[musinglizzy]

How would you feel/talk to T about concerns or confusion about boundary crossings? If you have done this, how did you feel afterwards? My T changes like the wind. Some days she does or offers things that would make you all jump all over me. Other days, she's closed up as can be. My T "violates" some boundaries, but only when SHE wants to. If there are boundaries I would like to negotiate, she digs her heels in and stands behind them. It's rather confusing...especially when I know some things she does are nice and very caring, but not ethical.

Has anyone, as a client, had a T who was willing to renegotiate boundaries, or at least try to meet the client half way?

Are you satisfied with that sort of toxic behaviour?

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

Are you satisfied with that sort of toxic behaviour?

No, I'm not. Which is why I very hesitantly posted this. I know what I need to do, I'm just asking for opinions. Have someone else put themselves in my shoes and see how they would feel. While trying to be open minded, and not basing their answers on any of my previous posts.

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

No, I'm not. Which is why I very hesitantly posted this. I know what I need to do, I'm just asking for opinions. Have someone else put themselves in my shoes and see how they would feel. While trying to be open minded, and not basing their answers on any of my previous posts.

I'd feel like leaving, well I would leave . Having experienced a healthy T, toxicity is a nightmare to me now.

My t doesn't change her boundaries ever. She has very loose boundaries and this has been the most healing part of our relationship. She never sees me as a client, she will say that we are just human beings and sometimes we suffer more and need some help with that. Having said that, her personality changes a lot. She will get angry and frustrated at me. She will be very sarcastic and mean but she is being real, that sometimes means hurting other people. I don't think I could work with a t who suited themselves when it came to boundaries. If this therapy malarkey is a real relationship aren't boundaries negotiated together and with a little meeting in the middle?

My first therapist was horrible with boundaries and keeping them, much worse than myself I think. We could never get to a reasonable, healthy balance with it and triggered each-other in all the wrong ways. With my second T, it's been very different. There was never any need for negotiation because both of us have been respectful and consistent with it, never even discussed boundaries in depth, they just felt natural. So what I have concluded from these two very different experiences is that the messiness, when it occurs, is definitely not simply on my side and I don't really have a problem if the other person is respectful, ethical and realistic. However, it can be a huge mess with someone who has a lot of insecurities and self absorption. This is something I had experienced before with people (both the good and the bad) also in everyday life, so I think it all comes down to interpersonal compatibility and choosing/maintaining relationships that are healthy and right for both parties involved.

I don't know what else to say, musinglizzy... from all your posts, you have been trying to use this therapist for a long time and it sounds like it's not been very constructive. I may be wrong but after a certain amount of time and trying, I think it's probably not very realistic to expect the other person to change, especially a T who is unable or unwilling to adapt and be helpful. By negotiating and adapting yourself, it seems more to me that you are enabling an abusive person to gain from you but do not truly reciprocate.

I definitely don't think that a client should allow a T to play a messy game with boundaries, that may be what some Ts do but IMO it is just wrong and does not provide what the relationship should provide.

You wrote about your other therapist before and how that relationship is different, so I assume you know that it can be different with a more compatible person?

In terms of how I felt after trying to negotiate when I did (with first T and others who clearly tried to take advantage of me): usually it felt like a small relief and hope in the moment after a discussion, but a lot more frustration when I realized it was not going to work out in practice. In the end, I always left with these kinds of relationships, and sometimes I wished I had done so much earlier.

OK I've just seen your subsequent post asking that we do not place this question into the context of earlier threads... but it's hard not to. I think that, however we might want a more real relationship with our therapists, that would erase the "therapy" from it and we end up with a paid friend or something like that. Then why to do it with a T and not with other people, for free?

[atisketatasket]

Honestly, haven't you done that before, and it's never gone anywhere? So why try? Like Mouse said, the woman is toxic.

Save your breath and energy for getting free of her.

