[granite1]

i think this session went better . i was terrified to talk at first .i just sat there and my T seemed to start responding like the last time we met. she asked me what i wanted to work on .i was so scared to answer her . i couldnt say anything right last session . i just kept my head down. i showed her that i had brought the book she wanted me to and she said that book is used to help work with the material i bring to therapy but if im not going to talk we cant use it . unless i want to bring up something to work on . i couldnt . she let out a big sigh and said ,i see this is not going to end well this session either . she said she cant let me be so far in my head . she asked if this was how i wanted to spend my session. it was a direct yes or no question i could handle .i shook my head no. she then said that she cant help if i dont tell her what is going on.

i told her that i couldnt get our last session out of my head . and then i couldnt speak again .it was just so hard to talk.i know it is stupid but still so hard .she asked how i felt about our last session .after a bit i told her it was so horrible . she asked what i meant . i told her i was so confused and although she said she was not behaving like the mother it seemed to me she was exactly like the mother. she said she knows that the mother is a horrible ***** and that she doesnt like being seen as the horrible mother because she is not like her in any way and never will be . i told her that she was sounding exactly like her and saying the same things she would say . she wanted to know what it was . i told her about how it feels when she demanded that i keep looking at her . just like how the mother would sit me in that chair shouting at me humiliating me mocking me and all the time demanding i look at her .

she said that she had me look at her aand put my feet on the ground because i was starting to loose touch with reality and that she could see it happening. so she knew i was getting her confused with the mother .she said the things i was hearing and seeing were not her .it was stuff i was making up in my mind.she said that she has not seen me do that in a long long time .probably not sense i first came to see her . she said she couldn't let me leave the office until she felt i was safe .at the time i was not in a good place at all . she said i was to far in my head and she needed to bring me out . she told me that i needed to have that happen or something like that .she said when someone has been as traumatized by abuse like this these things are going to happen and that it is ok .that i needed to see that it is ok to loose it and to feel the things like that .to be able to have a different experience .im not saying it the same as she did .it made more sense how she said it . i told her that i was so confused .she said that happens and that it was ok . she said therapy isnt always about talking .it is about change and feelings and so on . it is about having a corrective experience . that i can see that she was angry with me and that she was not going to punish me or lock me in my room or anything the horrible mother would do . and what i was seeing and hearing and feeling was made in my head . i find it hard to believe i was that out of touch with what was going on as she says . she said i was unable to distinguish between her and the mother . even in this session she kept on telling me to look at her and to not disappear in my head so much .she cant let that happen. i dont understand what is going on with me if what she says is true . why am i having such a hard time now . last week was horrible. all these thoughts and memories kept on playing in my head . but it all seemed to be around her and the mother. i guess for a few sessions we are going to be working on me being able to see her as different then the mother . i feel so stupid about this . has anyone else struggled with this kind of thing . if so how was it dealt with

You are so absolutely NOT stupid, dear granite. You are doing very difficult work and you are strong and brave and I wish I had a mirror that I could hold up to reflect back to you what I see in you (that strength and bravery and light) just through what you share in your posts. Sending hugs and good thoughts to you.

[unaluna]

I would say, youre that IN touch, with the repetition compulsion, or whatever it is thats going on between you and your t in your therapy. Like artie says, youre doing very hard work and doing it very well. I remember my longterm t saying, the longer you can hold two conflicting ideas in your head at the same time, the better off you will be, ie in getting to resolve the issue? So, that it seems difficult or confusing now, doesnt mean its wrong. Shyte always seems simple AFTER you solve it.

Has your therapist talked to you about PTSD? What you describe very much reminds me of several full-blown dissociative flashbacks I experienced in relation to therapy sessions. I would go through an experience in therapy where distinguishing what was happening to me in the present from what had happened to me in the past was just not possible for me. My therapists would tell me later they could see it happening, but pulling me back into the present where I could distinguish truly what was going on was very difficult for them. They, too, would have never let me leave the office in the middle of that kind of state, and while I would have experienced being not allowed to leave as mean or wrong, they would have been absolutely right to keep me there until I was safe to leave. In fact, one time I did leave in that state and when I finally came back into reality, I was a hundred miles away; I didn't know where I was, and that was extremely dangerous -- I had been driving in that state.

