[DysthymicJedi]

Ever heard THAT from your psychologist?

I've been in therapy for a few months now, and between that, getting a better handle on various methods of self care, supplements I'm taking, and some deep inner work, I'm feeling a lot better. I haven't felt any lingering depression (which is saying something, as I've been chronically depressed since elementary school school, so nearly 30 years), and even my anxiety is far more manageable, even nonexistent at times when I would normally have been paralyzed from it.

I was telling this to my therapist this week, who then brought up that I have never struck her as particularly depressed...that I'm always fairly upbeat and have a smile on my face. I reminded her of our first session when I pointed out that I laugh when I'm nervous (sortof a self-abasement/low self-esteem thing, I guess), and that while I'm comfortable at her appointments, the discussions might still bring some of that up, or just a feeling of awkwardness, like, "I'm so stupid, why am I struggling with this? It's such a ridiculous thing to be upset about, hahaha!"

It was about that point we ran out of time, so we didn't discuss it much further, but I'm still pretty miffed about it. My friends actually called me Eeyore in college because I was just ALWAYS in at least a semi-sad mood. I sought out a support group in elementary school that I thought would help me until it turned out to be exclusively for kids of divorced parents and they turned me away. An adult at the school called me "Smiley" because I DIDN'T smile much. Seriously...lifelong issue here.

We've had, I don't know, 8 visits? I'm not sure whether she's picking up on something else entirely, trying to diagnose me with something different so I can get more free EAP visits and keep coming because money's tight (not that I was looking at quitting, anyway), or...what. The most I can figure is that for an hour every couple of weeks, I'm out of the house (I work from home), away from my young children, and talking face-to-face with another adult who at least pretends to care what's going on in my life, and I can just relax and feel free and be myself. *L* Beyond that, my social life=Facebook, and even that I've been trying to distance myself from because it's such a time suck, leaving mostly Messenger where I talk to my ONE real BFF who isn't even in the same state, so we never get to hang out.

I'm stumped. I mean, I didn't even get around to seeing her until I was already coming OUT of the Major Depression slump I had earlier this year, but I know I still had symptoms at that point, because I literally fell apart in her waiting room, sitting there all alone wondering if I'd gone to the wrong place or hadn't been put down in her appt book or what, because it was like 20 minutes past my appt time and she still hadn't come out for me, and there was no receptionist to verify anything with. Turned out, she just runs chronically behind.

I like her a lot...I'm comfortable and she listens and actually engages with me, unlike another therapist I had in the past, but I'm not sure if the fact that I "don't seem depressed" reflects an inability to detect nuanced moods in her patients or if it is simply that I'm somehow inadvertently sending mixed signals or something.

Has anyone else ever encountered this? I'm not sure whether it's a huge red flag, or just a hiccup, or a clue to a deeper part of my issues.

[Fuzzybear]

Yeah pretty much .. “normal” people suck ....

[nicoleflynn]

That is an odd,weird statement for a therapist to say.....A well-trained therapist would as kyou good questions about what your depression feels like, etc.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by DysthymicJedi

Ever heard THAT from your psychologist?

I've been in therapy for a few months now, and between that, getting a better handle on various methods of self care, supplements I'm taking, and some deep inner work, I'm feeling a lot better. I haven't felt any lingering depression (which is saying something, as I've been chronically depressed since elementary school school, so nearly 30 years), and even my anxiety is far more manageable, even nonexistent at times when I would normally have been paralyzed from it.

I was telling this to my therapist this week, who then brought up that I have never struck her as particularly depressed...that I'm always fairly upbeat and have a smile on my face. I reminded her of our first session when I pointed out that I laugh when I'm nervous (sortof a self-abasement/low self-esteem thing, I guess), and that while I'm comfortable at her appointments, the discussions might still bring some of that up, or just a feeling of awkwardness, like, "I'm so stupid, why am I struggling with this? It's such a ridiculous thing to be upset about, hahaha!"

