[growlycat]

My new t Kashi uses dbt as part of his therapy. He had asked me early on what I do to self soothe. It's not that I'm lacking completely in self care skills it's just that care from a trusted person has way more power for me than when I do it on my own.
Case in point... Kashi's office floor has a fantastic kitchenette with a Keirig-esque machine with lots of tea and coffee choices. It's very self serve. I notice that Kashi always seems to have tea water or both for himself. I have been told to help myself when I come in. I usually do get something but it feels hollow. I want him to make it for me. Not because I'm lazy but it would feel really caring. Doing this for myself doesn't feel the same.

Anyone else have this issue? Did you overcome it to the point that doing these self care things actually feels as good as someone else doing it for you?

[mostlylurking]

I'd be happy to be corrected if someone else has experienced it, but I'm inclined to believe that, as social primates, there is no way self-care can ever substitute fully for care by others. Not that self care is not hugely helpful. But the idea that we can all meet our own needs seems like it could be disproved by primatologists, anthropologists, biologists, etc. Homo sapiens require care by other homo sapiens for optimum living, and sometimes I think the idea of self care goes a little too far.

[kecanoe]

Yes, what ml said. I think it is stupid to think that self-care will cure anything. It may help with stress but it is no cure for mental illness. I think it is just a line that is used to make the pros feel better. On the other hand, I make my own coffee at T1's office while I am waiting for session to start. Otherwise he'd probably make it for me. I want to get out of the waiting room and into his office ASAP usually. But I get what you say about it feeling good to have him get it for you. I like it when he does other stuff for me.

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

I'd be happy to be corrected if someone else has experienced it, but I'm inclined to believe that, as social primates, there is no way self-care can ever substitute fully for care by others. Not that self care is not hugely helpful. But the idea that we can all meet our own needs seems like it could be disproved by primatologists, anthropologists, biologists, etc. Homo sapiens require care by other homo sapiens for optimum living, and sometimes I think the idea of self care goes a little too far.

Thank you for this. I've been inclined to think this way also. There is a young and annoying therapist who vblogs on YouTube and she has a video on how self care is supposed to eradicate the neediness brought on by abuse and neglect n the past. I think this is a case of self care going too far or at least the expectations of self care.

[atisketatasket]

Okay, so I feel a little more freakish than usual reading and saying this, but I just can't imagine an instance where something would matter to me more if someone else did it for me, except for maybe a partner. I mean, if I want soup, what matters to me is that there is a bowl of soup in front of me or coming up soon, and I don't care who got it there.

I probably don't meet the qualifications for being a social animal.

Also...I find the whole idea of self-care puzzling. I am not even sure what it means to a therapist.

[growlycat]

Thank you AtAt. I was thinking that there must be those who don't see a difference at all between the two scenarios. I wonder if there is anyone n PC land who started off like me but grew to not need these things from other people. I appreciate the differing perspective!

[waterlogged]

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. The LAST thing I want is someone to do something for me that I can do (or even think I can do, or think I should be able to do) myself.

I doubt that either pole is entirely healthy.

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by waterlogged

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. The LAST thing I want is someone to do something for me that I can do (or even think I can do, or think I should be able to do) myself.

I doubt that either pole is entirely healthy.

Just curious why you don't want people to do these caring acts for you? Is it that you would feel
Like you owe them or another reason?

[waterlogged]

I'm pretty compulsively self-reliant. My T has hypothesized that I had to parent myself a lot, and parent my parents, and it's easier to do it myself than risk the (likely) risk that no one will be there. Because it's easier to do it (action) then feel the feelings (rejection, pain, anger, etc). If that makes any sense.

Like pretty much before every break, my T will reiterate that she will be checking her voicemail/be available by phone. And generally my response has been, "There's no situation where I'll need to call. I can do it by myself". A good chunk of therapy has been learning that I can rely on someone else, at least in the emotional realm.

I'm pretty self reliant, but I dislike self care. Self care feels very lonely and sad to me, probably because I comforted myself after beatings as a child and teen. I like caring gestures from others, but I don't think about asking because I don't want it to be out of obligation.

My T says she'll model care, and that I'll internalise it and use it as self care. She uses DBT too. But like you, I want the care from close others, not self care...

[growlycat]

Yes I agree that self care can feel lonely and ineffective. Like you I think I tried to self soothe as a kid after abuse and neglect. It did not do much then do it does not resonate now.

