(Mods please don't move this. I don't want to post anywhere else but the psychotherapy forum. And this is directly related to going to therapy.)

So yesterday evening before I started my classwork I was drawing something from a dream for my therapy homework and h asked what it was and I told him. No big deal, all seemed ok, the evening went on.

Then for whatever reason we were both awake at like 2am and he got out of bed and said in a huff "I'm going to go look at my (fantasy baseball) team I can't sleep anyway." I said are you ok and he didn't hear me or ignored me so I followed him into the office and asked what was keeping him awake and he said loudly "It's your therapist! Why did you go back?" and pretty much went into a tirade about "You never intended to quit. Why don't you just go forever. I've worked so hard to pay things off and you give her so much money. I've been thinking about getting an apartment and moving out and just leaving you and (son) the house. Except you can't pay for it on your own. You keep saying you're going to quit and then you don't. You don't need therapy anymore. I think you just want to go. If you can prove to me that you need it, it would be ok but you can't." At this point I told him my plan is still to end in November. He said "But you won't. You'll come up with some excuse to keep going. Why don't you just go 5 days a week and give her your whole paycheck? You might as well. You just keep dragging it out and dragging it out." And he went on , and on, and on, and on. This has apparently been building for awhile. We ended with him saying "Just do what you need to do and end in November. I shouldn't tell you what to do." And then we went to sleep.

I didn't cry during this entire thing, quite amazingly. I should have told him that about a year ago, I was very unhappy and thinking about moving out myself, but after a lot of thinking I decided that him and our marriage were important to me and I worked through my feelings and I stayed. But I didn't say anything last night/this morning, I figured he needed to get all his **** out.

He'll still be asleep when I leave for work in a couple minutes. I don't know what the rest of today is going to bring. I don't want him to move out. I know he's right, that it's time for me to end my therapy. I know it's expensive since I pay out of pocket. Part of me wants to let him move out. Part of me wants to end therapy sooner than November to try and make him happy. Part of me wants to continue with my plan to end in November.

I'm looking for support plain and simple here. It felt so bad to basically be given an ultimatum: "Our marriage or therapy." Thanks in advance.

[toomanycats]

I'm so sorry, Artie - that is honestly an awful response from your husband. It's clear that he just doesn't get it. I really hope you don't rush to end therapy because of your husband's reactions. You shouldn't be pushed into ending for anyone else's sake. Yes, your marriage is important, but so are YOU. Your husband is not more important than you are.

Have you ever tried to explain to him what you're doing in therapy?
Does he have any understanding of how therapy works at all?
He says you don't need therapy anymore -- does that mean that he's seen progress? That would mean he'd have to admit that therapy works... but the therapy process INCLUDES termination and honestly extends beyond termination as well - the work is not done when you terminate.

This is one instance where I would have to stand up for myself if I were in your position. A bad termination will hurt you and your marriage FAR MORE than he understands.

[atisketatasket]

((Art))

I can't tell how much of this is can't-sleep-2-am stuff. So I would wait to revisit it in daylight when neither of you is upset or stressed and you can have a real conversation.

I would not end therapy just to make him happy. That will only breed resentment in you and possibly guilt in him. Not a winning combination. Stick to your schedule. When we do what makes us more whole, we also become better partners.

Eta: I would also say, keep in mind that this may not be about just therapy. Therapy may to him symbolize underlying issues between you and he's choosing to make this about therapy because that feels more controllable.

[stopdog]

I agree. It can be like that song "you don't bring me flowers anymore".
Good luck with it.

Art (hug),
That's a really awful situation to be put in. It also is emotional blackmail. You can't just ask someone to quit therapy. I wonder too, if he has any idea why you are in therapy and what you work on in therapy, not that you have to tell him but it might help him understand.
I wouldn't quit therapy but I would make it clear that there is a good reason you are going and really shouldn't have to justify it with him. I know how it is in relationships things becomes our instead of mine and yours and we eventually become so enmeshed that we can't separate our needs from theirs. I agree with the others that fighting at 2 am is never a good idea- it happens but it's not good! I wonder what is happening for him right now, is he the jealous type? Perhaps he feels that your therapist is your new confidant, maybe he feels a little jealous, that's more about him though. What feelings are left with, I hope you are not beating yourself up and feeling guilty about going to therapy.

[Moment]

I'm so sorry about this. Marriage is really hard.

People are not at their best at 2 am. I wouldn't take anything someone says at 2 am as their final, most-considered thought on the matter.

I am not sure you want to say "well I was thinking of leaving too!" It seems to me what you two have is a disconnect and what you want to do is reconnect, not do or say anything that would drive the wedge further in.

