[Elio]

For some time now the feelings, I've had towards and around my T have shifted. I still have a huge desire to spend time with her and I don't want leave my time with her. I desire to see her and have to work hard at not reaching out to her between sessions to inquire about more time with her. At the same time these wants and desires are not painful like the longing I had from probably months 5-16. Have I somehow lost part of my connection/transference; am I becoming more secure in my transference (or the real relationship with T); am I growing through it/healing through it?

From months roughly 18 - now (so month 26) I have struggled with finding the joy, happiness, feeling loved feeling I had during months 9-16 or holding on to it when there is a spark of it.

I have also had lots of chaos in my life during these last 8 months or so, leaving me with many symptoms of depression... so... maybe it is just that.

Has anyone felt this before? Have you found it to be more of a symptom of depression or is it moving/healing/growing through the process?

[SalingerEsme]

I am glad you are finding your bond with your T less painful now, but sorry there is an accompanying lessening of that loved feeling.

It is interesting reading this because I am with you on the timeline, and relatively with you emotionally. I did feel an enlivening and absorbing joy for roughly those same months, and now something more lackluster is creeping in- but in my case because I have lost some romanticizing of my T or of therapy itself. I still though feel very attached to him, and want the time and have to stop myself from reaching out for more time. Different from you, I don't think it is at all a secure attachment. I miss the spark or maybe it is the discovery process that is over and now it is all real work. .

[Elio]

I can't say it is secure attachment. I'm wondering if it is part of getting there though. Maybe you are right that it is just that the discovery process is over.

Not sure about the romanticizing my T or the process - maybe. I guess that's why I posted, just get some ideas what it might be/could be or what others are experiencing. When I first started here at PC, I noticed that there was lots of turmoil between T/client on the board for people that are at that 18-36 month mark. I likened it to the terrible 2's. Maybe it's more like what you said, the discovery part is over and now the "real" work begins -- or the infatuation is over and the "real" work begins? Would kind of play into the 6ish yr mark issues I've seen too, in terms of relationship dynamics.

[LonesomeTonight]

Based on my own experience...it can seem to lessen for a period of time, and you think, "OK, transference has faded, maybe I've processed it." And then something happens, whether with T or in the outside world, and it's like "BAM!" all the feelings are there again. That's happened a few times with MC. I mean, through the process it ebbed and flowed, but then more recently, a few times, I've thought it was gone entirely. Then went to that concert with some songs I associated with him and ended up sobbing and e-mailing him. Had falling out not long after that, anger, then sadness, then...it was like there was just nothing for a month or two. Just no feelings at all toward him. Then T went on vacation, and it was like all the emotions about MC came flooding back... (Ended up e-mailing him, got a validating, reassuring response. We see him Monday for the first time in a month or so.)

So just be prepared for them to suddenly, maybe seemingly randomly come back. That's not to say they'll come back and stay back--might just be a fleeting thing.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Elio

I can't say it is secure attachment. I'm wondering if it is part of getting there though. Maybe you are right that it is just that the discovery process is over.

Not sure about the romanticizing my T or the process - maybe. I guess that's why I posted, just get some ideas what it might be/could be or what others are experiencing. When I first started here at PC, I noticed that there was lots of turmoil between T/client on the board for people that are at that 18-36 month mark. I likened it to the terrible 2's. Maybe it's more like what you said, the discovery part is over and now the "real" work begins -- or the infatuation is over and the "real" work begins? Would kind of play into the 6ish yr mark issues I've seen too, in terms of relationship dynamics.

Just wanted to say with the 6-year mark...that's when I left ex-T. And it seemed like a few others on the board left theirs around then, too.

Also, I'm at the 5-month mark with my current T and am noticing some turmoil...it's like I'm hitting the "I'm kinda starting to trust you" phase, and anything he does to make me doubt that is leading me to have some sort of "wait, maybe I can't trust you after all" thing, where we're having all these conversations about the relationship (and he says I think about it more than any of his other clients). Maybe this is like a testing phase for me? I think it probably happened later with ex-T and also MC, but since I've been through the stuff with them, it's like I'm trying to cut to the chase more, figure out "are you really in this with me? can you handle this?" now rather than later.

