis or possibly MS. With any of those a person can have on again, off again pain or discomfort with movement. He'll be fine if he's up and around and doing his job. Relax, he can handle it! You don't sound too impatient or aggressive, just anxious about wanting to find a good T to work with. Sounds pretty normal to me.

[atisketatasket]

Growly - while that sucks, I have to say, what's wrong with being aggressive? It is often a good way to get what you want/need. Your behavior here doesn't seem aggressive to me. And gentle wounded absentminded people drive me up the wall.

I guess what concerns me is that if Kashi is already reaching for the "I'm not perfect" defense, he may not be very open to hearing criticism, however constructive.

[LonesomeTonight]

I'm sorry it didn't go well this time... Just a thought--is it possible you're looking at him differently because of the cane? (I totally get that concern though!) When you describe him, you mention the "wounded" part. So, I don't know, maybe you're ascribing some mental frailty to go with the physical part? As for him saying he's not perfect, I think it depends on how he said it. Did he seem defensive or apologetic? It's possible that since you connected so well with Sparky that you have unmeetable (I'm sure there's a real word for that, but it's been a long day!) expectations for Kashi? Especially if you've only seen him a couple times?

I've also found it can help to tell a T that you want/need a different approach. Like my marriage counselor in the beginning was letting H and I lead and wasn't really pushing us at all. I told my T about this, how I didn't think it was helping, and with my permission, she told MC that he needed to push us more. So he did, and it helped. It may not have been his natural style, but he was able to do it. Kashi might be able to adapt that way, too. So I'd give it more time.

Also, I'd share your concerns about his health. Because he said it was a neurological thing, I could see how you'd wonder if would affect his brain. But if it's, say, rheumatoid arthritis, then it would just be a physical thing (my mom's close friend has that). Though my mind would jump to all kinds of things, too (like in the case of my MC's wife, who has a chronic health condition that I think has made her wheelchair-bound--we've discussed it a bit, though he won't give me a straight answer about what's going on with her. Which I think would help me. Because I just assume the worst otherwise.).

[growlycat]

So grateful for both of your responses!!!! I may need pc people to help me reality check this situation. The more I think about it the angrier I get. Like he is hiding behind authenticity. I could go into work in sweatpants some Netflix and a bag of Cheetos and kick back all while claiming to keepin it real. But that's sloppiness not authenticity. I think he's been sloppy with me. And not taking responsibility for screwing up the dbt thing really irks me. He said he wouldn't have put my name down if we hadn't discussed it. We touched on the fact that he ran a group but with my financial situation I would never agree on the spot to join up

He seems like he may still have issues himself which could be positive if he is self aware enough. I'm going to have a hard time evaluating him with a clear eye because I want it to work. Pc people you will have to give me reality checks now and then if willing!!! So glad to have you all

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm sorry it didn't go well this time... Just a thought--is it possible you're looking at him differently because of the cane? (I totally get that concern though!) When you describe him, you mention the "wounded" part. So, I don't know, maybe you're ascribing some mental frailty to go with the physical part? As for him saying he's not perfect, I think it depends on how he said it. Did he seem defensive or apologetic? It's possible that since you connected so well with Sparky that you have unmeetable (I'm sure there's a real word for that, but it's been a long day!) expectations for Kashi? Especially if you've only seen him a couple times?

I've also found it can help to tell a T that you want/need a different approach. Like my marriage counselor in the beginning was letting H and I lead and wasn't really pushing us at all. I told my T about this, how I didn't think it was helping, and with my permission, she told MC that he needed to push us more. So he did, and it helped. It may not have been his natural style, but he was able to do it. Kashi might be able to adapt that way, too. So I'd give it more time.

Also, I'd share your concerns about his health. Because he said it was a neurological thing, I could see how you'd wonder if would affect his brain. But if it's, say, rheumatoid arthritis, then it would just be a physical thing (my mom's close friend has that). Though my mind would jump to all kinds of things, too (like in the case of my MC's wife, who has a chronic health condition that I think has made her wheelchair-bound--we've discussed it a bit, though he won't give me a straight answer about what's going on with her. Which I think would help me. Because I just assume the worst otherwise.).

All fantastic points !!! Yes I think his cane and being in obvious pain bothered me fairly or unfairly. Emotionally he seemed wounded today it was both maybe that was too much for me.
And I'm sure I am comparing him to sparky and long term t both hard acts to follow. I keep reminding myself to not set the bar impossibly high.
Very thankful for your thoughts too I'm not seeing the situation very clearly. I just left feeling uneasy and sort of sad in general.

[ruh roh]

I'm sorry it was such a let down. I would have a lot of the same reactions (except for the concerns about the cane, unless he was trying to play it up, which would piss me off). The part about not being perfect would bug me the most because it's not only defensive, it's kind of attacking at the same time, like you were being unreasonable. It's not a lot to ask someone to remember your name, which can be done while also using a cane.

At the same time, it's early and maybe he can shape up into someone who's helpful to you.