It was about that point we ran out of time, so we didn't discuss it much further, but I'm still pretty miffed about it. My friends actually called me Eeyore in college because I was just ALWAYS in at least a semi-sad mood. I sought out a support group in elementary school that I thought would help me until it turned out to be exclusively for kids of divorced parents and they turned me away. An adult at the school called me "Smiley" because I DIDN'T smile much. Seriously...lifelong issue here.

We've had, I don't know, 8 visits? I'm not sure whether she's picking up on something else entirely, trying to diagnose me with something different so I can get more free EAP visits and keep coming because money's tight (not that I was looking at quitting, anyway), or...what. The most I can figure is that for an hour every couple of weeks, I'm out of the house (I work from home), away from my young children, and talking face-to-face with another adult who at least pretends to care what's going on in my life, and I can just relax and feel free and be myself. *L* Beyond that, my social life=Facebook, and even that I've been trying to distance myself from because it's such a time suck, leaving mostly Messenger where I talk to my ONE real BFF who isn't even in the same state, so we never get to hang out.

I'm stumped. I mean, I didn't even get around to seeing her until I was already coming OUT of the Major Depression slump I had earlier this year, but I know I still had symptoms at that point, because I literally fell apart in her waiting room, sitting there all alone wondering if I'd gone to the wrong place or hadn't been put down in her appt book or what, because it was like 20 minutes past my appt time and she still hadn't come out for me, and there was no receptionist to verify anything with. Turned out, she just runs chronically behind.

I like her a lot...I'm comfortable and she listens and actually engages with me, unlike another therapist I had in the past, but I'm not sure if the fact that I "don't seem depressed" reflects an inability to detect nuanced moods in her patients or if it is simply that I'm somehow inadvertently sending mixed signals or something.

Has anyone else ever encountered this? I'm not sure whether it's a huge red flag, or just a hiccup, or a clue to a deeper part of my issues.

I have not encountered this. I am picking up some clues as to her cluelessness, however. That comment is fairly minimizing, on one hand, as it kind of brushes off a serious concern of yours. (chronic, ongoing low mood). On the other hand, she may have been saying it in order to reinforce your current level of functioning ...i.e. you are not curled up in a ball. But that doesn't mean you don't have a valid, ongoing concern. I might, in a similar situation, feel invalidated and dismissed.

However, I am also really put off that she would let you sit for such a long time in her waiting room without coming out to let you know things were running late or acknowledging that. Did you get a huge apology for that? 20 minutes? Seriously not cool.

I think the fact that you do connect with her in some positive way is vital here, though. Having adult conversations about YOUR concerns is a key part of therapy and for me, right now in my life, therapy has been and continues to be a source of support from someone I trust and mostly like. Given the low level of intimacy that I currently have (lost two key friends to moving and single and far from family), sometimes that is what therapy is about, and you don't need to be seriously depressed to need or benefit from therapy.

[nottrustin]

Sometimes I don't think T or psych NP have understood how depressed I am. One because I always wear a happy face mask on my everyday life. When I am in an appointment with them I tried to take the mask off but I never really can. Although I suspect right now they have some idea.

[SlumberKitty]

I've never heard that personally and it sounds very invalidating. The only thing I can think is maybe it was meant to be encouraging? But without hearing the tone it would be hard to say. I can't figure out why T's say what they say sometimes because I wonder what the thoughts are behind it. I definitely think it might be a good topic to bring up next time. Just say something like, hey when you said this, I felt this. And see what happens. Even good T's say moronic things sometimes. But talking about it would give you more of a sense of if your T is chronically clueless. Even if you are very high functioning it doesn't mean that you can't still be very depressed. Today I really wanted to call in to work and just stay in bed all day in a little cocoon of blankets but instead I did the grown up thing and went to work like I do every single time I feel that way (like almost every day), so yeah that's functioning, but it's also really depressed. Maybe like me you can be pretty good at putting on a mask, but I'm not sure because you said other people have called you smiley (that's happened to me before) and Eeyore (my T just called me that last night) so I totally understand where you are coming from with that. Anyway, that's an invalidating thing to say and I would be a little miffed about it. And a little bit like, what the heck?!