He may not be able to articulate what it is that truly is bothering him. I know what he said is hurtful to you but to me it seems that the most productive things would be to (1) try to really explore how he feels and see if you can get at the root of what it is that really bothers him. He may say it's the money or whatever but likely it is something else that is emotional that he can't articulate. (2) try to be understanding and reassuring and empathetic and supportive. Sort of like our therapists try to be for us. (3) try to sit with your uncomfortable feelings. don't rush in to try to convince him of anything but instead try to really understand him. (4) only after you feel that you've really heard him and tried to connect with him, state your point of view in a simple and non-blaming way.

It's really, really hard. It can be hard for me to interact with my spouse when I have the contrast of how empathic and tuned in my therapist can be. I just try to remind myself that I am not perfect and I have grown through therapy, and so other people are still growing too and I need to focus less on my own hurt and more on the need to genuinely connect. It is so, so hard. Living with other people is, I think, the greatest challenge of life. I'm pulling for you!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

((Art))

I can't tell how much of this is can't-sleep-2-am stuff. So I would wait to revisit it in daylight when neither of you is upset or stressed and you can have a real conversation.

I would not end therapy just to make him happy. That will only breed resentment in you and possibly guilt in him. Not a winning combination. Stick to your schedule. When we do what makes us more whole, we also become better partners.

Eta: I would also say, keep in mind that this may not be about just therapy. Therapy may to him symbolize underlying issues between you and he's choosing to make this about therapy because that feels more controllable.

I'm wondering about this last comment, too. Maybe it's what therapy symbolizes to him--you being more independent? You standing up for yourself more? Your having something just for you? And/or maybe he's jealous of the relationship you have with your T?

I agree that you shouldn't quit for him. I think maybe have another conversation about this, not at 2 a.m. (that's never a good time to have a relationship conversation, at least in my experience!) Give him a couple days, then talk about it again. Ask if there's something else going on. I mean, I can't believe he'd want to move out *just* because you're going to therapy...

And maybe you should consider telling him you were thinking of leaving at one point too. But think about that a lot before telling him. Like, make sure you're not saying it just to hurt him. But to show that you've also noticed problems between the two of you.

[ruh roh]

Wow, Art. That was sure a low blow, considering you have been planning your November ending. I don't know that it's possible to appease someone who is arguing over imagined outcome (that you will never leave therapy) and throwing out an ultimatum.

I don't have any advice. Just wanted you to know I care.

[rainbow8]

I'm sorry this happened, Art. I don't have much advice except for not making any hasty decisions. I agree about 2 a.m. not being the best time for a productive discussion.

What I want to say is that I went through something similar in my marriage and I wish my H and I could have worked it but I don't think he ever understood my need for therapy. He was always jealous and told me to "move in with my Ts" since I loved them more than him. He hated that I went from one T to another and didn't stop! However, he never gave me an ultimatum like your H did. He just kept paying the bills and I kept going to therapy.

Maybe I would have had a better marriage if I had quit but he never understood it was more about child love for my T, and not about him.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread but the point is I understand your H feeling threatened, jealous, and angry. My H also hated spending the money on my therapy. It was difficult for me.

I didn't know you were terminating in November. I hope you can work this out with your husband! Sending lots of hugs and good thoughts to you.

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

((Art))

I can't tell how much of this is can't-sleep-2-am stuff. So I would wait to revisit it in daylight when neither of you is upset or stressed and you can have a real conversation.

I would not end therapy just to make him happy. That will only breed resentment in you and possibly guilt in him. Not a winning combination. Stick to your schedule. When we do what makes us more whole, we also become better partners.

Eta: I would also say, keep in mind that this may not be about just therapy. Therapy may to him symbolize underlying issues between you and he's choosing to make this about therapy because that feels more controllable.

I'm quoting this because it's almost exactly what I would have said. I think his issue with therapy probably has little to do with the actual therapy.

[Ididitmyway]

Sounds like marriage counseling would be the best way to deal with this. Probably, the only way IMO. Beyond that I don't want to speculate on what's going on as this seems deeply personal and something that has a long history that no one other than your H and yourself would be in a position to grasp.

I can easily understand someone getting impatient or even annoyed if a large amount of money from the shared budget keeps going into something they do not understand or do not see the direct effects/benefits of. At the same time, I agree with others that his outburst in the moment, in the middle of the night, probably has more to do with other things between the two of you than your therapist or therapy per se. I would try to examine the situation from different angles, including yours and your husband's.

[growlycat]

I'm wondering if therapy were not in the picture, would your husband get this way over something else that you spend money on for yourself. I get the feeling that even if therapy were not there the irritation would just find a new target You can always return to therapy right? You could stop in November as planned then see if h just gets weird about something else. Then maybe marriage counseling? I hope it works out no matter what you decide.

