Boundaries

I'm usually not worried about boundaries in my therapy because I trust myself first. I'd like to think that I'd run from an unhealthy t relationship.

With kashi, I am having odd moments where we recognize the parallels in each other's lives. He picked up on it and mentioned it today, how striking it is. He even knew that he obscure comedian I love. He knew exactly who I was talking about Usually our family/abuse/issues and backgrounds are what overlap. I've even pondered with him what if I had met him as a friend. He is the first t that I almost wish I met as a friend rather than a t.

He originally had a boundary that he could not do the same kind of driving phobia work as my old t did because he did not have the liability insurance to cover a potential problem. It seemed like a firm boundary. Today he seemed to change his mind as long as I signed a liability waiver saying I won't sue him if we get into a car accident during the therapy. I feel like he is breaking his own boundary but on the other hand I need the driving phobia help.

My instinct tells my me that although we are both reasonably ethical people, that our mutual friendliness could lead to muddy waters. I don't think he realizes that he does things for me that I don't think he does for others.

I am I looking a gift horse in the mouth or has anyone else experienced a too good t relationship that unexpectedly went south? Kashi is a well meaning guy. This is not an unethical person. But I don't think he sees it like I do.

Sounds as though Kashi values the relationship and that is the most important thing for him when working with you, does that sound right? I think he is trying to help you in ways that he probably isn't insured for. Is he a CBT therapist?
Kashi is well meaning but this is sending out all sorts of weird signals to you and has you wondering what is going on between you, something has changed, boundaries have been crossed.
I am wondering if there was an accident when you were out with him driving and you couldn't sue, what would happen to your relationship?
What is your gut instinct around his sudden change of mind, my guess is you are feeling something isn't right, something has changed. It may be well meaning but it has changed things and this could be discussed with him. Do you think you could talk about the consequences of his gesture ?
As most people know my therapeutic relationship went south and this was because t crossed my boundaries, it was in a well meaning way. Letting me see her late at night, bringing me to places she worked, disclosing lots of personal details about her life. It all lead to me feeling very confused about my ts intentions and motivations. I ended up being her therapist in a lot of our sessions. I am not saying that this will happen with you and Kashi but these boundary crossings happen so quickly that sometimes they are part of the norm before you know it you are friends.
I am very ethical and knew that what my t was doing was extremely wrong but our relationship was too important to me to let go. I was lonely.
I don't think t thought she was breaking any rules either, she thought it was helping me but it wasn't because I left feeling used and confused.
I know this is not your relationship with Kashi but your sense is something isn't right?
Can you talk to Kashi about this and what his intentions and motivations are by breaking his own boundary and risking his insurance liability by bringing you out driving?

i got to close to my T and ended up in a sexual relationship i did not truly want since i already had a lovely girlfriend. i ended it by changing my T as felt really guilty of cheating.

In my experience, when the personal histories of therapist and client overlap, if the therapist feels qualified to work with these issues s/he can use own experience to help empathize and keep it out of the client's time, as in not talking about it or at least talking about it very little, just maybe a detail to let a shy client know there are other people feeling the same way, for example.

There are also cases when a therapist might feel so overwhelmed with the similarities that the best choice might be not to work together. But indeed I do worry about a therapist freely talking about own abuse history in such a way that the overlap becomes an issue.

Now, maybe I misunderstand and that isn't your case. Maybe all Kashi said was mention a personal history of the same kind of thing you went through, without the details. I know I feel more connected in my therapy because I know my therapist practices martial arts, as I used to, or that at some point he wasn't very sociable either (I didn't use to be and even now I still need my alone time). But I think every therapist can choose what to share and what not to, and there's a difference between mentioning a hobby, preference, or even past heartache, and mentioning a history of abuse.

On the other hand, I think the most important here is how you feel. Do these similarities help or hurt the therapeutic relationship? If you have doubts, I suggest you bring them up. My personal preference and opinion is that a therapist's self-disclosure should help the client feel safe, open up, and work together toward the client's objectives, not confuse. But ultimately this is about what it's like for you and what you decide to do in this situation.

As for the driving phobia work, I personally wouldn't worry - boundaries do change in time. In my country we don't really have insurance for therapists (or at least most therapists don't and I've never met one who said they did) so every part of the treatment is based on each therapist's availability, courage, skills, confidence, etc. It may be that Kashi has grown to trust you and / or realized how much you do need to work on this.