[InnerPeace111]

If it were me, I’d ask her to describe her educational training and professional background a bit more. See what experiences she’s had in treating different types of depression. Maybe that will provide some clues into why she said what she did? These are questions I think any therapist worth their salt would be happy and willing to answer for a client.

I've heard that several times. I present well so I've had a psychiatrist and a family physician literally laugh and tell me they'd skip the standard depression assessment. Even when I disclose I've suicidal thoughts (chronic passive sui ideation), I look "too cheerful". I've long suspected I've had dysthymia since I was really young because getting on suitable meds was experiencing sunlight after years of overcast sky and rain.

"You don't seem depressed" doesn't necessarily translate as "I don't think you are depressed". Your therapist could have meant that you manage your depression well, that you hide your feelings, that you can trust her and be vulnerable with instead of hiding behind a capable mask, the list goes on ... Many of these slippery therapy conversations rely on tone and context to convey the full meaning. The problem is that tone and context is often lost when you leave the room, retell conversations to others or are not able to accept what is being said at the time.

[DysthymicJedi]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It made a good sounding board. Truth is, even within the conversation, I wasn't sure what she was digging at...whether complimenting that I manage it well, insinuating I wear a mask, or suggesting I might not be depressed at all and should just quit coming around...or, like I said, searching for a new DX so I could get more EAP visits. I'm honestly not sure. Near as I can recall, it only came up because I'd mentioned my son wanted a stuffed Eeyore for his birthday because his big sister has one and I have several, and this reminded her that I'd put that name to my dysthymia, so then out of the blue, she said, "You know, I don't see Eeyore. I never really have. You're always quite cheerful and smiling."

To which I laughed...and then realized I couldn't make myself STOP laughing and/or smiling stupidly because I was caught SO off guard and had NO idea what to make of it.

I can't even say I understand it myself. I know that I *can* be quite ebullient and chatty, which doesn't quite mesh with the extreme introvert I see myself as, but the smaller and more familiar the group--and the particular people IN that group--determine how I interact. If my kids are with me, I'm more likely to be sluggish and have low energy (because boy do they ever sap it out of me!). If I'm with my husband at a function with his work friends, unless there's someone I know that I can talk to, I basically keep to myself once he wanders off to socialize. If I'm with one of my own personal friends, not someone I know through my kids' school (which is pretty rare), I practically fall all over myself talking. And then when I'm out running errands around total strangers, I'm likely to make the most ridiculous and random small talk because I'm nervous AF, like the time I was buying toilet paper at 11:30 at night because I realized when I was going to bed that someone had used up the absolute last of it and not bothered telling me, so I was super embarrassed standing in the Walgreens checkout, as though no one else in the world has a butt to wipe.

She's a Psy.D. rather than a social worker...which I thought at the time would be to my benefit because the only other therapist I'd clicked with for a time had been a Psy.D., and two that I couldn't stand were social workers. I'm thinking now it's more likely down to individual personalities rather than any particular education or license, but I do like her, at least. She takes copious notes and asks me about things from previous visits, including taking a great interest in my writing, which is my passion and getting back to it has really helped me come out of this fog.

I suppose I should bring it up the next time I see her, but realistically, I know I probably won't be comfortable with that confrontation. Although maybe she will put 2 and 2 together, as I went from that into an explanation that my episode of Major Depression had mostly dissipated by the time I ever saw her because I was initially so hung up on finding a psychiatrist and getting meds and intentionally NOT wanting to seek counseling because of my experience with my last counselor, who lost my trust. She asked me (again, b/c I'd told her before when she asked at my first visit) what happened with that therapist, and I told her: I'd gone back to her for help with parenting my daughter, whom my husband and I are pretty certain has ADHD and possibly Oppositional Defiance Disorder, and she told me that she didn't see any of those traits and I was overreacting, creating the problem myself...then when I stopped by later to pay the bill she'd finally mailed out, she admitted she'd since seen more patients my daughter's age who seemed quite like her, and she finally understood what I'd been saying. But by then the damage was done, and I didn't feel like I could trust her again.