I have also been questioning the self-soothe concept and I wonder if it has been invented for the therapist's convenience. I sometimes get triggered in my therapy, and horrible feelings come up. Recently I felt stuck with the feelings for a few weeks. I told my T and she talked to me about the need for me to soothe my feelings. Afterwoods I reflected that she seemed to have told me to 'go away and deal with your feelings yourself'. I have been dealing with my feelings by myself for a very long time. I think that my T needed to encourage me to share my feelings with her in the session and to comfort me. I think
that if she responded to my feelings with care and compassion that I might somehow internalise that, and that in the future my feelings might not be so painful, and I might then feel that I could share my feelings with people around me instead of keeping them hidden all the time. I have observed my T 'giving me care' in the session by doing things like checking the room temperature is ok, she told me she can give me water if I ever forget mine, this feels similar to me to what you say about the tea. It totally makes sense to me what you say about how it would make you feel if your T made you a drink.

Maybe you are not so much talking about self soothing? Maybe self care is something different - like looking after your needs -eating, exercising etc?

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Okay, so I feel a little more freakish than usual reading and saying this, but I just can't imagine an instance where something would matter to me more if someone else did it for me, except for maybe a partner. I mean, if I want soup, what matters to me is that there is a bowl of soup in front of me or coming up soon, and I don't care who got it there.

I probably don't meet the qualifications for being a social animal.

Also...I find the whole idea of self-care puzzling. I am not even sure what it means to a therapist.

I adored this comment.

[cinnamon_roll]

I used to hate T's suggestion with regard to self care/ self soothing. It felt heartless. And besides, I *knew* what were supposedly the 'right' things to do.

What really made a difference to me is the concept of self-compassion. Kristin Neff and Christopher Germer did a lot of work on this and developed a course that is supposed to help people to view themselves and their needs with more self compassion.

And I found it to be true: While I knew how I could look after myself and my own needs, at the same time I despised myself for having those needs and gave myself lots of negative selftalk about it.

So it's not so much about what you do to soothe yourself, but your attitude behind it. Might sound crazy and new-agey, but I found this whole self compassion thing to be tremendously helpful (did an 8 week course "Mindful Self-Compassion" last year - totally by chance. Was looking for an mbsr-programm and ended up in that course...)

So maybe this might be an option: To frame your needs differently. To view your needs and your desires in a more self-compassionate way. And using imagination for me is part of fostering this self-compassion, and if those imaginations involve my T or any other person that I'm attached to - why not? If it helps me to calm down, to feel grounded again? As long as I don't live in this dreamworld all the time...

Cinnamon, thinking a lot about your post. Thanks!

[growlycat]

My soon to be old t sparky did say that he wished we had spent more time on self compassion. Something for me to explore.

T has made me coffee twice in the three years I have been seeing her and for some reason that coffee tasted so much better than I could ever make myself. Yes, looking after ourselves is something we should all learn but we also have to learn not to be so self sufficient and allow others to provide for us too. This was a big thing for me in therapy. My t asks every week if I want coffee and even though I do I always say hi because I don't want her to go out of her way or to have to do anything for me because I am too self sufficient. One week I brought t a take away coffee and she nearly cried because I had thought about her before I came. I guess I am in a tangent here but I agree we need self care but also we need to allow others to do things for us, finding the balance can be tricky at times

[atisketatasket]

I tried reading Kristin Neff's book on Self-Compassion on advice from No. 2. I had to quit 10 pages in when she made a basic boneheaded mistake about the Declaration of Independence. Pretty sure most people wouldn't be bothered by that, but I am. (I quit another self-help book 25 pages in when that author demonstrated total misunderstanding of the constitutional role of the Supreme Court.)

But I digress.

I think Brown Owl is right: the concept seems awfully self-serving to therapists, especially as they stir stuff up in their clients. Not to say it's not something people in general shouldn't practice, but I think many of us do already, we just don't call it self-care.

[unaluna]

Ah-ha! So thats what hes been doing at me! My self care is improving lately, for me now it means self noticing, not disappearing and coming back 3 months later and unknown lbs heavier. Its been a gradual process. At first i couldnt even accept a glass of water from him and my eating habits were very disorganized. Now my fridge looks like from a magazine, so orderly.

[ruh roh]

What does a therapist mean, exactly, when they tell someone to hug themselves? Are they talking about a mental visualization or some weird approximation of wrapping one's own arms around the opposites sides of oneself? I'm confused about what that's supposed to do except cause some level of humiliation and enhanced feelings of alienation from humanity?

[mostlylurking]

If anyone is interested, you can get a couple dozen interviews with various psychology folks on self-acceptance from the Sounds True people. I hope it's okay to post this, I don't own stock in Sounds True or anything , I just found this very helpful: The Self-Acceptance Project . I didn't like every speaker but some ideas were good enough that they made a tangible, lasting improvement in my everyday life (my inner critic is quieter now).

The majority of self-care advice, on the other hand, seems about as useful to me as Lamaze breathing is during labor. It's actually not useful in reducing pain at all, but it distracts you until the pain passes.

