[Lrad123]

I have a question for those of you who have experienced transference in therapy. I tend to be much more open in emails than in person with my T and I have sent him many emotional/angry emails in the time that I’ve known him. When we talk about it I always tell him that I know the emails aren’t about him. I mean, really, he’s just a nice guy who’s trying to help. He’s very open to talking about transference, but it feels a bit awkward to me. Yesterday he asked if I knew who I was thinking of when I write emails to him. I said I don’t and he said he thought I probably did. But I’m not sure I do. Is it always a parent? Neither patent seems quite right, but I’m just not sure. How do you know?

A lot of stuff is just outside our consciousness awareness. Eg, a mother doesn't get her breast out quick enough. The baby experiences anger/rage etc. That gets push into the unconscious. But remains there in our inner life's.

[Lrad123]

How are we supposed to figure it out? He seemed to think I should know who it’s about and I’m not sure. I told him I’d think about it, so I’m asking the wise minds of PC how to go about this.

[DP_2017]

"Transference" confuses me greatly. It seems like a fancy word used in therapy, I'd never heard it before then.

I don't think it's always about someone or something else. How come we can't just have actual feelings about something without hidden meaning?

I've read from many things online that sometimes it can be something you are missing in life as well... I personally just think they use it keep clients at bay.

I refuse to use the word. I say bond or connection because that's what it is. I don't feel he is at all parental like to me and my parents suck, I'm not looking for better ones. No idea, I'd personally ask him this stuff if he thinks you are supposed to somehow know

Originally Posted by Lrad123

How are we supposed to figure it out? He seemed to think I should know who it’s about and I’m not sure. I told him I’d think about it, so I’m asking the wise minds of PC how to go about this.

In not sure telling you that you should know is helpful.
For me it's like a lighbulb moment. I may have spent months, years repeating myself then suddenly as I'm talking to T I say "oh, that's like with my mother"

We don't know this, until we know it.

[here today]

I don't know that I'm wise, but I have a lot of experience. And I, too, am not sure that telling you that you know is helpful. You know if you know, he doesn't. Maybe it's in your unconscious somewhere but that's not at all the same thing.

Once I fully felt the anger/rage at my last T for her -- shaming, rejecting, disrespect -- of me -- I'm still not sure I have words for everything -- eventually that connected up with how I felt about an aunt, and actually several female relatives, in my past.

The key was, though, that I pretty much fully felt the anger/rage, triggered by my last therapist's treatment of me.

So, for me, it was transference of feelings but also the recognition of some things in reality that I was blind to. Maybe he's not JUST a nice guy who is trying to help. Maybe he is more multi-faceted than that. What if, sometimes, it really IS about him -- but it strikes you at a sore spot and you don't know, yet, what to do about that.

If you all could talk about that, in person, in the here-and-now, somehow -- seems like that might help? If he accepts his multifaceted-ness? And if you could accept that about him, and about you, too? But I never found a T who could. Maybe it was because I CHOSE narcissistic T's, like in my family of origin -- but it had to play out over more than 50 years for me to find that out. Hope things work out better for you.

[Rive.]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Is it always a parent? Neither patent seems quite right, but I’m just not sure.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a parent but a parental figure, caregiver or a significant other from your past, as they say.

[Lrad123]

I guess I am the one using the word transference (although he has mentioned it before). He specifically asked who I thought I was writing the emails to (addressed to him, but clearly full of emotion not really related to him). I think that’s the same thing as transference. He specifically asked if it was my father, mother or someone else. I just don’t know. I guess I’ll keep thinking about it.

[LonesomeTonight]

I agree that it doesn't have to be about a parent, or at least not directly. One random thought: Do you have trouble with people caring about you? Like, do you maybe feel like you don't deserve to be cared about? If so, this could be a way you're subconsciously trying to push him away. And that might not be transference per se, but more attachment issues.
And if that doesn't ring true at all, maybe just think about what role he plays in your life and what it's been like with others in that role. Like, say, a mentor, a boss/supervisor, any sort of authority figure. A significant other. Even a friend from the present or past. And it doesn't even have to be about your relationship to them mirroring that of your T. It could just be your T bears a slight resemblance to someone you know or knew.