ETA: I too just saw that post about previous posts, sorry. Even if I weren't aware of them, though, your OP would lead me to give the same advice.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

My t doesn't change her boundaries ever. She has very loose boundaries and this has been the most healing part of our relationship. She never sees me as a client, she will say that we are just human beings and sometimes we suffer more and need some help with that. Having said that, her personality changes a lot. She will get angry and frustrated at me. She will be very sarcastic and mean but she is being real, that sometimes means hurting other people. I don't think I could work with a t who suited themselves when it came to boundaries. If this therapy malarkey is a real relationship aren't boundaries negotiated together and with a little meeting in the middle?

Sarcastic and mean is real? My T in 13yrs has remained steady. Never mean or Sarcastic. She's never hurt me. In whose world are these qualities you speak of real?

Originally Posted by _Mouse

Sarcastic and mean is real? My T in 13yrs has remained steady. Never mean or Sarcastic. She's never hurt me. In whose world are these qualities you speak of real?

It's real for her, she is being real with me! I am sure your t has felt like being mean and sarcastic to you but she didn't. Maybe it's not real to you but actually it is because I see you behaving with these qualities on here occasionally. That's great, we all know your version of how your t is so perfect mouse.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

It's real for her, she is being real with me! I am sure your t has felt like being mean and sarcastic to you but she didn't. Maybe it's not real to you but actually it is because I see you behaving with these qualities on here occasionally. That's great, we all know your version of how your t is so perfect mouse.

So you're measuring realness on my posts? Honey, I'm in Therapy, I wouldn't hold me as a healthy example lol.

You're sure my T has felt like being mean? I'll run that by her next week lol

Originally Posted by _Mouse

So you're measuring realness on my posts? Honey, I'm in Therapy, I wouldn't hold me as a healthy example lol.


You're sure my T has felt like being mean? I'll run that by her next week lol

Lol, we are all in therapy here, none of us are perfect or better than anyone else and neither are our ts!

[kecanoe]

I have negotiated boundaries with T1. I think there are a couple of key things to the negotiation.

First, deciding what for me is negotiable. I think everyone has different ideas about what is acceptable. For example, I am not set on having touch in the relationship. I like shaking hands but if he had not started out with shaking hands, I would be ok without that. I am ok with clearly defining outside contact, even down to how many emails/texts/length of phone call if the other party wants to. I don't need to have email contact, for example. But those are the things that I feel ok about being flexible on. Then there are some things I am not going to flex on. I would not be ok with no texting for example. So I think you have to decide for yourself what is vital, what is negotiable. And I think it is totally ok for this to be totally different from what anyone else would decide. Obviously the group on this forum has a whole range of boundaries.

Second, what happens if the boundary doesn't hold. For me this means what would the t do if I don't hold to the boundaries. T1 has said that stalking would result in termination. He has said that anything else will be talked about. We have talked about boundaries a number of times, and they have shifted some. But only after discussion. For example, I was texting a lot and expecting him to continue texting with me until I felt ok. We had to adjust that. I didn't like it but it was something we discussed more than once. But I am clear about what happens if things are not ok, and for me it is vital that we talk about it. Again, that is what works for me, and I think it is important to know what you would be ok with happening if the boundaries don't hold and I think it is important that you know what will happen if they don't hold.

And, I think you have to know what you will do if t doesn't cooperate. Will you terminate? See another t? Stick around and try to get them to cooperate? Give up? Something else? I don't know that there is one right answer but I think it is important to decide before the conversation what will happen so that this decision is not made in the heat of emotion, but is clearly what you want to do and something that you can do.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Lol, we are all in therapy here, none of us are perfect or better than anyone else and neither are our ts!

I think some T's are healthy. Some not. Your description of yours is shocking. I'm sorry you can't see that.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

How would you feel/talk to T about concerns or confusion about boundary crossings? If you have done this, how did you feel afterwards? My T changes like the wind. Some days she does or offers things that would make you all jump all over me. Other days, she's closed up as can be. My T "violates" some boundaries, but only when SHE wants to. If there are boundaries I would like to negotiate, she digs her heels in and stands behind them. It's rather confusing...especially when I know some things she does are nice and very caring, but not ethical.

