[Amyjay]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I know it's pointless to debate with you, but it was more the intensity of his reaction to some things lately. Saying he didn't want to be controlled or micromanaged. Saying he felt trapped. Saying he felt what I said was manipulative. Saying he was frustrated with me. So much of that is about *him* and his feelings. Not like, "Oh I wonder what's going on with LT here, let's examine this." It's "How does it affect me?" (referring to Dr. T). If this was a regular relationship, like a friendship, a marriage, family--certainly, he should be sharing his feelings. But it's not. I've often read that part of what you pay a therapist for, besides their time/expertise, is for them to keep their feelings out of it. (Ex-MC often said I didn't have to worry about his feelings, for example, and would say he felt he did something wrong when I did care. Ex-T would say I didn't need to worry about her. K said similarly.) Otherwise, what is it beyond a paid friendship?

But wait - wasn't it *you* that was always pushing him to tell you about his feelings? Wasn't it you that always wanted him to tell you how he felt about you? Wasn't it you that was always so anxious about needing to know if he cared / if he thought well of you / if he still liked you / if he still accepted you?

Didn't *you* make it all about his feelings all the way through?

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by unaluna

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

I don't understand why you are talking about LT in the third person, instead of taking to her. You don't want to validate her explorations and you do want to validate Dr, T from where you sit. Ok. But you are coming off as belittling to LT, by speaking for her T ( door hit your butt on the way out ). He may or may not have motivations like the ones described, but he has shown care and work and so has LT. . Talking to LT directly, and not in the third person about her is more respectful.

[Yellowbuggy]

Good therapy involves a delicate balance of providing validation and challenging the client to face the truth, which can be painful.

Ex-MC was great at validating - anything and everything was ok, until it wasn’t. Validation alone is only so helpful. If it was, the therapy would have been successful.

Dr.T was the exact opposite. I do believe he cared about LT, but I agree he got frustrated in the end and wasn’t willing to change his stance because he believes in it. That’s ok.

LT - I think you can find a T that works for you, but I wouldn’t take a chance with an inexperienced T. I would also stick with a woman T. Remove the element of sexual tension from the room entirely. It plays a big role in your core issues.

[atisketatasket]

LT, changing topics—you have a psychiatrist, right? Perhaps she (I think?) might be of help in finding a suitable therapist?

And I think you are on meds—and I am wondering if you might consider an adjustment. A lot of the buildup to this seemed to involve increasingly common spiraling thoughts about Dr. T, sh, si. That might be something a medication change could help with.

You’ve said you’re perimenopausal and hormone changes can certainly counteract meds on which you’re normally stable.

[susannahsays]

By the way, I probably wouldn't juxtapose a sentiment about paying M or another therapist you meet with to keep their feelings out of it with a question about their willingness to express care. I guess you could ask if you could pay them to filter out any negative feelings, but that would probably not have a good reception and isn't possible to do in any case.

Maybe the Japanese will create a robot therapist who can accommodate these conflicting demands.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

I don't understand why you are talking about LT in the third person, instead of taking to her... Talking to LT directly, and not in the third person about her is more respectful.

Im sorry if i upset you or LT by my choice of person. I do confess to a dramatic, metaphoric tone when discussing even my own psychological conundrae(sp?). I intend no disrespect in any case.

[atisketatasket]

Just conundra (neuter plural).

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Just conundra (neuter plural).

Hey! I get to choose my pronouns, isnt that in your syllabae? boy, things could get complicated! This could be REALLY why Rome fell.

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Yes, ex-MC had told me how it's really common, and very similar to how kids test their parents (from when they're young to teens). To me, it seemed like an opportunity for him to work with me on the source of that. And I said multiple times that it wasn't just about him, that it was a bigger thing. But he seemed to insist that it was mostly about him. So I'd get kinda stuck. Like he didn't want to make therapy about him so much, but then he'd say my reactions were about him...