Maybe just talk about the emotions you feel when you send those emails to him and see what comes up? Or other times in your life you've felt them?

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I agree that it doesn't have to be about a parent, or at least not directly. One random thought: Do you have trouble with people caring about you? Like, do you maybe feel like you don't deserve to be cared about? If so, this could be a way you're subconsciously trying to push him away. And that might not be transference per se, but more attachment issues.
And if that doesn't ring true at all, maybe just think about what role he plays in your life and what it's been like with others in that role. Like, say, a mentor, a boss/supervisor, any sort of authority figure. A significant other. Even a friend from the present or past. And it doesn't even have to be about your relationship to them mirroring that of your T. It could just be your T bears a slight resemblance to someone you know or knew.


Maybe just talk about the emotions you feel when you send those emails to him and see what comes up? Or other times in your life you've felt them?

This is really helpful. I’m definitely trying to push him away in not-so-subtle ways, and most likely have issues with attachment and neglect. Having someone not be there for me of course doesn’t feel nice, but it may almost feel more stressful to have some reliably be there. I’m an adult, though, so I feel like I shouldn’t need that. I like the idea of thinking about what emotions come up with my emails. I tend to block them out once I send them, but maybe I’ll go back and read them. Thanks.

[nottrustin]

I have kind have lashes out a couple of times T through emails. It had nothing to do with me thinking it was somebody else. It was when something happened that frustrated me or I misinterpreted. For me it was more about being able to better express emotions in email because I have less of a filter. I would hit send and then regret it. If it was because I was frustrated and it wasn't anything she had done I would email back and apologize and tell her it was jor her I was upset with but rather what was going on. If She said something that I misinterpreted she would clarify what she meant. We would then discuss it.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I have kind have lashes out a couple of times T through emails. It had nothing to do with me thinking it was somebody else. It was when something happened that frustrated me or I misinterpreted. For me it was more about being able to better express emotions in email because I have less of a filter. I would hit send and then regret it. If it was because I was frustrated and it wasn't anything she had done I would email back and apologize and tell her it was jor her I was upset with but rather what was going on. If She said something that I misinterpreted she would clarify what she meant. We would then discuss it.

I'm glad to see someone else calling it like it is. IT can just be about the moment or a feeling and it CAN be about them. There is not always a mysterious hidden meaning from our past.

I don't think it necessarily has to be connected to parents or parental figures although that's a possibility. I experienced overreactions and emotional displacement sometimes just because some things in a person's behavior reminded me of someone else (sometimes just from near past) that was very uncomfortable or crazy making. When I got intensely angry at my first T, there was an element of that in it. He tried to push interpretations that it had to do with my parents, but it did not, they never ever behaved even vaguely like that with me. But some jerks in my adult life did. They weren't even very significant people for me, but I had to deal with them.

I agree that we cannot easily identify what's completely unconscious, dissociated, or whatnot. But I do think it is best if we try to figure it out and the T does not push their ideas as they can be completely misguided, like in my case. I would try to observe what exactly triggers the emotional/angry impulses, what I am reacting to in the moment. Then ask what was similar in the past that I can recall. And would not restrict looking only at childhood experiences.

I also sometimes overreacted with Ts via email as there is less reality check that way. Or got emotional in ways I never would in person. Then regret it/feel ashamed. I also simply just got urges to email too often, I never feel obsessive in that way in direct 3D communication with people. Sometimes it is just a strong desire to express something that is on my mind in a moment. In a direct conversation, my attention is less focused internally and feelings/reactions are adjusted by the other person's input. For example, I rarely act angry in person if there is nothing in the actual situation that is anger-provoking and I just feel internally irritable for no external reason. But if it is only me alone with my thoughts, they flow more freely. It is not necessarily transference.