I didn't even see the parallel until I was dwelling on it afterward, so whether or not she did, I have no idea. :/

Maybe she's just an idiot.

[ElectricManatee]

I'm intrigued by her comment. On the one hand, I think it could have been a ham-handed and very invalidating attempt at a compliment. On the other hand, it could be a red flag that she doesn't understand high-functioning depressed people. Or several other possible interpretations. I'm less inclined to believe that she's incompetent, though, if you feel like she's listening, taking you seriously in general, and helping you make some progress.

I think the only way to know what she meant is to ask, but I definitely don't think it has to be a "confrontation." I've done this many times with my T, where she says something (especially toward the end of a session) and I think about it afterward and come back at my next appointment and say, "Last time you said X, and I've been wondering what you meant by that." I am SHOCKED by how often I negatively misinterpret benign or even positive comments she makes. And that has made me realize that I do/did it all the time in the rest of my life too. The major difference is that in therapy I can come back and dig deeply into whatever thing felt off or kind of hurtful to try to understand the other person's perspective and why I interpreted their words the way I did.

I have/had a fairly negative view of myself, but my therapist likes me a lot as a person. It took YEARS for me to truly believe that she likes me and genuinely enjoys the time we spend together. Our divergent perspectives on my value and likeability has led to more than a few miscommunications. One example was fairly early on when she suggested I join a therapy group. I refused because I thought she was trying to get rid of me, and I really, really didn't want to stop seeing her, but I didn't feel like I could tell her that I liked her a lot or ask if she was trying to get rid of me. It was only much later that I learned she meant I should join a therapy group in addition to seeing her individually. In fact I think I could have joined her therapy group if I had wanted to. In hindsight, it was a huge missed opportunity, all because deep down I was scared that my presence was unwanted.

Anyway, my point is that sometimes being willing to dig into the messy and complicated stuff that comes up in the therapeutic relationship can be a way forward. If it goes well, you get the experience of healthy relationship repair, plus you might learn something about yourself in the process.

[awkwardlyyours]

Yeah, I've dealt with this -- actually am still dealing with it.

About 6-8 months after I started seeing my current therapist (it's now about 2 years), we had a series of ruptures -- kinda non-stop over a couple of months.

The crux of it was that I didn't think she 'saw' me, gave a damn about me quite like she did about other clients. I felt that I'd not only picked up on this emotionally but also from what I thought were her actions / behaviors.

So, I basically just kept goading her to anger because I thought whatever she said in anger was the 'truth' (and not the usual empathy-laden stuff that I took to be therapist shtick).

End result -- she blurted out once that she didn't think I'd had any real issues to talk about because soon after I'd started therapy with her, the 2016 US elections happened and I talked a bit about it in some of my sessions (I was freaked out for a number of personal reasons).

It still haunts me that she could've said that -- actually not so much that she said it but the feeling that I'd been right all along that she hadn't actually taken me seriously.

So, I actually brought it up with her again a couple of weeks ago when something else mildly rupturous was happening between us -- she didn't really have an answer to why she said it but she asked if I really had to focus on just that one thing that she said during a time when things were pretty heated versus all the other stuff she's said and done for me?

I don't know -- the jury's out on it, still. It doesn't by itself bother me enough to quit but I'm not able to still totally look past it either.

So, I suppose I'd just say the same to you -- if there's other stuff that makes it worthwhile to stay, stick around and see how you feel?

