[Proof]

I'm trying to decide whether to end couples counseling, largely because I don't personally like the therapist and I think it is hurting our relationship, even though my wife really wants to continue with this specific therapist because she feels supported and heard in a way she normally doesn't.

We've been married for 14 years-together for 18, with kids between the ages of 6 and 13. There has been drama the whole time with family, neighbors, friends, and between us as well. There are good parts, but things are very up and down all the time. We had the same MFT therapist for ~5 years on and off before moving ~5 years ago, and in our new city we've seen ~4 different MFT therapists prior to the current MD. My wife is generally acknowledged to suffer from depression and anxiety, and has a tendency to end up in high-intensity confict with people around her. The first 4 MFT therapist were all people I understood and got along reasonably well with, and was able to take some personal advice from. The 4th recommended my wife to a specialist who diagnosed her with BPD, and she went through 3-4 months of a DBT program with medication before rejecting the diagnosis and quitting the program and all medication. 3-4 months after that she started talking about suicide seriously, and we started seeing an MD therapist that doesn't believe in drugs or BPD, and who only sees couples together.

This was ~5 months ago, and while he convinced her to stop talking about suicide, everything else is the same. In counseling, while he pays lip-service to the idea that everyone's perspective matters, my wife and I both pretty much think that he takes her side, which from my perspective is "do whatever she wants". I've tried that to the limits of my ability, and it didn't result in stability or happiness, though I'll admit I'm not perfect. I've spent many many hours listening to her talk about her upset and pain over the course of the years, and I still try, but I'm finding it harder and harder, particularly when there is a request to disrupt our lives by moving or cutting someone out.

I was trying to keep this simple and it is getting away from me. The bottom line to me is that her happiness and emotional stability seems to depend on the people around her (extended family, neighbors, and friends) changing to meet her expectations. The therapist seems to be supporting the idea that to be "truly married" I should give her what she wants, and accept her desire to exclude anyone who disagrees with her from our lives. My attempts to set boundaries around yelling and time spent discussing her upset and hurt feelings is labeled as controlling and possibly emotionally abusive (e.g. because I criticize 1) the yelling, 2) the high-conflict style, and 3) the focus on hurt feelings. I'm also apparently emotionally abusive for "stonewalling" by ending conversations after 30-90 minutes of discussing her upset. There is no question of physical abuse as I would not and have not ever hit or physically attacked anyone).

I'm torn between the urge to stay far away from a situation where I feel attacked and devalued, and supporting the mother of my children in getting something that she says helps her immensely and keeps her from talking about suicide (e.g. support and agreement about her upset and pain from the therapist that she doesn't get from me, her parents, or mostly anyone else).

Any thoughts would be appreciated, or let me know if there is a better place to post this or something similar.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I have never had marriage/couples counseling. However, what I would expect from it is that the T supports both parties equally. Or supports neither. He shouldn't choose sides. Relationship problems are never a one way street. It's always both people (almost always, of course there's terrible abusers, but I don't think that's the question here). And in that case, the T shouldn't just help one person get their way, he should help both to find a compromise.

For things such as helping your wife with suicidal thoughts, with your boundaries, with other peoples boundaries, with her emotions and so on, she needs to go to individual sessions. There, the T will more or less take her side, where it is appropriate, and help her stand up for herself.

I think that what you are getting there is not marriage counseling, to me it sounds like the therapist is enabling her. I don't know whether she actually has BPD, but as somebody who does, a therapist that would say that it's okay to do everything she wants in a relationship would be one of the worst thing that could happen to me. Mostly because accepting boundaries is very hard with this diagnosis, but at the same time it's very necessary.

Finally, I'm a bit bothered how you say he "convinced her to stop talking about suicide". I'm not quite sure what that means. I can, of course, understand that it would be very bothersome if your spouse goes on about wanting to die every day. But since you only see this therapist together, that means she just doesn't talk about it, right? Which doesn't at all mean she is not thinking about it. I don't think that's the way to go, I really think she should have a individual therapist, plus if you feel the need, you two together should have a marriage counselor that you both feel comfortable with.

[nicoleflynn]

Yelling is verbal abuse; couples counseling is not a good idea when one partner has their (own) issues. That person needs their own therapy, before you should get into couples counseling.

[TishaBuv]

I’ve done individual therapy and couples therapy. I could get into a long explanation about our marriage’s similarities and differences. For the sake of your dilemma, it’s like the marriage is between you, her, and a referee. I can only imagine how much money you’ve spend over the years of this “therapy” that is never-ending.