[Ididitmyway]

No, it's not always a parent. We can "transfer" the images of any characters we've come across to in our life, who were significant to us in any way. Besides, oftentimes, I believe, the transference image we put on someone (not only a therapist) is a collective image our mind has created out of many important life experiences. Part of this collective image is not only our past but also our hopes for and expectations of the future. So, the transference phenomena is much more complex than just the popular notion that we unconsciously perceive the therapist as the parent. This notion is too simplistic, too primitive and too reductive to describe the complex reality of this process. In this light, your therapist's comment that you might know who is the real character behind your transference is arrogant and stupid (sorry for being blunt). It's arrogant because it implies that he "knows" that you know whose image you are transferring onto him meaning that he "knows" your mental process as a fact, which he can't know. And it's stupid because even if he believes that you know who is behind your transference, it's not smart to approach this issue head on. It's more helpful and more natural to ask open-ended questions that would allow you to elaborate on what you are feeling in the moment and what this experience means to you in the moment, which would allow the past experiences to come to surface on their own without force. Besides, whatever he believes, it's just a belief, not a fact, so it's arrogant and stupid to push it on you.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

No, it's not always a parent. We can "transfer" the images of any characters we've come across to in our life, who were significant to us in any way. Besides, oftentimes, I believe, the transference image we put on someone (not only a therapist) is a collective image our mind has created out of many important life experiences. Part of this collective image is not only our past but also our hopes for and expectations of the future. So, the transference phenomena is much more complex than just the popular notion that we unconsciously perceive the therapist as the parent. This notion is too simplistic, too primitive and too reductive to describe the complex reality of this process. In this light, your therapist's comment that you might know who is the real character behind your transference is arrogant and stupid (sorry for being blunt). It's arrogant because it implies that he "knows" that you know whose image you are transferring onto him meaning that he "knows" your mental process as a fact, which he can't know. And it's stupid because even if he believes that you know who is behind your transference, it's not smart to approach this issue head on. It's more helpful and more natural to ask open-ended questions that would allow you to elaborate on what you are feeling in the moment and what this experience means to you in the moment, which would allow the past experiences to come to surface on their own without force. Besides, whatever he believes, it's just a belief, not a fact, so it's arrogant and stupid to push it on you.

This is great. Thank you.

[BudFox]

I don't see why a therapist should be discounted as the actual cause of the anger, just because he/she is nice. In fact people who are always nice and agreeable can be exasperating.

On top of this, therapists are manipulative and ambiguous, and they expose needs but then only analyze and toy with them, and they encourage trust and intimacy then keep you at a distance and refuse mutual openness. In short they are sadists, but it's all done with a caring face.

So anger in this context is perfectly reasonable, and the therapist ought to answer for this rather than throw down the transference red herring.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I have a question for those of you who have experienced transference in therapy. I tend to be much more open in emails than in person with my T and I have sent him many emotional/angry emails in the time that I’ve known him. When we talk about it I always tell him that I know the emails aren’t about him. I mean, really, he’s just a nice guy who’s trying to help. He’s very open to talking about transference, but it feels a bit awkward to me. Yesterday he asked if I knew who I was thinking of when I write emails to him. I said I don’t and he said he thought I probably did. But I’m not sure I do. Is it always a parent? Neither patent seems quite right, but I’m just not sure. How do you know?

I actually think that in your case it seems logical that anger might be really related to parents. Considering what you've described about yourself that you are and have been very independent and self-sufficient (and probably quite early on), it seems likely that there could be lots of rage underneath. However, if it all stems from very early age from which no conscious memories have been formed yet then it is also possible that you are never able to make this link in an explicit way (like, yeah, now I get it, it is about my mother).

Although many people here suggest that perhaps the anger is justified and generated by the T then I think that's not very useful to think that way. First, your T is mostly just sitting there and talking to you. I'm pretty certain that no other person just talking to you is making you angry just by that. Thus, it can't really be (mainly) the realistic interaction with T. On the other hand, it is the T and it is his job to try to draw these things out. Because only by drawing this stuff out you have the opportunity to work with it. That's how therapy works. And people who think that therapy should be a pleasant walk in the park have misunderstood the concept. Therapy IS unpleasant and it is supposed to be that way, otherwise it just wouldn't work.

About anger and emotional emails again. It probably will take time but eventually hopefully you will be able to bring those emotions into session. If they always stay in the emails and can't be brought into session then the potential to do something with these emotions is limited. Thus, to my mind emailing can be good to some extend but it can also become a defence of keeping the T at a distance.