Has anyone, as a client, had a T who was willing to renegotiate boundaries, or at least try to meet the client half way?

My T and I have reached an agreement. If I do something that bothers her, she will bring it up. If she does something that bothers me, she wants me to bring it up. Sometimes we have just had a misunderstanding. We clarify a point and move on. She will renegotiate boundaries from the perspective of, "is it in my best interest?"

I can understand if your T refuses to negotiate a boundary with you if she explains how it is not in your best interest. I can't understand, though, if she is inconsistent with her own boundaries. For me, that would lead to anxiety, confusion, anger (maybe) and distrust.

I have had T's with very loose boundaries...and T's with very good boundaries. But I don't believe I have had a T with consistently inconsistent boundaries. (?)

i would question whether I was making progress with the issues that brought me to therapy. Or, has the T given me even more issues (or harm) to deal with?

Originally Posted by _Mouse

I think some T's are healthy. Some not. Your description of yours is shocking. I'm sorry you can't see that.

I never said she was healthy, I also didn't realise this was a competition between whose t is healthy/ unhealthy.
Sorry for hijacking your thread OP.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

She will get angry and frustrated at me. She will be very sarcastic and mean but she is being real, that sometimes means hurting other people.

This just struck me. This is how supporters of a certain politician rationalize and justify that politician's racism, sexism, etc. "But he's so 'real'" they say. No, it's not okay from a person in authority pointed at someone who is vulnerable to their power. Sarcasm amongst friends who are mutually sarcastic and the sarcasm is clearly meant in jest is fine. Meanness isn't fine ever quite honestly. Hurting a therapy client intentionally through sarcasm and meanness isn't fine. That's an abuse of power.

As far as boundary crossings go, in your case Musinglizzy, this goes way beyond boundary crossings into the realm of an abuse of power. I hope you can find away to disengage from this therapist who is clearly causing you distress and additional problems.

[doogie]

With my personality and with the issues I am working on in therapy, inconsistent boundaries would be very difficult for me. I like knowing 'where the lines are'. It's really, really important to me.

[unaluna]

If i won the lottery, i would move to mouses t. I loooove her. But mouse must never know. That would be intrusive!

As for musinglizzys question, i dont understand what youre talking about. I need specifics. What did you say, what did she say? Why are you hiding behind jargon, calling them boundary crossings? You dont have to answer, of course, but what kind of answers can you expect? How can anyone know what you mean, so what do their answers mean? Im cornfused!

[stopdog]

My own boundaries are such that those of a therapist do not come into play as a rule. I did get the first to agree not to talk and have to reminder her from time to time -but it is not all that big of a deal - I simply say "stop talking - it is not useful" or something to that.
I suppose otherwise it might depend - I do write the woman and I suppose she could say stop. I would not do so - I might find different mediums to do so - but I would still write and send it to her somehow. I could not make her read them, but she could not make me stop writing.

I can barely abide the two I have chosen. I don't want to deal with anyone else's. Most descriptions of them that people give make me shudder. If one of them works for you, then great, but I haven't heard of anyone else's that I would want to endure.

Originally Posted by stopdog

My own boundaries are such that those of a therapist do not come into play as a rule. I did get the first to agree not to talk and have to reminder her from time to time -but it is not all that big of a deal - I simply say "stop talking - it is not useful" or something to that.
I suppose otherwise it might depend - I do write the woman and I suppose she could say stop. I would not do so - I might find different mediums to do so - but I would still write and send it to her somehow. I could not make her read them, but she could not make me stop writing.

I can barely abide the two I have chosen. I don't want to deal with anyone else's. Most descriptions of them that people give make me shudder. If one of them works for you, then great, but I haven't heard of anyone else's that I would want to endure.

Me either, what works for one doesn't work for another and that's ok too! I am stepping away from this now. Good luck original poster.

