Hi PC,

I've heard a lot of good and also bad stories about EMDR, here and elsewhere. I've wanted to do EMDR with my therapist as she's trained in it, but we primarily use imagery rescripting for trauma processing.

Last session, I asked her why she has never offered to do EMDR with me as we've great rapport, I trust her, I'm stable etc.

Paraphrasing what she said:

1. In her opinion, it's "too passive" for me, because it will mostly be me "noticing" and her moving her fingers. She acknowledged that's her opinion and that I'm free to disagree. She thinks my mind is "already very active".
   
2. Generating an image (as evidenced by difficulty in our imagery rescripting) is already hard for me. I have lots of memory gaps, few memories and most of my memories are hazy with few clear ones. I don't understand why we can't target those clear memories.
   
3. She feels EMDR is "better for single-incident traumas than complex trauma". I disagreed, saying there's clinical research as well as a lot of personal accounts (here on PC and on blogs and social media!) where people with complex trauma report success with "EMDR with required modifications". She says in her view, the research goes both ways: success and harm. I suspect maybe she's doubting her skill and her experience as she's a pretty "young in clinical experience" therapist: Doctorate before 30 and "only" 3 years experience after her doctorate practicums.
   
4. Could be too destablising for me to maintain my current level of functioning. She thinks EMDR for me would require residential treatment and outpatient would be too destabalising. We don't have PHP or IOP or residential treatment facilities here.

I did ask if it's because my traumas are "not bad enough" for EMDR, she said it's not about "the trauma has to be X bad to qualify for EMDR" and I know people have used EMDR for painful memories which aren't necessarily the overwhelming, "obviously traumatic" ones.

Thoughts? I don't have a dissociative disorder diagnosis that I know of (and I know there are members here with dissociative disorders whose therapists are willing to do EMDR)...I don't even have a PTSD diagnosis...

[here today]

Originally Posted by QuietMind

Hi PC,

I've heard a lot of good and also bad stories about EMDR, here and elsewhere. I've wanted to do EMDR with my therapist as she's trained in it, but we primarily use imagery rescripting for trauma processing.

Last session, I asked her why she has never offered to do EMDR with me as we've great rapport, I trust her, I'm stable etc.

Paraphrasing what she said:

1. In her opinion, it's "too passive" for me, because it will mostly be me "noticing" and her moving her fingers. She acknowledged that's her opinion and that I'm free to disagree. She thinks my mind is "already very active".
2. Generating an image (as evidenced by difficulty in our imagery rescripting) is already hard for me. I have lots of memory gaps, few memories and most of my memories are hazy with few clear ones. I don't understand why we can't target those clear memories.
3. She feels EMDR is "better for single-incident traumas than complex trauma". I disagreed, saying there's clinical research as well as a lot of personal accounts (here on PC and on blogs and social media!) where people with complex trauma report success with "EMDR with required modifications". She says in her view, the research goes both ways: success and harm. I suspect maybe she's doubting her skill and her experience as she's a pretty "young in clinical experience" therapist: Doctorate before 30 and "only" 3 years experience after her doctorate practicums.
4. Could be too destablising for me to maintain my current level of functioning. She thinks EMDR for me would require residential treatment and outpatient would be too destabalising. We don't have PHP or IOP or residential treatment facilities here.

I did ask if it's because my traumas are "not bad enough" for EMDR, she said it's not about "the trauma has to be X bad to qualify for EMDR" and I know people have used EMDR for painful memories which aren't necessarily the overwhelming, "obviously traumatic" ones.

Thoughts? I don't have a dissociative disorder diagnosis that I know of (and I know there are members here with dissociative disorders whose therapists are willing to do EMDR)...I don't even have a PTSD diagnosis...

I respect her caution, because, in my experience, maintaining a good level of functioning is important. Destabilizing, falling apart, "decompensating" sucks. And is dysfunctional. And sucks. No matter how much one wants to "get to the bottom" of things. That's what the result of my 55 years of therapy on and off has to say about it.

Doesn't sound to me like it's necessarily a matter that her skills and experience are questionable -- based on ideas that I thought would "work" for me and didn't, I hold some doubt about the efficacy of EMDR in all cases and, again, would respect her caution about the method, given you and your situation. Sounds like she's well-trained and up-to-speed in the research. Good that she is open to discussion and your disagreement about it, though.