[maybeblue]

I don't know that I have exactly experienced a lot of transference with my therapists...attachment for sure, but I think I am attached to them and what they do for me rather than because I see them as parent figures. I actually have two at the moment. One I have talked to for about 5-6 years. I've barely had any conflict with her at all. She fits with my personality. She lets me lead the sessions, but is an active participant. I feel secure with her. I don't worry that she is going to dump me. I expect she likes me as well as she likes any of her clients and that is enough for me. I find talking to her helpful and look forward to it, but I don't have a huge longing when we aren't talking.

The other therapist I have only been seeing for a couple of months. I see him specifically for an eating disorder. I feel much less secure with him. I worry more about him getting angry with me and I am much more likely to get angry with him. I don't remember having that with my long time therapist ever. The ED therapist is not an angry person. He's calm and quiet and quite nice. So maybe because the relationship is new I'm less secure with him. Or very possibly because he is male, which would in fact make it transference. I think about him more between sessions, but that might be because I'm focusing really hard on the eating disorder thing.

[feralkittymom]

I know I've read in the literature about a shift fairly early on--within the first 2 years--that is somewhat predictable: it's when the unconscious belief in the T having the power to heal, like magic, whatever the problem is--or provide whatever it is the client needs--meets the reality of that not being possible. It's usually considered reflective of child development, and because it's unconscious, is part of transference. The client can experience it in various combinations of disillusionment, disappointment, depression, anger and futility. It's a statistically common point at which clients leave or change Ts.

Transference isn't usually talked about in terms of secure or insecure--that's attachment. I always think of attachment as the relationship that can contain transference (when it exists.) That's why if the attachment is insecure, transference can be experienced as volatile. Within a secure attachment, transference can be experienced as more stable (assuming the T is competent.)

This seems to be why Ts who work in psychoanalytical/psychodynamic modalities think of client issues broadly as trauma/unmet needs that occur within the first few years of life ( @ birth--3 yrs) as qualitatively different from those that occur later in childhood (@ 4-6 yrs), or those that occur @ 7-12 yrs, or during adolescence.

A parental transference that stems from injury at 18 months of age is going to present differently than the same transference originating from injury at 8 yrs of age, and require a different response. When traumas extend throughout multiple stages, the transference changes as it develops.

I'm sure one of the reasons, besides my T's skill, that my parental transference was fairly stable and attachment secure is that the first few years of my life appeared to have been pretty stable.

[rainbow8]

I can identify with your feelings, Elio. I've been seeing my for 8 years now. I can't believe it's been so long! There have been a few shifts regarding my transference and longing for my T. For a few years she was up on that pedastol, until she got her divorce. My child parts always wanted to climb into her lap. We talked about that but it never happened, of course.

For a lot of the years I saw T as a romantic figure also. I was attracted to her. I felt like I was in love with her.

Gradually I saw my T as a regular person, with flaws. I saw her more as a friend than mother.

Now it's shifting towards her just being my T. I recorded part of last week's session because I wanted to remember what she told me about secure attachment. In the past, I would have been obsessed with listening to my recording. But I'm not. I don't like her voice so much anymore. She sounds ordinary. I don't get excited thinking about my sessions like I used to. It's kind of disappointing!

So, I think it's a little bit of depression and a lot of growth. At least in my case. T feels comfortable, like a worn slipper. I still like to be with her but it feels different. More normal.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I've realized this week that my depression triggers my BPD. So when I'm not depressed, I'm very secure with my T. When I am depressed, I doubt, her, challenge her, cling to her, try to push her away. T says it partially due to feeling worthless when depressed.

So I think I have become securely attached to my T. It's the depression that makes it seem unsecure.

Originally Posted by Elio

For some time now the feelings, I've had towards and around my T have shifted. I still have a huge desire to spend time with her and I don't want leave my time with her. I desire to see her and have to work hard at not reaching out to her between sessions to inquire about more time with her. At the same time these wants and desires are not painful like the longing I had from probably months 5-16. Have I somehow lost part of my connection/transference; am I becoming more secure in my transference (or the real relationship with T); am I growing through it/healing through it?

From months roughly 18 - now (so month 26) I have struggled with finding the joy, happiness, feeling loved feeling I had during months 9-16 or holding on to it when there is a spark of it.

I have also had lots of chaos in my life during these last 8 months or so, leaving me with many symptoms of depression... so... maybe it is just that.

Has anyone felt this before? Have you found it to be more of a symptom of depression or is it moving/healing/growing through the process?

Not sure it's the same. But I remember feeling like the match I use to strike to get that fluffy feeling of T wasn't working.

