Attachment trauma and narcissistic injury

To repeat for anybody relatively new here, my last therapist said that I was “narcissistically wounded and fragmented” and diagnosed me with DDNOS and PDNOS.

We came to an impasse and had a rupture without repair last summer. I’m still trying to understand some stuff, though – I’m in good physical health but don’t have much of a life due to anxiety and some residual negativity.

I’m trying to understand the “narcissistic wounding” because I feel like the fragmentation is pretty well healed – not entirely but seems within reach. But the “wounding” is a toughy since it feels like it’s been that way as long as I can remember. I have a sense of something more healthy but no specific, concrete memory where I’m feeling like that except for one when I was maybe 2. So – all very new to me, few social experiences and habits/skills.

One of the biggies for me is that when therapists in the past shamed or rejected me (and they did), it felt to me like they were part of “me” and consequently the “injury” was intolerable. Well, I could freeze out and continue going to therapy but that didn’t get anywhere.

So I’m wondering about attachment and the “attachment” figure being like part of oneself, until one grows and is (hopefully) whole and independent.

Anybody else had any experiences like that? Maybe lots of you have, but I’m too “wounded” still to hear/see it when I read it?

I'd say I'm still very " wounded " and often feel it. But one of my T's has trauma and he's quite inspirational for me for where is ( he says it's a work in progress ). I remember a healthier time too. I'm independent and always have been , but whole , my sense of myself is still very damaged and fragmented. And I got very damaged by a T too , so had to work on that as well.

Wounded here too....

Narcissistic injury is the same as having a caregiver who wasnt good enough, its the same as attachment trauma because you have lingering affects into adulthood.

In my therapy, i feel rejected when i express affection and loving feelings for my therapist. Or anything he does, really, that impacts how i feel about myself, eg, feel like im being abandoned, etc.

But in repeating that over and over, working through it, your sense of self starts to solidify. Im not there yet, but my psychological boundaries, sense of self are much stronger. The change is dramatic because you start to know and see what stuff comes from you and what comes from the other person. For example, when someone at work tries to devalue me, it doesnt affect me that much because i can see it comes from their need to be seen as valued or whatever. Its easy with nonsignificant relationships though, but for the most part, you start to not be affected by other peoples judgment of you. The triggers to feeling shame are gone. Its not an intellectual thing, however, but that sense of 'knowing' that IDIMW posted on a recent thread. Others have talked about that here as well.

In attachment relationships, like with my therapist, it is much harder because of the regression and intense maternal transference, but the interaction with someone who is healthy and doesnt enmesh with you and gently confronts defense mechanisms is what integrates the parts, strengthening your sense of self. I think its complete when you can fully seperate from your therapist. Thats when you start to rebuild.

I write sometimes about projection, introjection, and enmeshment if you want to search some of my threads. Those are concepts related to what you said, "part of me". That is from young, preverbal trauma. I had a lot of that too, as it comes out in body memories that have no other way to express themselves (no words, cognitive reference, or picture memories). You mentioned the lack of memories-they surface as body memories when the regression is triggered by your therapist. The maternal transference and not getting everything you need from your therapist allows the body memories to surface. Its been freeing for me.

I feel like in my therapy, im currently going through the separation individuation phase, where im becoming a separate person from my therapist. Thats related to a big rupture we had. Any 'unenmeshment', where my therapist steps away from me in a sense, causes destabilization, but that is because your psyche is restructuring. I dont know all the formal terms for this stuff, but am convinced this is how it works.

I have to be honest and say i truly think therapy with a psychoanalyst is what it takes for that kind of structural change.

Hope this helps.

Many thanks. I appreciate your perspective very much.

When we had the rupture without repair my last T did refer me to someone with more psychoanalysis training than she had. She was a specialist in trauma and dissociation and did help me with that. I feel like my psyche may be trying to do the (healthy, whole) young adult thing and move away from my last T and therapy in general, but I'm . . .69! So there are some life stage issues plus very ingrained habits.

I'm not going to try another therapy but my last T and I have had some email and snail mail correspondence and it's possible I may still "make it" as something other than a false or broken self. I have a sense of a "bubble" or something encompassing the now mostly fit-together pieces. It feels like the "psychological skin" I've heard people talk about but didn't have much meaning to me. So, maybe?? . . .