[awkwardlyyours]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

What does a therapist mean, exactly, when they tell someone to hug themselves? Are they talking about a mental visualization or some weird approximation of wrapping one's own arms around the opposites sides of oneself? I'm confused about what that's supposed to do except cause some level of humiliation and enhanced feelings of alienation from humanity?

I think a T mentioning stuff like this or attempting any such stuff would result in permanent alienation from the T for me.

Seriously, I think the only context in which current T has used self-care is when she got seemingly worked-up about my lack of a regular sleep schedule (some nights I sleep for 4 hours, other nights 10 and at different times) because of the potential effect on my moods. She didn't harp on it though and just asked me if I had any routine growing up and so, she said obvious things like how having a regular routine to eat, sleep, exercise etc would help with my moods.

GC -- I wish I had something helpful but your description of what you'd like a T to do for you would have me running for the hills if I met a T who did that. I don't know if it'll help if you tell Kashi that it's what you need? I know that sounds really like it misses the point but it might help?

I don't have an example from a T context but I do have it in a relationship context -- one of my ex-es is from the same part of the motherland as I am and is a great cook. Long story etc but I've never been able to ask my Mom to cook anything for me (and even when she's cooked, my guilt around her effort has meant I barely choked it down). For me then, someone cooking for me -- especially specific dishes from the motherland that I've never learnt how to cook -- carries a whole lot of meaning. My ex knew some of the stuff about my Mom but I don't think she understood the intensity of my emotions around it. She did though understand that it meant a lot to me if she cooked certain stuff (not routinely but once in a while) -- cooking that stuff intrinsically had little meaning for her (she's one of those super efficient whizzes in the kitchen who can knock stuff out while multi-tasking on 20 other things). But, she cared enough to do it for me (while also slightly rolling her eyes at my gushing over such a mundane thing). Never mind that I stuck it out with her well past the expiry date, in part due to these things but that's another story!

[Pennster]

I would really second cinnamon's suggestion of self-compassion. My therapist uses compassion-focused therapy really extensively, and I have been amazed at how helpful it is.

In my experience of compassion-focused therapy, the change in feelings has come first. My therapist has responded really consistently with kindness and compassion to whatever I was feeling, and I learned to really internalize that. It was only after that I had developed this inner feeling of compassion for myself and my experience that I started to feel interested in and capable of taking care of myself. I genuinely had no idea what self-care was before that.

I can't recall my therapist placing any major emphasis on self-care until I had experienced this internal change. Even then, the drive for self-care felt like it was much more driven by my own realization that I wanted to take (and was capable of taking) better care of myself, than any suggestion by my therapist. I was much more aware of the need to be kind to myself, because I could see the way I had been adding to my own suffering in the past. And then I was motivated to do what I could to help myself.

I really believe in self-compassion - developing it has made me so much better at figuring out ways to look after my mood and health, more forgiving of myself, and better able to cope with difficult situations.

I have been going through a most unavoidably difficult situation lately, and I have been amazed at how well I have been coping with it through deliberately choosing to be kind to myself.

Originally Posted by Brown Owl

I have also been questioning the self-soothe concept and I wonder if it has been invented for the therapist's convenience. I sometimes get triggered in my therapy, and horrible feelings come up. Recently I felt stuck with the feelings for a few weeks. I told my T and she talked to me about the need for me to soothe my feelings. Afterwoods I reflected that she seemed to have told me to 'go away and deal with your feelings yourself'. I have been dealing with my feelings by myself for a very long time. I think that my T needed to encourage me to share my feelings with her in the session and to comfort me. I think
that if she responded to my feelings with care and compassion that I might somehow internalise that, and that in the future my feelings might not be so painful, and I might then feel that I could share my feelings with people around me instead of keeping them hidden all the time. I have observed my T 'giving me care' in the session by doing things like checking the room temperature is ok, she told me she can give me water if I ever forget mine, this feels similar to me to what you say about the tea. It totally makes sense to me what you say about how it would make you feel if your T made you a drink.

Maybe you are not so much talking about self soothing? Maybe self care is something different - like looking after your needs -eating, exercising etc?

I totally agree with the this bolded part- I think that's really key.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

What does a therapist mean, exactly, when they tell someone to hug themselves? Are they talking about a mental visualization or some weird approximation of wrapping one's own arms around the opposites sides of oneself? I'm confused about what that's supposed to do except cause some level of humiliation and enhanced feelings of alienation from humanity?

I don't think it means either visualization or physical. I think it means that you feel towards yourself the emotions a person hugging you does. (Well, positive emotions - embrace of the vampire doesn't count.)

[CharlieStarDust]

I too, belong on an extreme. I can't accept anything from anyone. Probably because of trust issues. i always wonder what's on the other side of that giving gesture.