You aren't stupid. You are experiencing something that some of us who fall into true flashbacks have to deal with from time to time. It's confusing and rather terrifying, and it can happen without much warning (but my biggest issues with this happened during the most difficult parts of therapy when I was working head-on with trauma issues). It sounds like your therapist recognized what was happening and kept you safe during that last session; I know it didn't feel safe, but she worked to get you present and kept you from leaving in that kind of condition in the middle of the flashback.

[Perna]

Granite, I think I had that exact experience in therapy too. Think about how well you close down, get back into your head where "she" can't get you and trust yourself/that! If you know you can shut down really well, really fast, then it is okay to try to stay open a little longer, see what "happens". Notice that, like your T says, nothing really bad happens, you don't get yelled at or locked in rooms, etc. Keep reminding yourself she is just trying to talk to you, that it's just words and try to get curious as to what might happen if you say X or Y, if you look at her and say a sentence.

Think of it like you are trying to move -- you throw yourself/a good, true sentence about how you feel, what you want, what you know, way out there and anchor it beyond you and T (pretend she's next to you trying to help or just be with you where you are, like a friend, instead of in front of you) and then retreat to where you "are" then slowly pull yourself up to where you have thrown your hook out in front of you. Sure, your T will run to where you throw the hook, all excited but eventually she'll get it/comment on it and you can acknowledge it and that will be something you can work with together.

Originally Posted by lolagrace

Has your therapist talked to you about PTSD? What you describe very much reminds me of several full-blown dissociative flashbacks I experienced in relation to therapy sessions. I would go through an experience in therapy where distinguishing what was happening to me in the present from what had happened to me in the past was just not possible for me. My therapists would tell me later they could see it happening, but pulling me back into the present where I could distinguish truly what was going on was very difficult for them. They, too, would have never let me leave the office in the middle of that kind of state, and while I would have experienced being not allowed to leave as mean or wrong, they would have been absolutely right to keep me there until I was safe to leave. In fact, one time I did leave in that state and when I finally came back into reality, I was a hundred miles away; I didn't know where I was, and that was extremely dangerous -- I had been driving in that state.

You aren't stupid. You are experiencing something that some of us who fall into true flashbacks have to deal with from time to time. It's confusing and rather terrifying, and it can happen without much warning (but my biggest issues with this happened during the most difficult parts of therapy when I was working head-on with trauma issues). It sounds like your therapist recognized what was happening and kept you safe during that last session; I know it didn't feel safe, but she worked to get you present and kept you from leaving in that kind of condition in the middle of the flashback.

To add on, something I read in the clinical literature is that standard grounding techniques don't work with "dissociative flashbacks". That's the term used too in that thing I read to describe a flashback where the person is unable to distinguish past from present and literally feels it's happening afresh all over again. Sorry that I don't have a source.

I'm not trying to label your experience granite as X or Y, just adding on to Lola's post.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by ArtieSwimsOn

You are so absolutely NOT stupid, dear granite. You are doing very difficult work and you are strong and brave and I wish I had a mirror that I could hold up to reflect back to you what I see in you (that strength and bravery and light) just through what you share in your posts. Sending hugs and good thoughts to you.

thank you artie .you are so sweet . i am feeling better now .i hope it stays this way

[granite1]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I would say, youre that IN touch, with the repetition compulsion, or whatever it is thats going on between you and your t in your therapy. Like artie says, youre doing very hard work and doing it very well. I remember my longterm t saying, the longer you can hold two conflicting ideas in your head at the same time, the better off you will be, ie in getting to resolve the issue? So, that it seems difficult or confusing now, doesnt mean its wrong. Shyte always seems simple AFTER you solve it.

thanks . those two conflicting images are so confusing . that day i am so convinced she was doing what i thought and wanting to hurt me in some way . i hate that i was in that state now .i am so ashamed of all of it