If it were me, and I wanted to try it, then I would try to find another T who does not have those reservations. Someone who feels more confident, whether it's their greater level of experience with the method or whatever. But. . .based on my experience, I never expected to fall apart (didn't do EMDR, just tried to get in touch with trauma) and for it to be so bad and so long. . .it might be worthwhile to look at the downside and risk, too, as well as the reported benefits.

[unaluna]

QM, I think the environment we shared, and frankly i would say yours was worse because you are still in "the old country"?, definitely qualifies as c-PTSD - which is chronic ptsd. The unrelenting diminishing based on gender for one thing, the looksism, the general constant undermining of capabilities - this is just the BACKGROUND.

My wish for you would simply be to see you change your "i can'ts" to "i cans" - like live independently. EMDR would be exploring your i cants - put your energy into finding a roommate - even if you never move in with them, you would learn and build something that would serve you for the future. Find an apartment complex for women - i cant believe that NONE exists. We are not as unique as we think we are.

[susannahsays]

C did some EMDR, and it felt a bit silly. I particularly agree with #3, I think. C just has too many incidents to reasonably cover with EMDR. I'm curious why you want to do EMDR? Is what you're doing not working?

[zoiecat]

EMDR can definitely help with C-PTSD but you have to have a qualified T. It must be done carefully, with a highly trained and skilled T. You work on one of your worst memories to start with. The "process" of EMDR will bring up many more memories for you, even things you never remembered before. It is more than just noticing and watching fingers go back and forth. Personally I find it easier with the hand buzzers than eye movements but I have heard it all works the same. The back and forth movements work similar to a dream in ways that it helps your brain file away the visual, physical, and emotional memories and feelings in a way that your brain can process them and they no longer cause pain. For me, it is a slow process because I tend to dissociate a lot (another issue that requires special T training) but I have seen some improvements.

I don't believe EMDR would not help you, but it is quite possible that your T does not have the skills to use it on you. If that is the case, they are probably right and I wouldn't want to start it with them. My T told me about a couple of cases he had early on in his practice that failed because he did not have the proper knowledge to treat the issue at the time. He continuously goes to consultation for EMDR issues and has even learned quite a bit with me. Not that he hasn't helped me, just that it has been very slow going due to my DID issues.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[MoxieDoxie]

I have C-ptsd and I used to dissociate all the time in session. EMDR has been a game changer for me. I am now at my best functioning adult that I have ever thought I could be.

[satsuma]

My T and I have just started incorporating some EMDR into my therapy. T did say that it is similar to the imagery re-scripting which is part of schema therapy. I don't actually experience it as being similar at all, but I suppose T means that it is targeting the same part of the mind (he has explained before about targeting the amygdala).
I think though QM that if I was in your position and my T wasn't confident that EMDR would be a good use, then I probably wouldn't push too much to go ahead. I'm not at all thinking about who is right or wrong - and maybe your T is mistaken and it actually could be very helpful to you - but just that I feel it is less likely to be a good and helpful experience if the T is not feeling confident and committed.
I seem to remember there have been other posters who have one at for EMDR and one for other therapy. I don't know if that's something you would want to try, QM?

[Out There]

I've found EMDR to be a game changer for CPTSD. We can have so many " incidents " but they have " themes " that repeat. I'd just finished my second round of EMDR but then something came up that we'd notdone too much work on so I'm going back for that. Maybe your T isn't that confidant she can use it , it's a very specialised thing to do. Could you talk to another practioner if you feel it might benefit you ?

[Amyjay]

I have DID and C-PTSD and my T uses some EMDR techniques with me. I find them really helpful, it certainly speeds up processing for me.
I have read several times however that one of the "prerequisites" of successful EMDR is that the client needs to be able to visualize. I don't know why, I didn't catch that bit, but have read several times that if a client can't visualize EMDR isn't a viable option.