When I mentioned it to T she said "I think it's because you can take this/me more for granted now. You don't have to think about it all the time because you know it's there. You've internalised me more now"
At first that irritated me because I wanted that first flush of fluffiness I had in the beginning. But after a while it did begin to feel she was right and it was another stage. Not bad, just different. Adjusting to different for me is always another thing I have to grief first. Thsts what throws me.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I know I've read in the literature about a shift fairly early on--within the first 2 years--that is somewhat predictable: it's when the unconscious belief in the T having the power to heal, like magic, whatever the problem is--or provide whatever it is the client needs--meets the reality of that not being possible. It's usually considered reflective of child development, and because it's unconscious, is part of transference. The client can experience it in various combinations of disillusionment, disappointment, depression, anger and futility. It's a statistically common point at which clients leave or change Ts.
.

Thank you for writing this. I would love to read anything and everything about this. It seems right on for the problem I am having. It is like I had some magical thinking about either T or therapy itself, that abruptly came to a reality check over the holidays, and I am having the same feeling as when you know you're going to break up with someone, but haven't done it yet.

[SalingerEsme]

Elio, thank you for starting this thread. Every reply means so much to me. I am somewhat brokenhearted over psychotherapy right now. I threw all my faith and resources into it, and it isn't like it has let me down or turned out to be an illusion. It is just becoming realistic and a tad routine. I read 100 therapy textbooks, I listened to therapy podcasts, I faithfully attend 2 sessions every week and spilled my longhand secrets on request. I am still just me.

[feralkittymom]

SalingerEsme, there's also a time gap between this realization and having internalized the constancy and positivity necessary to sustain you through the work. If all else is as it should be, that will follow in time. Again, the pattern is similar to stages of child development, especially before and through rapprochement. The child has experienced the first attempt at separation/independence and experienced pain/failure/disillusionment, but hasn't yet experienced rapprochement--the period when re-bonding brings back the security and hopefulness lost.

Of course, the first time around as a toddler, we didn't have the cognitive capacity and don't have the memory of that time to draw upon, so in therapy it feels like a new experience--but the depth seems bigger than the present experience because it's drawing on those unconscious feelings.

It's all theoretical, but what most closely mirrored my own experience is the writing I've found coming from an object relations perspective. The primary folks can be a bit impenetrable, but the second generation of researchers seems more straightforward in their explanations--or maybe it's just the natural evolution of the ideas.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

SalingerEsme, there's also a time gap between this realization and having internalized the constancy and positivity necessary to sustain you through the work. If all else is as it should be, that will follow in time. Again, the pattern is similar to stages of child development, especially before and through rapprochement. The child has experienced the first attempt at separation/independence and experienced pain/failure/disillusionment, but hasn't yet experienced rapprochement--the period when re-bonding brings back the security and hopefulness lost.

Of course, the first time around as a toddler, we didn't have the cognitive capacity and don't have the memory of that time to draw upon, so in therapy it feels like a new experience--but the depth seems bigger than the present experience because it's drawing on those unconscious feelings.

It's all theoretical, but what most closely mirrored my own experience is the writing I've found coming from an object relations perspective. The primary folks can be a bit impenetrable, but the second generation of researchers seems more straightforward in their explanations--or maybe it's just the natural evolution of the ideas.

What if regression happens? Not regression to childhood but regression to old behaviors - ED, social isolation, self judging, .. and such? I felt like I had been opening up and being more accepting of everything. Now, I don't even know what it is I'm feeling. I know I am not feeling the joy, warmth, love/loved, self acceptance that I was feeling.

I'm back to believing those parts are not allowed, I should not have wants or ask for those things I want, I should not exist, just shouldn't be here.

What is different is passive death wishes seem to be missing or... hard to visualize through the event like before. Violent thoughts/dreams are also lower.

[feralkittymom]

I think moments of regression are very common. It's not a linear process; but each revisiting of a stage seems a bit less intense. But the behaviors you mention sound more like defenses than regression. Defenses would function as coping/self protection mechanisms. When you talk of "parts" I don't know if you're just using IFS terms or speaking of DID--that would be a different issue. And certainly, if the injury occurs before rapprochement, that makes the circumstance more difficult because you don't have the earlier experience that was worked through to unconsciously draw upon. From an object relations perspective, that would be a situation likely to result in BP or bipolar or DI disorders.