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

How would you feel/talk to T about concerns or confusion about boundary crossings? If you have done this, how did you feel afterwards? My T changes like the wind. Some days she does or offers things that would make you all jump all over me. Other days, she's closed up as can be. My T "violates" some boundaries, but only when SHE wants to. If there are boundaries I would like to negotiate, she digs her heels in and stands behind them. It's rather confusing...especially when I know some things she does are nice and very caring, but not ethical.

Has anyone, as a client, had a T who was willing to renegotiate boundaries, or at least try to meet the client half way?

Well, I'm not quite in the same boat as you are, but I have had to discuss my t's boundary crossings with her several times in the past. What has been most effective for me is realizing that my t will not change. I cannot expect her to and no longer expect her to. What she can do is help me deal with my reactions to what she does as they come up so we can work through them. But, she can only help me if I tell her what is going on for me. She can't help what she doesn't know. Letting my confusion and conflict around her boundary crossings fester within me have only lead to things getting worse.

It's a tough position to be in when a t crosses boundaries. You have to start voicing your needs to your t. You have to voice how her unfair actions deeply affect you. Tell her that you need clear, consistent boundaries that benefit you, not her. It's the only chance you stand for making a change to better the therapeutic relationship. It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is. If you choose to stay in it, you need to advocate for yourself.

[ADeepSandbox]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

How would you feel/talk to T about concerns or confusion about boundary crossings? If you have done this, how did you feel afterwards? My T changes like the wind. Some days she does or offers things that would make you all jump all over me. Other days, she's closed up as can be. My T "violates" some boundaries, but only when SHE wants to. If there are boundaries I would like to negotiate, she digs her heels in and stands behind them. It's rather confusing...especially when I know some things she does are nice and very caring, but not ethical.

Has anyone, as a client, had a T who was willing to renegotiate boundaries, or at least try to meet the client half way?

I'm not entirely clear, do you mean that she violates your boundaries, or that you violate her boundaries and she's inconsistent with how she deals with that?

In my experience with therapy, I didn't know what I was doing or what my rights were as a client, and my therapist was happy to take advantage of my ignorance, so I let my therapist walk all over me and waste my time. I did not set boundaries or even know what they were. I eventually just got frustrated and quit going. :P I also suffered at the hands of a terrible psychiatrist because I didn't know any better or that I didn't deserve to be treated like that. I know now.

Now, however, if I were in your shoes (and to answer your question!) I would say, "I want to talk about the boundaries in our relationship. I'm grateful for you doing x, y, z for me, but I feel unsettled and unsure of how to work with you because I never know where the line is and whether you really mean it or not. I feel I would benefit from having more consistency in our relationship. Can we talk about how you can provide that for me in our sessions, and why I'm asking you for it?"

ETA:

You ask how would we feel, well, I imagine that if I were getting something I wanted out of her too-flexible boundaries, but also was getting hurt by her inconsistency, I would probably feel conflicted. I might want the good things I enjoy to continue and be afraid to bring it up with her for fear of her taking those things away. But I would also know that things shouldn't be this way and in the long run it wouldn't be to my benefit.

My boundaries are pretty solid and pretty far out there compared to a lot of people. My T has bumped my boundaries a few times and while he says I have never bumped his, he does say certain things make him anxious. When these things happen, we talk about it and try to work it out because the relationship works in general. It took us a year to get totally past one thing that happened.

All of that is background, I guess to my answer that I could not handle inconsistency. If something is okay one day and not the next, I would find that too upsetting to deal with. I would not return to this therapist.

[Merecat]

Any time I've had to talk about our relationship I've felt very anxious. My T is great, very solid and consistent but I struggle to talk about how I feel, to raise issues or concerns because I don't want her to think she's done something wrong and because I know I'm more likely to think it's me anyway. In saying that, when we do talk about what's happening between us she has always been open and respectful and I always feel better for having done it - it's just hard to do.

I need to remind myself that she is consistent and trustworthy. If she wasn't, I wouldn't be able to address our relationship at all.