Are you familiar with the therapy approach called Modern Psychoanalysis, developed by Hyman Spotnitz? It is meant to target these issues and dealing with issues around narcissistic development and wounds are central to it. It also works with a type of connection with the therapist they call narcissistic transference. My first T practiced this and was very married to this approach, believed that most psychological issues can be addressed with it. I could see why he loved it so much, he clearly was a textbook example for a person who benefits from it. I did not find it very helpful, probably because I don't have the kind of problems it targets and I felt the T was forcing me into a mold that did not fit at all, but I can easily see how others with the kind of problems it targets can use it well.

Yes I saw a social worker about 12 years ago who had worked with Kernberg as an undergraduate before he decided to go into social work. Somehow he knew or knew about Spotnitz, too. But he himself didn't work from that model.

There are no modern psychoanalysts near where I live but I did get one of Spotnitz' books and I do believe that his approach and one of his techniques might have been very helpful for me. I couldn't use that technique on myself, unfortunately, but I've used his concept of the narcissistic defense and how it arises to try to turn things around internally. I mentioned Spotnitz' concept of the narcissistic defense to my last T, a specialist in trauma, but she wasn't very interested.

I looked this up and it sounds very similar to what my t is doing with me and may explain why she seemed so excited last Friday when I told her that I wrote an email to her on Thursday that I didn't send and that I was really mad with her in it.

Telling her and talking to her about my anger/frustration initially resulted in disassociation defenses. Now, it's better. Still not anything I would consider resolved.

Im not familiar, so i looked it up too.

Here today, it addresses exactly what you said about that oneness you feel, it's made to work with that.

This seems similar to Kohut, with the 'merger' transference. I dont relate to that, but i do relate to the concept of directing aggression at youself because its not safe to do in an attachment relationship. My therapist has been helping me with that.

My therapist doesnt use self psychology though. I wish he did sometimes as it seems more 'supportive'. But i am thankful he bears with me using a more challenging approach. Its a rocky road.

Interesting this can be used to treat those with schizophrenia.

Anyway, good read, its good to learn something new.

I think Spotnitz used the theories from Kernberg and Kohut to develop his. I am reminded of the modern psychoanalitic concept often when I read posts here on PC about people suffering in unhelpful therapy and unable to get all the frustration and pain across to the T because they don't want to hear it. Instead, the Ts often react in a self-righteous and grandiose manner, which of course causes emotional injury to a vulnerable client. I often feel angry at those therapists and the attachment they foster just reading stories... especially how people get trapped in those situations and turn the frustration against themselves even more (that's a form of that narcissistic defense).

I don't personally buy into the idea that something as complex as schizophrenia can be cured or even just treated effectively with psychotherapy alone (which Spotnitz and his followers claimed). It may have been an interesting concept around 1970 (when Spotnitz first published his seminal work) but in our era, it is extremely outdated. I do easily see how the technique can be useful as part of treatment for the so-called preverbal traumas and disorders.

I have a very strong tendency to look for similarities and familiar patterns in other people and bond with them based on these, though it's much less dominant now compared with my younger years. Of course often a lot of these initially perceived similarities are projections, transference reactions. This has also been a major force behind how I tend to get attracted to people, a pattern present throughout my life. The typical dynamic usually is that I am drawn to someone thinking we have a lot in common (sometimes in a more idealizing way, other times both good and bad, and sometimes I sense similar problem areas in them that attract me). Often it creates a strong bond initially and a seemingly very harmonious relationship for a while, a sense of merging with someone. The first person I recall experiencing this with was my father before age 7... he had strong narcissistic traits actually. But then our connection disintegrated as I was growing older (I lost interest) and I also developed frustrations and resentments about him that I often told him directly. We did not have a close relationship until a point much later (mid 20's) when we reconnected in a more adult way, much like two independent, self aware people, like close friends, which lasted and further developed till his death a bit over a year ago. The initial phase of it in my childhood was definitely quite similar to the concept of narcissistic transference, then was the separation, and then an adult relationship. Never had any of these with my mother but had a strong detachment from her when I was 4-5 years old and then never let her close, I think because I did not see anything similar between us and in how we oriented to the world, what interested us etc. She was also intrusive, desperately wanting to be close, which further alienated me. So these patterns of how I relate to males vs females carried forward into the rest of my life and is still present, although nowhere as strong as when I was younger (I worked on it a lot in the last ~10 years). But I always choose male therapists, did not even look at women seriously as possibilities. I might at some point in the future if I am still interested in this but right now I am taking time off of regular therapy.