However, if you will be able to bring this anger into session then even if you can't link it directly to your parents, revealing and expressing this anger repeatedly should eventually bring you to a point where it starts to dissipate. And if that happens then you might also notice changes in your life that in some strange way were related to all this stuff.

This is a process that takes time and you are the one who dictates the pace (mostly unconsciously). Meanwhile it really doesn't matter what you talk in sessions - because the whole point is to make the space and the relationship secure, comfortable and trustworthy enough so that the real emotions could come into session. Once that happens, the real work can begin.

For me, another way I can sometimes overreact or displace anger is simple projection. Mentally assigning (or exaggerating) features or issues that I most dislike in myself but can't change very effectively. This is not classic transference because it does not come from anyone else in my past, just my own flaws. This is probably the most useful for me to recognize since it's directly linked to things that come from me and then can be effectively worked on if I make the effort.

The object transference can be trickier, because it is sometimes hard to find usefulness for the awareness, other than identifying where some of our reactions come from and then trying to change the reactions in the future. With the simple projection, we can remain mindful to think before we dump it on someone else again and, if it's negative, eliminate or alter what causes it so that there won't be anything to project.

An example from my own life that I really struggled with, and still do at times, is procrastination. I can get really angry with colleagues sometimes when they procrastinate tasks and projects and then everything has to be done in a stress or will lack in quality because there isn't enough time. But I hate procrastination the most when I do it, because I am lazy, distracted, too anxious, don't have enough discipline etc. This is only related to my parents in such a way that when I was a kid, they did not teach me work discipline (or even good discipline relating to self care) at all. It was a wonderful freedom back then and I got away with it as a child because I did not have any serious responsibilities or hard work to do. School was always easy for me, for example. But then I grew into an adult who really likes complex, challenging problems and projects, and I choose a challenging career, but sometimes I struggle with the discipline necessary for it. And sometimes I expect discipline and resourcefulness that I don't even have myself, from others. I had a version of this with my therapists as well. In terms of expressing it, when these projections happen to me, I much more frequently voice them via email. Why? Because face-to-face, I usually get a good sense that my feelings and concerns are exaggerated, I am unfair, or it is not out there at all. But me alone, when I write, especially impulsively, that reality check can be lacking.

As a mentor, for example, I now try to make sure that if I have concerns about someone's performance or quality of work, I discuss it in person and won't put in emails just to unload my feelings in the moment. I think this is something that many Ts should exercise better as well to avoid massive countertransference reactions. Because then of course the client will get angry - then the anger can be cultivated and multiplied in a long chain, without resolving anything. Especially if no one really takes responsibility for theirs.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by feileacan

Although many people here suggest that perhaps the anger is justified and generated by the T then I think that's not very useful to think that way. First, your T is mostly just sitting there and talking to you. I'm pretty certain that no other person just talking to you is making you angry just by that.

Therapists aren't just sitting there. They are playing a very particular game and particular role. Creates very particular effects. We all know this. As someone said, many unconscious deals are done in therapy. They are manipulating emotions, even if it's done non-verbally or through implied promises.

In the real world, if an interaction causes some emotion, you look first at that interaction, instead of automatically lurching back to childhood. If therapy departs from this, then therapy might not be so relevant to real life. It's more like an alternate reality.

Might as well construct a dummy, put a pipe in its mouth, pretend to interact with it. Would less expensive.

[here today]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Therapists aren't just sitting there. They are playing a very particular game and particular role. Creates very particular effects. We all know this. As someone said, many unconscious deals are done in therapy. They are manipulating emotions, even if it's done non-verbally or through implied promises.

In the real world, if an interaction causes some emotion, you look first at that interaction, instead of automatically lurching back to childhood. If therapy departs from this, then therapy might not be so relevant to real life. It's more like an alternate reality.

Might as well construct a dummy, put a pipe in its mouth, pretend to interact with it. Would less expensive.

Yes. And the terror, the horror, of it for me was that in all those years, I thought I was having a "real relationship", of some sort, with another person. I was duped. Yeah, OK, I had a tendency to fall for the duping going into therapy. But all those years? Therapy is dangerous and hurtful and lives can be ruined or stymied in ways more insidious than what happened in childhood.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Therapists aren't just sitting there. They are playing a very particular game and particular role. Creates very particular effects. We all know this. As someone said, many unconscious deals are done in therapy. They are manipulating emotions, even if it's done non-verbally or through implied promises.