[granite1]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

Has your therapist talked to you about PTSD? What you describe very much reminds me of several full-blown dissociative flashbacks I experienced in relation to therapy sessions. I would go through an experience in therapy where distinguishing what was happening to me in the present from what had happened to me in the past was just not possible for me. My therapists would tell me later they could see it happening, but pulling me back into the present where I could distinguish truly what was going on was very difficult for them. They, too, would have never let me leave the office in the middle of that kind of state, and while I would have experienced being not allowed to leave as mean or wrong, they would have been absolutely right to keep me there until I was safe to leave. In fact, one time I did leave in that state and when I finally came back into reality, I was a hundred miles away; I didn't know where I was, and that was extremely dangerous -- I had been driving in that state.

You aren't stupid. You are experiencing something that some of us who fall into true flashbacks have to deal with from time to time. It's confusing and rather terrifying, and it can happen without much warning (but my biggest issues with this happened during the most difficult parts of therapy when I was working head-on with trauma issues). It sounds like your therapist recognized what was happening and kept you safe during that last session; I know it didn't feel safe, but she worked to get you present and kept you from leaving in that kind of condition in the middle of the flashback.

hi lola ,i have missed you bunches . i was so terrified about everything going on .i am better now but then i didnt think i was ever going to be ok . how do i stop this from happening .it has happened before and i am still kind of feeling what i saw that was going on was the truth . it shakes me up . my T tells me i need to learn to see the difference . im not sure i can because it is so real to me .i hate it .she says that she thinks this needed to happen for some reason .now we can work on this . im not so sure it is something that can change .

[granite1]

Originally Posted by Perna

Granite, I think I had that exact experience in therapy too. Think about how well you close down, get back into your head where "she" can't get you and trust yourself/that! If you know you can shut down really well, really fast, then it is okay to try to stay open a little longer, see what "happens". Notice that, like your T says, nothing really bad happens, you don't get yelled at or locked in rooms, etc. Keep reminding yourself she is just trying to talk to you, that it's just words and try to get curious as to what might happen if you say X or Y, if you look at her and say a sentence.

Think of it like you are trying to move -- you throw yourself/a good, true sentence about how you feel, what you want, what you know, way out there and anchor it beyond you and T (pretend she's next to you trying to help or just be with you where you are, like a friend, instead of in front of you) and then retreat to where you "are" then slowly pull yourself up to where you have thrown your hook out in front of you. Sure, your T will run to where you throw the hook, all excited but eventually she'll get it/comment on it and you can acknowledge it and that will be something you can work with together.

im so sorry you had the same things going on . how did your T deal with it . did she yell at you or tell you to look at her .for me it seemed to make things worse .like the mother telling me to look at her as she is berating me . it was all the same and even when i was looking at my T all i could think of it the mother was right .this person was right ,just like the mother . i was terrified of it all.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by QuietMind

To add on, something I read in the clinical literature is that standard grounding techniques don't work with "dissociative flashbacks". That's the term used too in that thing I read to describe a flashback where the person is unable to distinguish past from present and literally feels it's happening afresh all over again. Sorry that I don't have a source.

I'm not trying to label your experience granite as X or Y, just adding on to Lola's post.

did the article say what kind of things did work

Originally Posted by granite1

did the article say what kind of things did work

No it was a brief paragraph. Searching "dissociative flashback" in Google Scholar turns up a snippet about "at it's most extreme level, the client experiences s full dissociative flashback, where all awareness of present reality is lost".

Originally Posted by granite1

did the article say what kind of things did work

This is going to be long. Sorry in advance.

As hard as it was in the intensity of the moment (and those moments really were only a small percentage of the time really -- they just felt constant), I had to work the other 85% of the time when I really was present to constantly remind myself that this therapist really was on my side. He wasn't my abuser. He wasn't working with the underlying motivation of my abusers to find ways to actively hurt me and bring chaos into my life. His goal was to help me reach a place where I wasn't in so much pain that I couldn't function. His goal was to give me the support I needed to find I way to heal those opens wounds I had been left with.