Do you find that you test people in this way outside of therapy in your every day life? Or just within therapy

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by unaluna

You did that with mc at the end too, accusing him of having too loose boundaries. Maybe you are being overly aggressive when you are under the influence, and neither you nor the t is realizing thats what is going on? Then afterwards you rightly innocently disavow, but the damage has been done.

Honestly for me ( amd I speak only for myself ) my t doing extra things, beyond what hed normally do for a client ( his words) because he "cared" made me elated. I felt so special and like a teachers pet. Every time hed respond to my text at 9pm or spend extra time with me , buy me gifts , everything. It solidified that feeling of being special and needing to be special to him. But with me I always want more and that is my major downfall. I always want more it will never be enough to me. If t moved into my home with me and talked to me every waking moment , I would somehow want MORE. It's the same with drugs with me. Even though I'm good I want more. Push the limit. How far can I go

There is obviously an element of self sabotage and self destruction within that pattern

But when t did something I didnt like , it became a source of resentment and bitterness. You used to do this why not anymore??? Then self blame and hatred. And hatred for T

It's all fine and dandy until something goes sour . Then jts a major source of conflict

When t slowly took the extra stuff away I spent a LONG time in turmoil trying to get them back

I'm glad to say that now it's not as big as an issue for me. And I've come to accept that t has done the right thing here. I am notably less dependent on him and the extras.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by junkDNA

...When t slowly took the extra stuff away I spent a LONG time in turmoil trying to get them back...I'm glad to say that now it's not as big as an issue for me. And I've come to accept that t has done the right thing here. I am notably less dependent on him and the extras...

Yeah, my t did like the same 5 extra things from beginning to end. Somewhere in the middle there were like 2 or 3 extra extra things, like i literally cried on his shoulder, but after i did it once, i didnt need it again, so it wasnt a matter of his taking it away. Like if he let me lean on his shoulder but then i didnt cry, then the next (not necessarily consecutive) time, i had probably processed whatever enough. It wasnt all about his shoulder. It was about what i was processing at the moment. And the "same 5 things" (opening hug, closing hug, etc) provided stability and unconditional positive regard.

Eta - altho i did have a standing request in for him to take me to his home for the weekend and carry me around in a Snugli as he cut the lawn, played tennis, etc.

[Nik87]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Some of the, well, lowlights from now-ex-Dr.T Monday.

I started by saying I thought maybe we're at an impasse, how I'm struggling to get past some things he's said lately. He immediately got defensive and said how he didn't say I was being manipulative, that he said what he felt what I did was manipulative. Me: "Actually, that's not what I was referring to..."

I mentioned his saying he'd felt "trapped" when I wrote to him with

Possible trigger:

SUI/SH thoughts a couple weeks before

. T: "I was just being honest about how I felt." Me: "But 'trapped' has a really negative feel to it. It suggests I did that intentionally, when I didn't." T: "OK, we can use 'pressured.' Is that better?" Me: "Yes."

T said he was trying to protect his outside life, such as his time. I said he could have just written a couple sentences back to me (vs. the two long emails he sent). T: "That wouldn't have been enough for you." Me: "Yes it would have. It has been in the past. Or if you said you couldn't write more then, but referred me to crisis line. That would have been better than what you wrote." T: "I said some supportive things in there." Me: "But it was mixed in with more negative things. So it was hard to focus on those." T said something else about just being honest. I said how you could say someone is ugly and then defend that because it's "honest." I forget what he said to that.

I was suddenly like, "Can I just pay now?" T: "Uh, I guess, yeah." He said I didn't have to stand up, he took card from me, put it through, handed it back, and sat back down. Me: "I meant to do that at the beginning and just forgot." T: "OK."

T: "I feel like you think I've been cruel to you." Me: "I've never used that word before. You're projecting that onto me." (I was turning the tables there, as lately he's said I've been projecting onto him.) T: "Well, you seem to think it." Me: "You have been pretty harsh at times lately." T: "You keep projecting things onto me and it bothers me." (I wanted to say, "Yeah, it's called transference," but I resisted.)