I appreciate the replies! Kashi is primarily a dbt therapist and cbt secondarily. But my last t was strongly cbt so I don't see it as much in kashi.

I definitely want to talk to him about what changed. Today he said that he knows me better. I don't know that I buy that. He doesn't know how I am as a driver beyond what I tell him. I personally feel like he changed his boundary because he wants me to like him more. I already like him.

Today I feel badly that I was giving off body language that I did not want a hug at the end of my he session. Of course I do but I've never had a t offer it almost every session. It was making me wonder about my own motives conscious or not. Or maybe his.

To be honest I've had odd moments of feeling a spark towards him but I don't want another crush on a t. Been there done that. Sometimes he will do or say something effeminate and my gut reaction is "um, no" in a anti romantic knee jerk reaction. Sometimes I just feel a strong affinity for him like we were some kind of kindred spirits. It's confusing.

He has shared some of his past but when it comes to abuse not details. I don't think he talks about himself too much. I just get a sense that my craving for care and his need for approval may interlock in unhealthy ways if we are not careful.

You know, I've never felt attractive enough for that to be a concern. But maybe it could be? Or is the spark all in my own head? I don't know if I'd recognize if someone else felt something for me.

you will if had sex with him

Kashi sounds a lot like my EMDR T. We talked about it ( it wasn't a problem ) and I said I thought some would censure his approach - he said that's the way he does therapy. He also says you have to be careful not to turn the client into your T. Talk to Kashi , sometimes things are unconscious or things we're not used to ( I go OMG - he's so HUMAN - I'm not used to that ! ). I think it's probably a little unusual for a T.

I agree, sometimes we think our ts have it all sorted, that they always have their t hat on but underneath they are very human. They have desires and needs and make mistakes, same as rest of us.

Why do you think he doesn't do for others the sorts of things he does for you?

This is feeling complicated, and it's hard to tell from so far away if it's the good kind of complicated that leads to deeper work and understanding by talking to him about it openly, or if it's the kind of complicated that changes things once exposed--because I think I understand that you don't want the connection to go away, you just want to feel that it's not going to cause harm?

I wish I could offer some good insight into this. My therapist does quite a lot for me, but none of it feels out of the bounds of therapy or is about her feelings of needing anything. It would be really hard to bring up if I thought she was doing things because of her own needs and I called her on it--that feels risky because I wouldn't want to lose the connection--but it does seem to be the best way to sort it out.

So...is there a way to enter into this conversation with him by making it about your need not to be a caretaker? Because maybe this is re-enacting a pattern and is not about him specifically or anything he is acting out. In that case, talking about and clarifying that you don't have to look after his needs and can still benefit from a close connection, would be really valuable. Or maybe it really is a combination of the two--your synergy together--in which case, you've both got to figure out where to go from here. The main thing is that you can't absorb all of this on your own.

Sounds a bit like my relationship with No. 3 (who flat out said she'd never done things like email with a client the way she did with me) and maybe No. 1. In those cases, I think they were more trying to mother me, and yeah they had good intentions, but in my case those were the paving stones to hell. It might work out great, but there's a risk.

Also, growly, shouldn't he sign a waiver he won't sue you if you get into an accident while he is in the car? I don't mean necessarily for injury or things insurance covers, but if it's an issue of trust it should go both ways.

This has happened with my T about a few things. In particular she said she "NEVER" does sessions longer than an hour . She said " that is just not how I work".
Fast forward a year and we now do at least one 2 hour session a month so I can reallt get deep into my abuse issues.

I think its just the natural evolution of a relationship. Trust grows.He may also have actually consulted his insurance about it bc he knew you needed the help. His insurance company may have told him what is or isnt ok.

I think you have to "feel the love". Thats why we - okay, i - be in therapy. And you have to survive bad times together. Rupture, repair, repeat. Ruptures dont matter if you keep a person at arms length all the time. You havent lost anything.

So you know how after youre married, the sound of them stirring their coffee with a spoon will make you want to kill them? So its probably good that there are things about kashi that you find unappealing - it makes it more like a real life relationship; there is this symbol of dislike in it. So you can work on perfecting the symbol of love in your heart. Its the crack that makes the thing more beautiful. But also keeps it from functioning in real life as a bowl or a bell. Or a real relationship. What is that called in japanese again?