Since your kids are still young, and you may be scared of divorcing for their sake, you may just be stuck trying to best get along until you can get out of this bad marriage.

As someone who has been diagnosed with Borderline traits, which I do recognize that I have pretty mildly and was brought on by severe stress and frustration ONLY with husband and only over one specific thing, I strongly believe in boundaries. No one should have to give someone else a free pass to bad behavior and put up with abuse.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

I have never had marriage/couples counseling. However, what I would expect from it is that the T supports both parties equally. Or supports neither. He shouldn't choose sides. Relationship problems are never a one way street. It's always both people (almost always, of course there's terrible abusers, but I don't think that's the question here). And in that case, the T shouldn't just help one person get their way, he should help both to find a compromise.

For things such as helping your wife with suicidal thoughts, with your boundaries, with other peoples boundaries, with her emotions and so on, she needs to go to individual sessions. There, the T will more or less take her side, where it is appropriate, and help her stand up for herself.

I think that what you are getting there is not marriage counseling, to me it sounds like the therapist is enabling her. I don't know whether she actually has BPD, but as somebody who does, a therapist that would say that it's okay to do everything she wants in a relationship would be one of the worst thing that could happen to me. Mostly because accepting boundaries is very hard with this diagnosis, but at the same time it's very necessary.

Finally, I'm a bit bothered how you say he "convinced her to stop talking about suicide". I'm not quite sure what that means. I can, of course, understand that it would be very bothersome if your spouse goes on about wanting to die every day. But since you only see this therapist together, that means she just doesn't talk about it, right? Which doesn't at all mean she is not thinking about it. I don't think that's the way to go, I really think she should have a individual therapist, plus if you feel the need, you two together should have a marriage counselor that you both feel comfortable with.

We went to a marriage counselor who had me sign a release for them that I promised I would not take drugs or be suicidal or they would terminate my therapy. I can see the “promised to stop talking about being suicidal” having become the phrase here. Needless to say, that therapist didn’t work out for us.

[Middlemarcher]

I couldn’t agree more with nicoleflynn. I believe that yelling is abusive. I personally set a boundary with my BPD partner that he not yell.

Could your wife continue seeing this T, or another one, on her own? She could get the validation she needs that way. It would also put the focus on her instead of on you, and hopefully lead her to work on her own issues.

I read a book called “The High-Conflict Couple” that was fairly useful. You might want to give it a look. My BPD partner is very open to change and working on the relationship, though, so I don’t know whether it would work the same for you. Wishing you luck.

[maybeblue]

The biggest red flag that I see is that this therapist "doesn't believe in drugs or BPD". Like he believes that BPD doesn't exist? And nobody should take any kind of psychiatric medication? I'm not saying that your wife does or does not have BPD or that she should or should not take medication. But most mental health professionals agree that there is a set of personality/mood traits that point toward BPD. And many people have been helped by psychiatric medications. To completely eliminate either of those as possibilities seems like malpractice to me.

It really does seems like marriage therapy would only work if both people felt like the therapist supported them. I also don't think that you have to accept her yelling at you. I can also understand that it would get very draining to listen to someone "vent" about hurt feelings/depression, especially if that venting never led to any change. All the more reason it seems like she needs individual therapy...someone else to support/listen to her and someone who could give her some ideas about how to improve things within herself.

Have you tried talking to the therapist about your view that he always sides with her? I wonder what his reaction would be.

[Favorite Jeans]

I've been in a similar situation. You can PM me if you want. I now regard the relationship as having been extremely emotionally abusive and regard the 3 different experiences of couples therapy we had as instances of amplified abuse. I am no longer married to that person but they are a (nearly) daily part of my life as we are co-parenting.

The reddest (and most familiar flag) for me in your story is the part about excluding people from your life who disagree with your wife. It sounds like you have way more perspective about it than I did while still in the relationship so that's good. Getting progressively more isolated with a person who had BPD is a desperate and lonely place to be. A therapist who encourages this sounds very unethical.

I hope you have enough support just for you in all this. Good luck.

[growlycat]

Is your wife seeing an individual therapist in addition to joint counseling? I would agree that she should see her own therapist either before or in addition to marriage counseling.

I would be very wary of any therapist that is completely against drug treatments or denies the existence of bpd. If the t was wary of psych drugs that sounds reasonable. Or wary of the stigmatizing effects of a bpd diagnosis then that sounds reasonable too. Any extremes I do not trust.

You have a right to have your own boundaries. If you are not up for endless argument sessions you have a right to cut them short. If your wife wants to cut someone out of her life that only applies to her it does not have to apply to you. If this therapist is saying otherwise, run!