[stopdog]

If he is not feeling well enough to put his issues aside, then I believe he needs to cancel. The perfect line would really piss me off. I don't think a client needs to worry about the health of the therapist. That is not your problem.
Have you tried out any other ones?

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by stopdog

If he is not feeling well enough to put his issues aside, then I believe he needs to cancel. The perfect line would really piss me off. I don't think a client needs to worry about the health of the therapist. That is not your problem.
Have you tried out any other ones?

I don't think he is playing up his illness at all. He has been saying things about not being perfect since the beginning and it is starting to feel like an excuse.

My insurance just kicked in today which means I can finally access the online list of providers. I'm going to need a backup plan.

I'll see kashi a couple of more times. The authenticity thing is starting to piss me off too. How bout I don't pay t because authentically I don't feel like it. Bet that would not fly

[awkwardlyyours]

Sounds like he is being authentically inauthentic?

[growlycat]

........,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ok I don't know what he has but I've been reading about ms and he may have it. Maybe early stage or a milder form Now I feel like a jerk. Does ms affect memory? It's going to be hard to tell how much is it his illness and how much of this is just poor therapeutic style.

[feralkittymom]

MS is highly individualistic in its course. A friend of mine has it and she's sharp as a tack.

But his "I'm not perfect" response would annoy and anger me. It's a non-engagement, passive aggressive power tactic. It's impossible to argue with, it denies any responsibility for wrongful actions, and yet appears to be an essential truth--which makes the other person seem unreasonable. If that's his go-to excuse, I couldn't tolerate it.

[growlycat]

I'm not perfect or I'm authentic have been his go to responses. Yet not authentic enough to tell me about his illness which might be affecting his job.

[feralkittymom]

What does it even mean to say "I'm authentic"? In a way, the fact of saying it would feel to me like proof of its non-existence.

Originally Posted by growlycat

I'm not perfect or I'm authentic have been his go to responses. Yet not authentic enough to tell me about his illness which might be affecting his job.

That reminds me of T1's constant assertion of "I'm congruent".
Authenticity and congruence aren't attributes which magically appear because a person keeps saying they have them. I think if you have to say you're authentic, that makes you sound pretty inauthentic!
I agree he sounds defensive. His health doesn't excuse that.

[growlycat]

Lol I suppose it is like giving yourself a nickname. It is usually grandiose and doesn't quite fit reality.

I love that I can bounce this stuff off of everyone here.

[Merecat]

He did tell you about his illness though, enough that you know he's in pain and needs a cane sometimes. I'm not sure why you need more than that from him? It's his job to monitor his fitness to practice, not yours. If he turns up for session I'd assume he can handle whatever I have to bring - good, bad or ugly - and I'd address anything in his response I wasn't happy with. He can be entirely authentic while keeping a boundary about sharing his health concerns, it's not really any of your business what the condition is, if there's anything affecting your sessions - health included, I'd just deal with it as it came up.

He should remember your name, not least because I assume it's written in his appointment book, and the dbt thing wouldn't be ok for me at all, but I'd have said that right at the start rather than being non-committal or partly agreeable, because group work is a huge deal for me. The authentic/not perfect thing I'd be less bothered by, but I wouldn't let him off the hook with it - I'd be asking whether that meant he expected me to live with him not doing x, y, or z and that if I'm being genuine, his lapses aren't ok with me and I need him to tighten up a bit.

Basically I think there's joint responsibility in setting up a new working relationship and being clear about what's ok or not for you is part of it. For example, someone being consistently late, or using their phone in session is never going to be ok for me no matter how "authentic" it feels for the T to always be contactable or march to the beat of their own drum. My job to communicate that clearly and then decide whether I can work with them or not depending on their response.

[growlycat]

Normally I would feel like the health concern is not my business. However if it is affecting his memory or cognition I need to know that because he has shown a huge gap in either memory or the initial processing of the information. Today's session feels like a huge red flag. But I appreciate the opposing view. I would love to be wrong about all of this.

Your post reminded me of my former therapist. He had a lot of issues with memory and sloppiness and even blaming me for it sometimes. It was extremely annoying in the end. I would not care much if someone I recently met did not remember my last name, but not remembering about paperwork and not following up on contacting your former T (if that is what you meant) seems sloppiness to me. My former T was totally unable to trace our session dates 1-2 months back when I asked him to provide the info for insurance reimbursement, and when I provided that info, would often argue with me about the correctness of the dates, sometimes he would bring up dates that were a Sunday or holidays... He also tended to forget my cancellations when I made them a few days before and would call me on the morning of the supposed session, asking where I was. He demanded to always remind him the day before. He was older (~late 60s), but being older does not justify repeated professional sloppiness and blaming it on the patient if someone chooses to work. He also came back to me with the authenticity thing when I criticized him a few times. The more I saw him the clearer it became that he was very fake and dogmatic, and when I brought this up (not with words like those), he responded that it was strange to him to hear because most people experienced him as authentic. I did not say it but thought to myself, if that was true, then most people must be blind... And when I got pissed and expressed it, he would interpret it as displaced anger that was meant for my mother, which was wrong I think.