I've had some of those weird similarity moments with MC, too. For one, we both have anxiety issues, though lots of people have those. And our minds work similarly, from things he's said (like "I do X too, so I get it"). And ways stuff from our past has affected us being parents--like recently he was saying how his father was emotionally absent, and he found himself overcompensating with his kids because of it. And he sensed I was doing something simiilar with my daughter.

In many ways, it's a positive thing for me because I genuinely feel understood--not just like "Oh, I learned about that in grad school" but "I've experienced that myself." However, not sure yet if this is a positive or negative thing, but it definitely contributed/contributes to the transference. I'm not sure if he's done things for me that he hasn't done for others--I know he has other couples/marriage counseling clients, but I don't know if he allows individual out-of-session contact with any members of those couples like he does with me. I do know he texts, e-mails, and talks on the phone with other individual clients. But I have no idea how often or what his boundaries are with them. (With T, I think the only ones she e-mails with regularly are me and one other client, from what she's said).

And of course I don't know how this therapeutic relationship will end, so I can't advise you on that part. I definitely think talking about it with Kashi is a good idea (and he definitely seems like he'd be open to talking about it). That's what's helped me with MC. And I did end up, partly through his disclosures, partly through outside stuff, learn more about his personal life than he necessarily intended me to know (the stuff about his wife). Which complicated the relationship a bit. But that's been (at least mostly) resolved through talking about it with him, even though some of the conversations were difficult, and I hadn't been sure of his willing to talk about some issues. I really think communication is key.

As for the driving, as someone else suggested, it could be that Kashi either contacted his insurance about it or mentioned it to a supervisor or colleague, and they told him how he could avoid liability.Like maybe someone else had done that for one of their clients, for example. It sounds like he really cares about you, but difficult to tell from here if it's too much or whether it will lead to problems in your relationship.

[QUOTE=stopdog;5646523]Why do you think he doesn't do for others the sorts of things he does for you?[/QUOTE

The things he says indicate that he may do treatment differently with me than with others. When I first started seeing him my two previous ts said to "throw the therapy book away" and don't take a cookie cutter approach with me.

Actually that is a great point about a two way waiver although I doubt he would sign one.

Ah, kintsugi right?

Hi Growly,

Great responses here. I just wanted to add-your an experienced client and self-aware and understand so much about therapy, so I wouldn't worry as much about not being safe as you are going to pick up on it. Not that you are supposed to, but even good therapists make mistakes-all the time. The whole picture is what's important, perhaps, and this therapy has a lot of good things going for sure.

Also agree with what Brillskep said-changing boundaries can be ok, and I think being flexible with boundaries is healthy (this is different than being inconsistent).

The dynamic you are seeing is very interesting-the need for approval/people pleasing. That would bother me, if my therapist didn't have a solid sense of self. The other end of this spectrum is rigidity and controlling. I think it's really good to bring this up and discuss with him, too.

That strong affinity can sort of grow, true. If it was me, I'd keep it in the back of my mind and be vigilant.

I did want to add that my former therapist did a lot of out of the ordinary stuff for me, and it was a very good experience. I sort of watched the boundaries. He was very fond of me. I think I was self aware enough too, so it wasn't harmful. I kept some boundaries in that therapy relationship. People say it's not the client's job, and I agree, but again, for me it's the big picture of things and most therapists aren't 100% at everything. Give and take. Strengths and weaknesses.

Maybe you could talk with him about possible strategy to ensure it won't tip too far into an unhealthy dynamic? For example, you could both stop the conversation and examine if he is saying/doing something out of a need for approval. Examine things. My last therapist did that a lot. He spent years in analysis though, but funny he would do this out loud in front of me. Always keeping himself in check via self analysis simultaneously as stuff unfolded; most every session. I think that's something other therapists could adopt because it seemed to work really well in keeping his stuff out of the therapy for the most part. At least he was conscious of wanting to nurture me etc. and we could talk about it. The talking/conscious/out loud is actually the opposite of acting out. So if you talk about things frequently, you are not usually acting on them. Not that both can't happen, but in my case, it really helped and I think it could work with others too perhaps.

Good luck

I had a constant sense of similarity with my second therapist and he kept reinforcing it with sharing many things about himself as they related to my stories and feelings. I liked it until a point when I felt it was too much and it seemed like he talked about himself rather than addressing my issues more deeply. It seemed like a form of avoidance on his side when it was overdone.