Originally Posted by unaluna

QM, I think the environment we shared, and frankly i would say yours was worse because you are still in "the old country"?, definitely qualifies as c-PTSD - which is chronic ptsd. The unrelenting diminishing based on gender for one thing, the looksism, the general constant undermining of capabilities - this is just the BACKGROUND.

My wish for you would simply be to see you change your "i can'ts" to "i cans" - like live independently. EMDR would be exploring your i cants - put your energy into finding a roommate - even if you never move in with them, you would learn and build something that would serve you for the future. Find an apartment complex for women - i cant believe that NONE exists. We are not as unique as we think we are.

I hear you una, and I appreciate your words and your good heart. On PC I tend to rant when I feel hopeless, and that's when all the "I can't, I'm stuck, I can't" come out. I'm a lot more optimistic in general after quite some therapy. I looked at room / apartment listings recently, typed out a "here's what to do if I'm kicked out" plan.

You're right: there ARE options which weren't open for me at first, but became open after I changed some BIG stuff (family's mad about those changes but too bad for them).

To everyone else, I appreciate all the replies! I'm thinking carefully about why do I want EMDR so much: I know it isn't a quick fix and I'm really intrigued by the success stories I've heard, and am also wary because I've heard stories of severe destabilization.

Part of my wanting is to be more intentional with "trauma processing" as we do imagery rescripting pretty rarely. I think the rarity is maybe because visualising itself is so hard for me already. :/ I can't even visualise my "child part" consistently or clearly. They shift faces, genders, feel "not me".

So I can see where T is coming from yet I'm quite "sick and tired of having reminders of trauma disturb me", if I make sense? I really want to start changing the beliefs related to trauma. I want to "hurry up and get done" with therapy. I know my past isn't the only thing that defines me and I try to be as present-focused and future-orientated as I can, so I have this huge impatience of "let's do EMDR / PET / imagery rescripting so we can heal the traumas. Let's do it now now now!"

ETA:

I'm curious why you want to do EMDR? Is what you're doing not working?

I don't know if imagery rescripting is working, yes. I used to not believe in it but have accepted T's explanations and my own research on "why and here's how it works" but I don't know if it's working for me.

I have read several times however that one of the "prerequisites" of successful EMDR is that the client needs to be able to visualize. I don't know why, I didn't catch that bit, but have read several times that if a client can't visualize EMDR isn't a viable option.

Hmm, I can visualize with difficulty, but yeah, most of my memories are hazy, silent movie clips.

My T and I have just started incorporating some EMDR into my therapy. T did say that it is similar to the imagery re-scripting which is part of schema therapy. I don't actually experience it as being similar at all, but I suppose T means that it is targeting the same part of the mind (he has explained before about targeting the amygdala).

I think though QM that if I was in your position and my T wasn't confident that EMDR would be a good use, then I probably wouldn't push too much to go ahead. I'm not at all thinking about who is right or wrong - and maybe your T is mistaken and it actually could be very helpful to you - but just that I feel it is less likely to be a good and helpful experience if the T is not feeling confident and committed.

I seem to remember there have been other posters who have one at for EMDR and one for other therapy. I don't know if that's something you would want to try, QM?

Maybe your T isn't that confidant she can use it , it's a very specialised thing to do. Could you talk to another practioner if you feel it might benefit you ?

I definitely want to discuss more with her. While I can talk with another practitioner (there are other EMDR Ts, after all), I have to trust the T a great deal to feel safe being vulnerable with them.

I respect her caution, because, in my experience, maintaining a good level of functioning is important. Destabilizing, falling apart, "decompensating" sucks. And is dysfunctional. And sucks. No matter how much one wants to "get to the bottom" of things. That's what the result of my 55 years of therapy on and off has to say about it.

I DO tend to be foolhardy sometimes. I have this belief that I will not fall apart, which is irrational, I know. I have this carelessness about my wellbeing because "I just won't fall apart", which I recognise aa reckless.

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

I have C-ptsd and I used to dissociate all the time in session. EMDR has been a game changer for me. I am now at my best functioning adult that I have ever thought I could be.

I want this. I'm at my best functioning adult self now (more than what I thought I could be in the past), but I still have a limited life with impairments due to anxiety, so I have a long way more to go.

[Fuzzybear]

((((((( QuietMind )))))))