I would perhaps also give Kashi a couple more sessions but maybe if he continues to give a similar vibe, finding someone else may be a better option. Especially given that it sounds like you worked with some pretty good therapists before. I now have a good T (after the jerk I described above) and I would probably prefer not to be in therapy at all if I couldn't find a similarly professional and conscientious T.

On the physical issue... of course we don't want to devalue someone due to such things and discriminate unfairly, but the truth is that those things do affect how we feel about other people, want it or not. Especially a therapist, whom many of us want to see as an example for a healthy and integrated person. Perhaps the cane and the neurological problem would not bother you if the presentation did not coincide with him forgetting stuff and explaining things using the disability. I feel it is normal and healthy that you have these concerns.

My last thought is around the "woundedness" thing. In everyday life, I often find myself drawn to people who are willing and able to openly express vulnerability (probably because I struggle with this) and are emotionally honest... but depends on the nature of the relationship. This is good in friends but not what I look for in professional relationships or authority. I think everyone is wounded in some ways and I personally do not believe in such a thing as a T who has worked out all of his issues and does not struggle with anything. But I think it is a fair expectation that they do not use their problems as excuses for not doing their work.

Again, I would maybe give him a bit more time and try out other therapists.

[kecanoe]

T3 never got around to contacting ex-T. At first I wanted her to. Then after 6 or 8 months I told her I didn't want her to contact him. So I guess it was just as well that she didn't. But she did say in session a couple of times that she was going to contact him and it bothered me that she didn't follow through. Consistency is a big deal for me. And she always runs late. Always. I am usually her first client for the day and she is late even for that. And I didn't really like her. She doesn't listen as well as other ts. She tends to try to convince me of things (like that my brother's experience of reunification therapy with his kids will go smoothly and be a good thing) that are tangential to my therapy. But. But what she does works better for my MI than anything else I have found. If I had gone with the relationship being the most important thing in therapy, I would have quit with her. And I would be willing to be that it was quite a while before she remembered my last name.

All that to say that I am no longer convinced that it is all about the relationship. T1 who has been pretty much fabulous as far as relationship goes hasn't been able to address my MI.

The not perfect thing and the I'm authentic thing do not give me warm fuzzies. Why would he even need to say that? I'm fairly confident that you did not march in there demanding that he be perfect. Or insinuate that he is inauthentic. How many sessions has it been? Just 2? Maybe he is feeling like he has to fill your prev T's rather large shoes.

[ruh roh]

Having a good memory and paying attention are essential job skills for a therapist, same as an accountant can't excuse poor math skills as being authentic (well, I guess they can, but they would be out of work pretty quickly).

I would be tempted to show up and be authentic all of the place with this guy and not let him off the hook with the wounded stuff. I had a therapist who referred to herself as a wounded healer (found out towards the end), and it had meant she spent a lot of my sessions talking about her path toward healing.

[Merecat]

If you want to know if his memory is affected by his condition, I'd ask that but I don't think I'd have a right to know what that condition was. Or I'd be saying that regardless of the cause, I needed him to remember what I was bringing to therapy, my name, actions we'd agreed etc and let him sort out how he's going to do that.

Trying to figure out what the condition might be, whether it generally affects memory, whether it specifically affects his memory, whether he might need to retire, might die soon etc etc a keep you away from your own work in therapy. If he's doing something you're not happy with, ask him to stop and if for whatever reason he can't, I'd find someone else but getting tied up in his stuff keeps you out of your stuff, which is the very opposite of therapy.

[atisketatasket]

This whole authentic thing reminds me of one of No. 1's favorite phrases - "authentic transparency." My teeth would start to grit every time she used it.

I also think that the whole authenticity things is often overrated. I was very interested in this for a while in the past, studying existential philosophy for example, or artistic expression... But in the context of work and professional performance, who is ever authentic? And what does it mean, really? If we always said out loud what we thought and felt, the whole of society would probably be even a much bigger disaster than it is otherwise... it is not realistic and, I think, would be bad practice in many work contexts, even in personal relationships. And I agree with the comments that often people who feel a need to describe themselves as authentic are the most lost as to what that means and who they are and the most insecure.

I really appreciated what my current T told me once when we were discussing how therapists advertise themselves online etc. He said without being questioned that his website and what he claims online is a marketing strategy and is meant to attract the kind of clientele he likes to work with best. The value and strategy for the work will develop from experience with each patient, and some people want a more professional, business-like treatment, others prefer a more personable approach. Part of the T's job is to recognize these and adjust themselves based on the client's needs, not to be authentic and express their real self.

[Ankh91]

Go with your instincts.
I think I'd feel the same way honestly. With putting you forward
for groups and what not, it feels like he thinks he know what's best for you, overlooking or partially listening to you. That's my impression at least. I wouldn't appreciate his behaviour, and I'd feel frustrated and unheard. I do feel it for you.