When I could keep that in mind and focus on that therapist as my champion, then I could take a deep breath and verbalize those darkest secrets and horrendous experiences . . . one sentence at a time. I know some will balk at my use of the word "champion," but I'm talking about the therapist as my supporter, defender, advocate - that person willing to walk into battle with me. Some people don't need or see a therapist that way and I hope they'll just leave their opinions aside (sometimes biting the tongue is a virtue). Some of us truly are in battle with our historical demons, and we need a person willing to be that person for us; I think you may be one of them and will understand what I am saying.

One thing my therapist worked with me on was recognizing the early warning signs that I might be headed into that state where I got so easily lost in my head (dissociation). Stopping me right away before I slipped into that state became essential because the longer I was allowed to get lost in my head, the more frightening it was and the more difficult it was to bring me out of it. Yes, that meant at times the therapists had to be firm with me, but the alternative was slipping into that flashback which was far more frightening than my therapist firmly speaking to me in order to regain my focus and keep me present. And if spoken to firmly, it was vital that I remember that the firmness was NOT about the therapist in any way being angry with me or trying to hurt me; on the contrary, he was preventing me from further trauma.

What are your warning signs? I didn't respond to your post last week, but I did read it and this crossed my mind. Was it getting anxious and fearful when you left something in your car and that set you already into a state of beginning dissociation before you even walked into her office last week? Thus, you approached her immediately like you would have the mother instead of as the person who would never have been angry at something so trivial as leaving something in your car? Thus, you heard her as the mother and everything spun out of control in your head from there, you only hearing and experiencing what you knew and expected from the mother? (That would be my guess having been through a similar situation.) It doesn't make you stupid or wrong or dumb or any other negative adjective you habitually apply to yourself. It means your traumatic history has set you up to be reactive and defensive as a protection against further pain. Unfortunately, those defenses we used in childhood don't work well for us as adults; they tend to create problems in communication and interpersonal relationships. It's HARD work to reset those default reactions and takes very active, conscious work (which is itself difficult for those of us prone to dissociate.)

Right now I don't see you able to believe your therapist truly has your best interests in mind. You have trouble separating your therapist from the mother even when you aren't dissociating. You tend to predict her actions will be like your mother before you even walk into session which sets you up to be negatively reactive. I'm not sure how to explain to you how to walk into sessions with a different perspective of your therapist, but that probably is where you are going to need to start.

Be forgiving of yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Place your anger directly where it truly lies -- with the mother and any other individuals in your life who left you in this place. Your therapist didn't do that to you; your therapist is angry with the mother, not you. Your therapist wants more than anything that you weren't in so much pain.

I say it a lot, and I know it sounds trite, but it really isn't. Breathe. Stop and breathe before you react. Fight to battle your default reactions and choose to slow down and think before you react. It is NOT an easy thing to do. It took me years and years to get to where I could do that consciously, deliberately, and pretty consistently. I failed at it over and over and over again. But don't give up. It is worth it when you finally start seeing your inner power to make those choices instead of being constantly at the will of your spiraling emotions.

You've come a long way from the woman who couldn't even speak in session. Now you are speaking, but that is terrifying and is setting off memories and reactions that are difficult. It will get better with time. Sorry, I can't tell you how long. I can't tell you what specifically you'll have to do to get through this period. But it will pass eventually. There is the other side of this nightmare.

You are perhaps the strongest person on this forum. I truly believe that. I wish you could see it.

Decent Psychotherapy Today article about flashbacks: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ling-flashback

"What can a person do about implicit flashbacks? Three things: 1. Recognize that when an emotion is too intense and too persistent to fit the current situation, you may be experiencing the flashback of an experience from early childhood. 2. Face-to-face with an attuned and empathic therapist, put the emotions into words. Doing so links the therapist's presence to the emotions in the flashback, and neutralizes them; 3. Tell the therapist in detail what triggered the flashback; by linking the therapist's presence to the triggers, the triggers are neutralized."

I found #1 to be vital in stopping the flashbacks/dissociation in its tracks. That's where the stopping and breathing and slowing down before reacting came in that I wrote about above.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

This is going to be long. Sorry in advance.