[unaluna]

Hes not making sense. You didnt ask for the new place, he bullied you into it. Now hes complaining that you couldnt afford it if he left? I say, call his bluff. We dont negotiate with terrorists! Nothing personal, i just dont want somebody telling ME a) what i can do with my money and 2) whether or not i "am allowed" to go to therapy or do anything else.

Thanks all. I'll have to respond better after I get home cuz I'm on my phone now. But I appreciate the support so much.

[JaneTennison1]

it's reminds me of the how I met your mother episode. He says nothing good ever happens after 2am, just go to sleep. This warrants further discussion though
. I think everyone thinks of leaving at some time or other . maybe what he means is he is stressed about money or feeling left out. good luck with further conversation

[ruh roh]

I wonder if he was getting insecure after seeing your dream drawing of those skates, combined with having gone off for a girls' weekend. Partners get threatened when one starts to grow and act differently and nothing says change like a pair of hot pink I'm my own person skates. I say, just keep being yourself and let him work out what he needs to...and suggest marriage counseling if it warrants that.

[Calilady]

I know how hard this is.

My soon to be ex-hubby reacted the same as well, but he obviously couldn't threaten me with the, "I'll move out" stuff. His reaction, while not the best, was inline with other people in my life telling me the same (that it was time to leave her)...it was how he reacted and tried to control my therapy that aggravated me, whereas my close friend was much more gentle.

Now out of therapy- and this is after a horrendous termination process, taking me nearly three weeks just to listen to her "goodbye" message to me- I am just beginning to see where they were coming from. STB ex-husband is more docile now when it comes to the subject...but that doesn't change how ****** he acted while I was going through it, probably resulting in me "needing" ex-t more.

It is very painful, conflicting, and confusing. Separating it from it now, I see how enmeshed it was. I broke down yesterday because I still have to mail in her payments to her (as the insurance reimburses me and I, in turn, reimburse her). Ex-hubby took me to dinner after I had to review my billing with her, go to the bank and take out a money order, stop by the post office to pick up a flat rate shipping envelope, and then go home and work on it, putting together and packet to mail her with all of my insurance info, a spreadsheet showing what I've paid her, AND a money order. And I damn near lost it. It was in THAT moment did I realize I had forsaken all of my personal relationships and relied upon a business connection...a connection that had broken my heart, I'm having to heal from, yet continue to send MONEY to her (some of this is out-of-pocket, due to not yet reaching the deductible).

Ex-t reinstated my account profile on her online portal and I can see when she is depositing the money I send in to her. It was quite an eye opener. I was so enmeshed in it and it felt so real...but money is due and that's the last connecting thread to her. In that moment of finally getting why everyone else in my life implored me to leave, I became furious. Full of rage. But, I had to see it in my own time...when I was ready. No one could have forced me to leave. I simply would have stayed, because I couldn't leave since I was so attached. This is just an account of my experience and in no way am I saying it's exactly like yours...just how the men in our lives have reacted to us.

What I'm saying after all of this is...I empathize with you. It is very hard. Take your time, grounding yourself and try to refrain from decision making while riding the wave of emotion. Eventually, you'll settle down and begin to be in a better place to broach the topic with yourself.

[satsuma]

Just wondering - do you think he has financial stresses, and maybe diednf feel able to discuss his worries in a direct way? Sometimes people (myself included, unfortunately) can find money a difficult topic.

[Anastasia~]

(((Art))),
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope you are able to communicate with him and get to the bottom of this. People don't get the therapy relationship unless they have attachment issues and are in therapy. I would stand my ground regarding your therapy while trying to listen to what your H has to say. I worry, as someone else said, that if you leave for your H that it will bring up a lot of resentment, especially if you are grieving for your T. Take care.

Like others, I'm wondering if it's money, and also wondering if he's jealous of your relationship with T (the "go 5 days and give her your whole paycheck").

Personally, my partner had difficulty understanding and difficulties dealing with my attachment towards T. He felt left out, neglected, unwanted.

We had to have (and we check in periodically) several very open talks about my attachment to T, why people with attachment issues get so attached, how it's really more of a parental-child attachment because he felt really, really threatened by me mentioning erotic transference.

I'm wondering if your H feels similarly threatened about your closeness with T (not understanding it's more a parent child attachment) and that he's "left out" because he talked about moving out and leaving you and your son the house...as though he feels son is closer to you and that he doesn't have a close relationship with son too.

I'm...not fond of how belittling your H is to you and your son personally but I'm not trying to blame him...just wondering if he's even aware that his communication style is off putting and also doesn't get him connection or closeness. I could be projecting my own experiences. How your H talks to your son is exactly how my dad talks to me and I know my dad is...very lonely but doesn't believe his harsh communication style is a problem that doesn't endear him to others. He, too, just starts ranting in anger.