Being aware of this pattern in me was what got me interested in modern psychoanalysis and it's techniques... not really issues with bottled up anger and frustration, but this strong tendency to be drawn to similarities and the associated desire for a close intimate connection, which I tend to both seek out and avoid. I was also intrigued by the concepts in the theory regarding addictions and their origins, as addiction and obsessions are my main issues. Ironically, I completely failed to experience that strong positive connection with the psychoanalyst I mentioned... so I learned that my attractions are far from being purely projections. He and I just had very little in common in our personalities, thinking and expression style, etc. He was also very inconsistent, boundaries all over the map, which did frustrate me a lot as responsibility and work ethic are high in my value system. I think I had similar negative feelings toward him as I had for my mother... which was interesting and we discussed it quite a bit. Even the T's attempts at caring for me and supporting me felt similarly superficial, self-absorbed and often ignorant of real problems. But I never felt it beneficial for me to "work through" these feelings and my anger for him extensively (I had a lot at the end, more as specific response to his behavior than transference, I think). I had no issues telling him what I thought when I was aware. We kept having conflicts until a point when I felt it really useless and harmful and left. He did not want to let go of me for a while and seemed to firmly believe (or maybe manipulatively suggest) that I might repeat the same thing with another therapist (or other people) because I was not willing to "resolve" it with him.

Well, that was not the case with my second (eclectic) T at all. But I did consciously choose this T to fit my pattern of how I most commonly get attracted to people and told him this even before we essentially started to work together (told him how my choosing him was in part a transference reaction but I was highly aware of it). It wasn't hard because I could see from his online info and much more in our first session that we do have real similar backgrounds and interests. He routinely and consistently validated this by sharing many things from his own life as they related to my stories. I enjoyed working with him a lot and never lost the sense of positive connection, but it wasn't enmeshment or exaggerated attachment, more a relationship between two independent adults as equals, the kind I experienced with a few people before. The interesting bit was that I never had any significant strong negative feeling for him and we had no conflicts at all and while I like him very much, I had no major issues ending our regular sessions. I felt that therapy with him was far more effective than with the first T even though it got a bit unfocused at times in spite of my starting with clear goals.

What I did find useful with the first T though was having a strong awareness that his kind of "care" and insecure, self-absorbed relating has no use in my life. He kinda wanted me to admire him and look up to him, apparently wanted to provide that "good enough" care, but it was impossible for me after a while because of his dogmatism, inconsistency and the feelings it evoked in me. I thought about this a lot because I clearly resisted spending more time with resolving the conflicts... but I still think that it was better to leave it alone for me and move on. So in a way, I think experiencing and expressing the frustrations were meaningful and stepping out of the frustrating situation even more. I don't have a history of being attracted to abusive and destructive people but did experience quite long-term unsolicited abuse from my peers (other kids) as a child. This experience with the T reminded me why I avoid and do not allow that... sometimes even in an exaggerated way. I certainly had strong reactions to it.

I think it is possible to practice these things in everyday life to a certain extent, for example not accepting and allowing manipulations from people who clearly have that tendency and the underlying insecurities driving it, trying not to give in to co-dependent relationships etc. Of course it is challenging if someone has a tendency to idolize those people and relate to them submissively.

Many thanks, Xynesthesia. Awareness of relationships has been pretty absent in my own consciousness. It may be getting some better and reading how things are for you helps me "feel" some possibilities as well absences in the way I typically "do things" (generate thoughts, I guess).

I also like Kohut's ideas about development of the self and the 3 poles or functions. I can kind of feel the grandiose and idealization functions working in me sometimes, but the alter ego or twinship function got pretty damaged, I think. I felt good about that once when I was about 8 and told my parents "I think I'm going to be like" a great-aunt "when I grow up." "Yew" (mild disgust) they said. My great-aunt was an "old maid" (socially undesirable back in the 1950's) and frequently "grouchy". But a straight talker and I didn't feel talked down to by her as I did by many of my female relatives.

I'm thinking/feeling like the twinship function and, later, peer relationships are needed for a self to be and feel like a part of a larger social whole, which is something I long for. I had the fantasy of that in my family of origin but it didn't last or, most likely, wasn't real. And the possibility of developing good peer relationships got messed up by a family situation.

So, what I'm "working" on now is how to be my self and connect, fit in with some human society in some kinds of ways. I could not connect with my last T at the level of my extreme frustration -- I suspect she has some of her own issues with regard to that. And it still feels (to me) universally rejected and reject-able, but logically (and with the help of the narcissistic defense idea) it doesn't seem cognitively like that's entirely true.

I probably need more and better awareness of other people, too, as well as myself. Again, reading about how things are for you has been very interesting and helpful. Thanks.

Very interesting. Was she excited, do you think, because you wrote the letter or because you didn't (need to) send it or both?