[growlycat]

Thanks for this topic. Going through a weird separation anxiety thing when I was actually not doing badly a few months ago. I used to leave therapy feeling pretty good and missing him but not in an overly painful or obsessive way. Right now it hurts even though I am getting a lot of support. More does not feel like enough. Wondering myself what stage am I in? What shifted? Will it get better?

[feralkittymom]

Growly, I used to feel more like the support was not wavering, but just not enough to meet the pain before new memories came up. I figured my unconscious knew before I did.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I think moments of regression are very common. It's not a linear process; but each revisiting of a stage seems a bit less intense. But the behaviors you mention sound more like defenses than regression. Defenses would function as coping/self protection mechanisms. When you talk of "parts" I don't know if you're just using IFS terms or speaking of DID--that would be a different issue. And certainly, if the injury occurs before rapprochement, that makes the circumstance more difficult because you don't have the earlier experience that was worked through to unconsciously draw upon. From an object relations perspective, that would be a situation likely to result in BP or bipolar or DI disorders.

To be honest, I'm not sure anymore about IFS or DID. I don't have some classic symptoms of DID - no lost time and I am aware of what I do when I am feeling differently (I feel like I am explaining this very poorly). On the other hand, it is like switching rather than calling upon different strengths. My behaviors/mannerism, interests, wants/needs, and even some level of morals change. They seem to be very self contained entities (or used to).

Through this process, there have been several periods where I've completely lost myself. I'm in one of these periods right now where my name doesn't feel like it's me, like it is the wrong label. When asked about this, all I have is "I'm just me". There have been moments when I want to tell people not to call me Elio or they do and I think "that's not me" and other moments of "I guess I'm Elio". I've been like this now for a couple of weeks. I don't remember having periods like this before this type of therapy and each time I come out things seem slightly different. I've mostly accepted that this is how I feel as things are re-configuring in my head.

So I don't know. Everything is just weird in my head and it doesn't make sense. I feel something, I can't put words to it.

After reading some about rapprochement, I don't think I had rapprochement, for one reason or another, not at all or not when/how it needed to happen.

[AnnaBegins]

Originally Posted by Elio

What if regression happens? Not regression to childhood but regression to old behaviors - ED, social isolation, self judging, .. and such? I felt like I had been opening up and being more accepting of everything. Now, I don't even know what it is I'm feeling. I know I am not feeling the joy, warmth, love/loved, self acceptance that I was feeling.

I'm back to believing those parts are not allowed, I should not have wants or ask for those things I want, I should not exist, just shouldn't be here.

^ This. So very this!

[SalingerEsme]

I cheated on my T today with a good friend's T. I wrote that kind of dramatically, but I have the remorse combined with the good feeling of defiance. The discovery process and the magic of learning about psychotherapy and the sense of endless possibility is definitely over. Like you Elio in a way, I am left now back with my history of dreadful trauma hidden behind a lifetime of high achieving - now the difference is one other person knows about it, but I am still me, still struggling to ever sleep. My T said my relationship with him would be a corrective one, he would "stay the course" with me , "be right with me" these pretty promises that sound like love but are therapy. I was enchanted but now I find things are largely the same, except I am very attached to T and he is expensive in more ways than financially. He has helped me with insights and fluency about what really happens inside a traumatized child etc, but he has hurt me too by simultaneously promising this kind of special communion and periodically dropping the wizard of oz curtain to reveal it isn't a real feeling for him, but his job that he prefers to leave at the office. Psychotherapy itself is a double bind for the patient, and perhaps for the T too who maybe does love/care within the fifty minutes?

[Elio]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

Psychotherapy itself is a double bind for the patient, and perhaps for the T too who maybe does love/care within the fifty minutes?

Yes, I believe it is a double bind for the T's too. I strongly believe my T cares about me beyond the 50 min window. I believe she is limited by the frame/the rules of psychotherapy.

Early on I did do something that most don't seem to do, I had her tell me (made/demanded??) that she wouldn't always be there. That she couldn't promise that. At the time she took it in terms of death. As time has passed, she realized that I did mean that she isn't always available to me. I think it is why the statement "this is the life I want", which she has now changed to "the life I want is here" has meant more to me than, "I will be there for you...". I know that want can change. I guess the fact that she is starting a 4 yr training program not to far from her office has given me some security that this life she wants here will be wanted for next 4 yrs.