I don't think your attachment to T is the problem, I just think your H is unhappy with the marriage and maybe you're also attached to T because H...seems quite brusque and unkind...

Wishing you the best, Art.

From what you said, it didn't sound like an ultimatum: our marriage or your therapy. You said that he said he felt he couldn't move out while you are having the therapy, he almost said the opposite: if you quit therapy then I'll be able to move out. I guess he is pissed off about how much you spend on therapy. To me this is understandable. It does cost a huge amount of money. It seems to be that his feelings are really valid. I think that my husband is probably pissed off at how much I spend on therapy too, but we never discuss it. I guess couples the world over argue about what their partners spend money on. How can a spouse possibly understand us wanting to spend so much money on this really odd therapy relationship?

He wanted to move out because I went back to therapy and it pissed him off. eta: at least, that's what he SAID. but there's likely more going on that i don't know. yet.

[Anne2.0]

I could be so far off based I'm out of the park altogether, but two things come to mind from my own experience.

First, it may help to ask the question is this marriage what you really want? Are you ever going to get what you want from him? Is this marriage fulfilling you, helping you grow as a person, giving you the life that you want? Or is this marriage holding you back from the life that you want?

There was a time in my marriage where I realized I was never going to get what I wanted if I remained married. I did understand that I could tolerate it, that there were benefits (including financial ones) to doing so. He wasn't abusive and he did whatever I asked to make the various parts of my life work for me, including me going to therapy for a really long time. That is really what struck me about your experience here. That your H doesn't seem to want to work with you to get you what you need. To me that would be a deal breaker; because even in the darkest place in my marriage my H really wanted me to have what I wanted, even if it meant financial sacrifices for him.

Part of what my work was in T (and still ongoing) was figuring out what to do when my life was not the one I wanted for myself (and my child). As I've gotten better at going after what I wanted, I feel that I need therapy less (it's been 8 years on this stretch with this T). It's not painful to have taken the summer off and am now going back every other week (a huge step for me, one I tried to take before but it was too hard).

I experienced so much fear going after what I wanted. It is a huge thing to decide to split up with someone. I sense with you, and again I don't know squat about you. But my feeling is that this marriage cages you in, squashes you down, torques your spirit. Be free, swim on. I'm just not sure it's T you need to be free of.

I think he's given you the perfect opening to be free. "Sure, go ahead and move out, that sounds like a good idea." It's probably painful for him to realize he isn't the partner you need, but it takes someone with a really strong core to admit that.

I apologize if I have overstepped. I haven't posted here in a long time, I read occasionally but I think I don't really have it in me to function well in an online board. Your story just pinged something in me, and I replied because I thought there might be a tiny chance that what I had to say might be helpful.

[feralkittymom]

Hope all is well for you, Anne2.0.

Art, I will say right upfront, your husband infuriates me--so take everything I say with that enormous chunk of salt! He seems very emotionally immature and irresponsible within your family. He also seems to default to always blaming you for his feelings, feelings he refuses to deal with as an adult in any productive way. And I'm at the point where I can't find a lot of sympathy for him because he seems to show himself over and over to be resistant to accepting responsibility for himself.

If I remember correctly, (and I apologize if I'm remembering wrongly) you contribute more to the family's financial stability than he does, he pushed for the move which came with an increased financial burden, and he feels entitled to spend some of the money he earns on gambling. I just don't see where he recognizes that he is expected to contribute (financially and emotionally) to, as well as benefit from, a family.

But that's me, not you. I think Anne's points are very well-founded: what do you want? It seems like a lot of the turmoil you grapple with in therapy is the squelching of your nature. Yet somehow, you assume that this originates within yourself, not your environment--and your husband seems very comfortable with you believing that because it lets him continue to avoid taking responsibility for his life. The more you change, the more difficult it is for him to avoid his discomfort. And maybe it's been safer for you, too, to experience ruptures with T rather than with your husband?

The reason I don't see therapy as the problem here is that I haven't seen you post about any real life negative consequences of being in therapy (except that the $ incites your husband's anger, yet you don't spend recklessly on therapy: I've seen you post about working over-time and using your bonuses). Just the opposite: your depression left, you're experiencing happiness and self confidence, you've been pro-active at work, you've widened your social circle, you've started taking classes! Other than your relationship with your husband, has there been any negative consequence in your life from therapy? It seems to me the only one unhappy with your therapy is your husband. That just appears very selfish to me and makes me question his commitment to you as a person.

You deserve to have agency over your life; I wish your husband could see that.