I see it differently. It's not my role to convince you or anyone else otherwise and you can't hope to convince me to see things the way you see because I just don't!

Of course many unconscious deals are done in therapy. That's the whole point. But if you look just the surface reality, it is just two people talking. In a particular way. With the goal of one person getting to know more about their stuff. With the other person trying to keep out of the way of that goal as much as possible. Sometimes inevitably failing in that. Keeping trying.

Well, my first therapist was very messy, manipulative, and even directly hostile in the end of my time with him. With things that he did (sloppy dealing with scheduling and administration), things that he said and the way they were said, and blaming. That was all right there with him, and we did nothing else but conversing in sessions or emails. I am quite puzzled at why someone could not be directly frustrating and anger-provoking by just talking and writing things? For me, most of the time when I get upset with people, it is in response to something they say, especially repeatedly. Some of it may be transference but I think most is just plain conflicts in the moment.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

For me, most of the time when I get upset with people, it is in response to something they say, especially repeatedly. Some of it may be transference but I think most is just plain conflicts in the moment.

Of course it can be like this in principle. However, while responding in this thread I have kept in mind what I know about Lrad's T and their interactions and so far I haven't noticed anything that would realistically warrant such conflicts. Rather, they really seem to me like feelings drawn out by the therapy process but really relating to some old past.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Therapists aren't just sitting there. They are playing a very particular game and particular role. Creates very particular effects. We all know this. As someone said, many unconscious deals are done in therapy. They are manipulating emotions, even if it's done non-verbally or through implied promises.

In the real world, if an interaction causes some emotion, you look first at that interaction, instead of automatically lurching back to childhood. If therapy departs from this, then therapy might not be so relevant to real life. It's more like an alternate reality.

Might as well construct a dummy, put a pipe in its mouth, pretend to interact with it. Would less expensive.

Unfortunately, you are right about playing a particular game being a part of therapy training. This is the part I had always vehemently rejected in training.

Certainly, when you notice the game that your therapist plays, that's a legitimate reason to get angry because, in human interactions, playing a certain game is, by definition, a manipulation, and anyone with some basic self-respect would get angry about being manipulated.

I also agree that before transference is considered, the present time interactions need to be looked at for what they are, at the face value. If something objectively dishonest takes place on the therapist part, any notion that the anger in the client is created by their transference is a manipulation designed to deny the therapist's responsibility for their real screw ups. This is gaslighting that many clients experience in therapy on a regular basis. I was certainly a victim of it as well.

That said, I can't say, again, based on experience, that every therapist plays a game and that transference is not a real phenomena. I've met therapists who were genuine in their expressions and I know from my personal experience that transference is a real "thing". But, of course, it is difficult at times to separate what kind of feelings are created by the real present situation and which ones are created by transference. In my experience, in most cases it's a combination of both, which, of course makes this whole thing incredibly confusing and hard to sort out.

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I have a question for those of you who have experienced transference in therapy. I tend to be much more open in emails than in person with my T and I have sent him many emotional/angry emails in the time that I’ve known him. When we talk about it I always tell him that I know the emails aren’t about him. I mean, really, he’s just a nice guy who’s trying to help. He’s very open to talking about transference, but it feels a bit awkward to me. Yesterday he asked if I knew who I was thinking of when I write emails to him. I said I don’t and he said he thought I probably did. But I’m not sure I do. Is it always a parent? Neither patent seems quite right, but I’m just not sure. How do you know?

Parental transference is the most common because parents seemed 'bigger' than everyone else; usually the mother, but they were the most important and impactful person in your life. Mothering/lack of can be life or death.

I agree with others that it's not always a parent. Therapists can be annoying or trigger feelings just like everyone else. Don't forget, you can have transference that doesn't 'meant a lot'. Transference isn't just about obsessiveness or intense feelings like you would think if all you knew about it was what you read here. Transference can be wanting to distance yourself from people for example.