Bringing up something from last time, I said I'd pushed for more signs of caring from him because I hadn't felt it from him lately. T: "I'm not the one who should be providing that." I didn't know what to say to that. T: "And if I showed more caring, you'd just want more and more. You'd never be satisfied." I said I disagreed with that. How, I know this isn't about love, but this is just the example that comes to mind. That H and I say "I love you" to each other multiple times a day. So I don't feel the need to ask him "do you love me?" And I try to do the same with D.

I mentioned how I often felt worse after sessions. Particularly those about therapeutic relationship. Forget what he said to that?
I asked if he had thoughts on potential ways for us to move forward. T: "Do you actually want me to talk about those? Because I get the sense that maybe you just want to end." Me: "...Yeah, I think maybe I just need to end, take a break at least."

T started talking about how I'd do with other therapists. T: "You're either going to be unhappy with the next therapeutic relationship because you'll hit up against their boundaries and it won't be enough. Or else you'll end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with Ex-MC. Where it's more like an outside relationship." Me: "But isn't there a big middle ground in there." T: "Maybe?"

He told me that I shouldn't spend much time with a future T talking about stuff with him. Because that's not really what I'm in therapy for. He said he got frustrated that I talked about ex-MC so much in the beginning with him. Me: "But...I came to see you specifically to consult about ex-MC...and told you that. So, of course I was going to talk about him. And I imagine I'll need to process this, about you. Because I've been seeing you twice a week for 2 years." T: "But you shouldn't take much time on it. Because the T might wonder what you're doing there." Me: "...."

He confirmed that he should take me off the schedule for Thursday and that I didn't want to schedule any future sessions. I said he was right. I asked if it was still OK to come back at some point, like if I saw another T for a while, then maybe wanted to continue working with him on some things. T said it was fine. Me: "OK, I know you've said that in the past, just making sure it still applied." T: "Yes." Me: "Or even if it's just for one session, in, say, 3 weeks to talk things through?" T: "Yes. And I'd be surprised if you didn't do that." Me: "OK."

I stood up to throw away my tissues, but first looked at his fish and moved finger in front of her for a second. Me: "Take good care of your fish." T: "I will." I threw away my pile of tissues.

T held out his hand. As I shook it, he said, "Good luck." Me: "Thanks." T: "Be well." Me (kinda mumbling): "You too." Then I left.

I know this was from a few days ago.. but I feel like your T is being manipulative and had a hidden agenda when he said you shouldn’t spend a lot of time talking about him to your next T. He is probably concerned about his reputation or other T’s opinion about him. You’re right, his best interest seems to come before your own.

[snowangel17]

I'm sorry to hear things didn't end so well with your T LT. Like many others, I think you can find a T that can help you and you are not doomed forever. This T just didn't seem to have the background in attachment and relational issues that it seems he needed IMO. What he said in his last session to you does not seem helpful from reading it here. Yes, you may find a new T and come across similar issues but the hope is they will help you work through those issues and help you to figure out why those patterns are happening and what you can do about them. You do need to find a T who has firm clear boundaries and is not willing to compromise but can also show you the care that you seek.

I have some similar issues with my T in that I am always looking for signs of care and pushing the boundaries. I am shown care in lots of ways but not always in the way that I want which I find frustrating. I always feel like I need it to be more explicit and THEN I would feel it but she does not think that would be helpful for various reasons. I am in no doubt she finds me incredibly frustrating at times (She has alluded to this on one occasion when I asked) but does not choose to share this with me on a regular basis or ever let it show. We are in therapy for therapists to help us. Frustration and annoyance and all those other great things should be part of their work and they should have ways to deal with it. Honesty can be beneficial at appropriate times not necessarily needed ALL of the time IMO. A good therapist would have some awareness or understanding of the reasons why a client keeps needing to know that they care or at least a willingness and curiosity to explore it further if not.