I think she was excited because I was mad at her. The act of getting mad at her and willing to tell her and what that mad was saying about me. It was fully from a curiosity stand point, like ok here's some gooey inner stuff to work with.

Initially we did talk about how writing the letter and not sending it was like and what made this instance different than other times. We've come to talk about parts of the letter since then. I think it is time for her to read the letter; there is more to it to discuss. It's actually a pretty full letter of gooey stuff to work with.

Oh one of the other things we initially talked about was how I didn't seem to be so hard on myself for getting mad. I used to do a lot of negative self talk, rationalization, and self invalidation around feeling mad/anger.

"gooey inner stuff" -- Yeah, why didn't any of my T's get excited about the "presents" I gave them like that? Hmm. . .

Not sure I felt that they were part of me, but maybe I am missing your meaning on that. But I did feel that some of the injuries were intolerable, mostly around rejection and exclusion.

Came across something from a psychologist that points to something important for me about this therapy rejection:

"One of the things that your bain is very concerned with is relative status. People hate being low in status, especially men. Part of what happens when your status goes up is your brain serotonin levels go up. And when you brain serotonin levels go up, you're less irritable and you experience less negative emotion, per unit of uncertainty or threat. And so when you demean someone, and you lower their presumed status as far as a very primordial circuit is concerned, you alter the system that regulates their emotions, and they hate that. It's an unbelievably archaic circuit. So you mess with at your peril. It's not learned, by no means." -- Jordan Peterson

The whole thing felt demeaning. The imposed hierarchy, the powerlessness, the rejection, the implicit pathologizing, and finally being dumped. At the time I described as a sense of being on the brink of annihilation. No doubt some primitive brain circuits got activated. Total disregulation.

I think when people focus on the surface interactions of therapy and ignore the hierarchy and implied social structures, it's easy to dismiss damaging stuff.

I dont trust therapists to handle any of this skillfully, or even believe that it can be done predictably or consistently, or that it even makes sense fundamentally to play this sort of game.

Thanks, that's another good example of narcissistic injury -- status is part of identity, I would think, and when that is lost or attacked, then there is an "injury". Something important to the person is damaged. Very basic, primitive responses and feelings of pain.

What I was talking about being rejected or shamed by a therapist was slightly different, though. Normally, being shamed or rejected by a stranger wouldn't be so distressing and wouldn't affect my status. But when the therapist became important to me, when I became attached or looked to her for help, etc., then by that attachment process it's like she became a part of me, or connected to me, my self, what I needed to survive. Not rationally, of course, but in that primitive attachment circuitry that therapists these days are assuming is "down there" and very well may be.

So I'm suggesting that the loss of that positive regard from the person of the therapist is a loss of something which I had come to regard as a part of me and it's therefore very painful, like having an arm cut off or something. And then I would lose my sense of identity and sense that I have what I need to make it on my own in the world and that is very, very distressing. And destabilizing. Not just "hurt feelings" which one gets over relatively quickly, those incidents hurt my sense of self-efficacy and ability to function well. The "hurt feelings" didn't dissipate. A feeling that "it's all OK now" didn't happen.

This kind of thing COULD be studied objectively in lots of different ways. A better understanding could be developed and shared with therapists, to help them understand better the damage they can do to certain types of clients. I don't have access to current academic journals but I haven't seen anything on the internet about it. To my natural science mind this kind of stuff just screams -- study me, study me!

Yea, rejection or shaming at the hands of a stranger doesn't mean much compared to that from a primary caretaker, or from a therapist playing a caretaker-like role. But that's because we are tribal creatures, and our brains are wired to equate survival with being accepted by the tribe, and with social status. To me the above quote is saying something about what happens in the brain when we are demeaned, rejected, ostracized by someone who is part of our tribe, or who maybe appears to be (therapist), as interpreted by our emotional/limbic brain. The rejection from my therapist seemed to be messing with my brain in the area of basic feelings of acceptance and belonging, and hence it had a survival-level impact.

Seems like for someone with a history of serious rejection and shame, therapy possibly represents a worst nightmare scenario. Rejection or shaming could happen fairly easily, because the other person is not as invested as they appear or invested at all, and yet is playing a role that evokes feelings of parent or significant other or tribe, and so the rejection might on the surface be sorta trivial since the therapist is just a hired hand, but symbolically could be devastating because of the way deeper parts of the brain receive it? And the therapist is in a position of authority backed by society and institutions, and therefore can spin the meaning to suit their own needs or otherwise push the client around.