As hard as it was in the intensity of the moment (and those moments really were only a small percentage of the time really -- they just felt constant), I had to work the other 85% of the time when I really was present to constantly remind myself that this therapist really was on my side. He wasn't my abuser. He wasn't working with the underlying motivation of my abusers to find ways to actively hurt me and bring chaos into my life. His goal was to help me reach a place where I wasn't in so much pain that I couldn't function. His goal was to give me the support I needed to find I way to heal those opens wounds I had been left with.

When I could keep that in mind and focus on that therapist as my champion, then I could take a deep breath and verbalize those darkest secrets and horrendous experiences . . . one sentence at a time. I know some will balk at my use of the word "champion," but I'm talking about the therapist as my supporter, defender, advocate - that person willing to walk into battle with me. Some people don't need or see a therapist that way and I hope they'll just leave their opinions aside (sometimes biting the tongue is a virtue). Some of us truly are in battle with our historical demons, and we need a person willing to be that person for us; I think you may be one of them and will understand what I am saying.

One thing my therapist worked with me on was recognizing the early warning signs that I might be headed into that state where I got so easily lost in my head (dissociation). Stopping me right away before I slipped into that state became essential because the longer I was allowed to get lost in my head, the more frightening it was and the more difficult it was to bring me out of it. Yes, that meant at times the therapists had to be firm with me, but the alternative was slipping into that flashback which was far more frightening than my therapist firmly speaking to me in order to regain my focus and keep me present. And if spoken to firmly, it was vital that I remember that the firmness was NOT about the therapist in any way being angry with me or trying to hurt me; on the contrary, he was preventing me from further trauma.

What are your warning signs? I didn't respond to your post last week, but I did read it and this crossed my mind. Was it getting anxious and fearful when you left something in your car and that set you already into a state of beginning dissociation before you even walked into her office last week? Thus, you approached her immediately like you would have the mother instead of as the person who would never have been angry at something so trivial as leaving something in your car? Thus, you heard her as the mother and everything spun out of control in your head from there, you only hearing and experiencing what you knew and expected from the mother? (That would be my guess having been through a similar situation.) It doesn't make you stupid or wrong or dumb or any other negative adjective you habitually apply to yourself. It means your traumatic history has set you up to be reactive and defensive as a protection against further pain. Unfortunately, those defenses we used in childhood don't work well for us as adults; they tend to create problems in communication and interpersonal relationships. It's HARD work to reset those default reactions and takes very active, conscious work (which is itself difficult for those of us prone to dissociate.)

Right now I don't see you able to believe your therapist truly has your best interests in mind. You have trouble separating your therapist from the mother even when you aren't dissociating. You tend to predict her actions will be like your mother before you even walk into session which sets you up to be negatively reactive. I'm not sure how to explain to you how to walk into sessions with a different perspective of your therapist, but that probably is where you are going to need to start.

Be forgiving of yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Place your anger directly where it truly lies -- with the mother and any other individuals in your life who left you in this place. Your therapist didn't do that to you; your therapist is angry with the mother, not you. Your therapist wants more than anything that you weren't in so much pain.

I say it a lot, and I know it sounds trite, but it really isn't. Breathe. Stop and breathe before you react. Fight to battle your default reactions and choose to slow down and think before you react. It is NOT an easy thing to do. It took me years and years to get to where I could do that consciously, deliberately, and pretty consistently. I failed at it over and over and over again. But don't give up. It is worth it when you finally start seeing your inner power to make those choices instead of being constantly at the will of your spiraling emotions.

You've come a long way from the woman who couldn't even speak in session. Now you are speaking, but that is terrifying and is setting off memories and reactions that are difficult. It will get better with time. Sorry, I can't tell you how long. I can't tell you what specifically you'll have to do to get through this period. But it will pass eventually. There is the other side of this nightmare.

You are perhaps the strongest person on this forum. I truly believe that. I wish you could see it.

If I could like this a thousand times, I would.

Granite- print this out, save it. Read it over and over. This is wise stuff here.