As someone else mentioned the therapy relationship is a microcosm of what goes on in the outside world. There I do also find it difficult to 'feel' other people's care having relied on myself for so much of my life. I have the awareness however not to push the boundaries of those people to ask or get them to show me in ways that are detrimental to the relationship like I do in therapy. That is what therapy is for. It allows me to explore those desires and needs that I can't really explore as safely in the real world. It's through exploring them that I hope perhaps I'll find some answers and maybe even make improvements and heal some of the old relational and attachment wounds that I have. I think the right T with solid boundaries but an ability to show care and perhaps even say it can help you do the same. Good luck in your search for your next T!

[emeraldheart]

Hi LT

I have only been reading and not posting on the forum. I always read your thread though because I am always amazed by your self-reflection and can only hope I am able to do that in my own therapy. I won’t pretend to know what I think needs to be done in your situation, because I really don’t! Also, there are more people here who have better advice and who “know” you and your situation better than I ever could.

But I just wanted to share this. Your recent fallout with your T struck me because I feel like we both struggle with the same thing - just on opposite sides.

I don’t look for reassurance from my T. i’m the opposite. I dismiss it whenever he does offer it and I get frustrated that he’s not more direct and straightforward with me. I keep telling him to be honest, just stop being nice already, and just tell me what he really thinks. “just be brutally honest”, I would say every week.

For some reason, I reject anything he says that’s remotely encouraging or reassuring. I thought I wasn’t being needy because he didn’t have to prove to me that he cared all the time. But I actually was needy, just in a different way.

We have now gotten into discussions about why I feel like I need him to be “less nice”. He has told me how he feels about my demand of him to say certain things, but not others. In my mind, I thought I was giving him the freedom to say whatever he wants, but I realized later that I wasn’t. I was unconsciously trying to micromanage and control the things he said to me. He has shared his frustration with having to prove his honesty all the time. It was really only then that I realized that just because he is reassuring and supportive, doesn’t automatically mean that he is being dishonest.

It’s still such a struggle for me and it sometimes does get in the way of actual therapy, but I’m getting there. I can now identify when I’m about to ask him for a specific answer. I am now learning how to pause and ask myself if there really is a need for me to challenge what he says, or is it my insecurity talking again? Sometimes I wonder aloud and T helps me figure out where it is coming from.

I don’t think you’re doomed at all and I hope you find the right T for you.

[LonesomeTonight]

I thought I had updated this here, but apparently not. I actually ended up going back for another session with Dr. T about 2 weeks after I'd terminated. We talked things through, and I decided to come back. I've now been back for, I guess, 2.5 months, twice a week, and it has been very different with him, in a good way. It feels like we both examined how we were acting (I admit some fault, too) and are now more respectful and understanding of each other. I really have to wonder if Dr. T either got some consultation after I left or just did a lot of thinking or research or something. Because how he approaches me now seems different. I think I've shifted in how I approach him as well. And I feel like there's been a lot of progress in the time since I've been back. Like I've delved into some really difficult issues (like from my past and present), and there have been lots of helpful insights on both of our parts. We have spent some time discussing what happened between us over the summer, but maybe just the first two sessions back, then it will occasionally come up briefly. So the therapeutic relationship is less of a main topic and more in the background. But the times it has come up, it's been OK, and T has seemed much more at ease about it. There just seems to be a level of comfort between us that wasn't there before.


I think I typed up my session when I went back to talk things through--will see if I can dig that up and post it.

[LonesomeTonight]

So this was my first session back with Dr. T, on 9/17 (I've had numerous sessions since then, including today):
In case any of you had money on this, I'm back with Dr. T. We met Tuesday (9/17) and had a good discussion. He had just assumed I was gone and wasn't coming back. Said it took a lot of courage to come in and discuss things, how many people would have just run. And he thought maybe the meeting was just to have a better ending. I said I did want a better ending, to not have just walked out in anger, but I also wanted to talk about whether he thought there were ways that we could move forward and keep working together. Because I feel we still have work to do together. So we discussed that, and we both saw ways that we could move forward.