[DysthymicJedi]

Yeah, I'm not ready to just outright quit--if only because I'd started going because I promised a friend I would. It just took me aback, and as several of you have commented (and maybe I did myself) it felt very invalidating. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but when you self-identify a certain way and someone tells you they don't see it or you don't seem it...whether it's this or any other issue (gender, race, whatever, where you're expected to present a certain way and in some fashion don't meet those predetermined expectations)...it's offputting, at the very least.

Seems like I always go in with a plan of what I want to talk about and it never quit happens that way. Maybe next appointment, I need to go in with a physical list in hand, with this at the top. I doubt it'll end up being an *actual* confrontation, just...that's how it feels to me. I have considered that I may also have Avoidant Personality Disorder for as much as I try to stay out of conflict (and even contact) with other people.

But quite honestly, if she needs an actual accounting of my depression, I could parade numerous people from life through her office who could confirm without hesitation that oh yes, this girl's middle name might as well be Eeyore.

Thanks for noticing. :P LOL

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by DysthymicJedi

But quite honestly, if she needs an actual accounting of my depression, I could parade numerous people from life through her office who could confirm without hesitation that oh yes, this girl's middle name might as well be Eeyore.

Are you worried that she doesn't believe you? To be honest, at only eight sessions in, a lot of people are still warming up and attempting to let their guard down. You're still the expert on you, and her attempts to tell you how she sees you (rather than how you see you or how others might see you) are likely to still be somewhat unrefined at this point. H ell, I have seen my T probably hundreds of times and she still gets things wrong about me occasionally.

One thing that's tricky about dysthymia/persistent depressive disorder is that it can be kind of sneaky in its tenacity. People with persistent depression figure out how to mask the darkness and go on with life. It isn't obvious in the way that isolated major depressive episodes can be (e.g., if you can't get out of bed and aren't showering anymore, it's more obvious something is wrong). The subtlety is why people walk around for years or decades without being diagnosed. Often even the person who has it doesn't know that it's treatable since it either feels like their personality or just how life is. So I can absolutely see where a therapist who is just getting to know you might still see the mask a little more than the struggling person behind it. It's okay to tell your T that she missed the mark a little. Hopefully she's gentle and humble enough to listen to you.

So, I actually brought it up with her again a couple of weeks ago when something else mildly rupturous was happening between us -- she didn't really have an answer to why she said it but she asked if I really had to focus on just that one thing that she said during a time when things were pretty heated versus all the other stuff she's said and done for me?

I don't know -- the jury's out on it, still. It doesn't by itself bother me enough to quit but I'm not able to still totally look past it either.

This is a familiar experience for me. How to judge what is genuinely hurtful enough to be irreparable versus what can be moved beyond as a human mistake or ill-judged comment? Is the hurt lessened if something loving has alternately been given? Not easy.

[DysthymicJedi]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Are you worried that she doesn't believe you?

...Maybe? When I first got treatment several years ago, my mother couldn't fathom I "had a problem" either. And I've had at least a handful of people over the years say similar things--not necessarily TO me, and not necessarily in regard to depression--but describing me as open, and fun, and...happy... things I would never have said about myself. So obviously I successfully mask around *some* people...but not the ones I live with, and probably not the ones I have to associate with when I have my kids with me (no energy for it, maybe). Probably just the ones I think I still still have a shot at impressing.

I might also be scared she's going to come back with some other, "scarier" diagnosis. Depression, anxiety, and dysthymia are monsters I've learned how to wrangle--even if just recently. I've JUST started feeling good, *not* depressed, and that's down to all the work I've been putting into it. I'd rather keep moving forward, try to get a handle on the Seasonal Affective I'll be dealing with in a few months' time if I let my self-care slip over the winter.

But yeah, overall I have very, very big issues with being dismissed, invalidated, and not listened to, and just now it's dawned on me that maybe it's triggered that more than anything else. :/

[Fuzzybear]

“Dismissed, invalidated, not listened to..”

I can definitely relate to this