He said he realized that in the past few months (since June really), there had been a lot of tension in the therapeutic relationship. And that it made sense that I was frustrated and angry about it. He thought it went back to the week he was on vacation, when I checked in to see if he was still alive. And he thought I was being funny, like "You're too funny, LT. No I haven't been eaten by bears!" Which seems to fit with when I feel things took a negative turn. Because it felt like he should have realized I was being serious (due to a discussion we had before he left), and it felt like a misattunement.

He said he thought the tension between us was partly a mix of his time away (three weeks off this summer) and some conflicts, that we just ended up continually working on the relationship instead of other therapy stuff. I said it would seem like we had just fixed things, then there would be another conflict, so there was no real time when things consistently felt OK. He agreed. We also discussed the push-pull dynamic that had been happening. Where I pushed more, which led him to pull back, which just led me to push more.

I said I'd started pushing more because it felt like he was being different toward me. So I was trying to get signs that everything was OK. That what my brain went to was, "He's sick of dealing with me." And things like the conflict on standing and stuff with the email when I was feeling really bad the one night seemed to confirm that. But then I also wondered if there could have been something going on in his outside life that was affecting him--adding that I wasn't trying to pry or asking if there was, but it was a way for me to make sense of it where his acting differently was *not* just about me. He didn't say anything, but a look that flashed across his face made me think I was on to something there.

He said how in the session from 2 weeks ago (when I terminated), he got the sense that I was just done, that I wanted to leave therapy with him, pretty much from from the beginning of the session. And he didn't feel he should try to convince me otherwise, which is why he responded as he did to many of the things I said.

I did mention seeing the other T's, and he wasn't surprised or bothered by it. He said he just assumed I had. I mentioned scheduling with him again, and he said I could take as long as I needed to decide if I wanted to resume working with him. I said I kind of wanted to just make a decision and go with it (like, keep looking for other T's vs. not), so could we schedule to continue the conversation?

I saw him (the following) Friday to continue the discussion, and I think it was very productive. It feels as though something has shifted in our relationship, in a positive way. Maybe I took back some power by terminating and seeing some other T's for a bit, I don't know--even if just in my own mind. It also feels like things are back to how they were between us before, like the rapport and connection are back. Those were things I couldn't know without seeing him and talking.

I'm leaving out lots of stuff here, including a long discussion (that Friday, like the second session back) about emailing and what goes through his mind with those and what he's trying to provide and also not provide--like not just saying something that will feel good in the moment but not last. He wants me to be able to feel some of these things in myself--like have confidence and faith in myself--rather than going to him for them (or even to anyone else, like friends or H, but he said it's better to go to them because they're reciprocal relationships). I said I'd need his help in figuring out how to get there, that he can say, "I want you to feel confident in yourself," but it's difficult for me to just do that. He seemed to understand and agreed that it's something we can work on together.

I asked him about something specific with email [that second session back]--like whether he'd prefer I not email in a particular scenario--and he wanted to reflect on it a bit before answering, which I appreciate. I told him I want to focus more on actual therapy stuff vs. the therapeutic relationship. Actually working on the issues about which we've both said, "This would be a good thing to work on" then never really went back to. Will this change last? Who knows? I just need to give it a try for now.

And I know I liked M the first time I saw him, but I felt a bit differently about him after seeing him the second time. I don't think he was right for me, partly because he's so new, and he also seemed a bit uncomfortable when I talked (the second session) about my history of transference for T's. I still have a list of potential T's that I researched before, and there were two others that I was going to meet with but cancelled on--one because I was going to work with M, the other, I was going to have a phone consult with but cancelled. Both have said I'm welcome to reach out to them again if my situation changes. M was a bit less...congenial to my apologies about saying I'd work with him for a month, then deciding to go back to Dr. T. That I'd enjoyed meeting him and talking to him, that it wasn't really about him but that I thought I had more work to do with Dr. T. He was just like "Good luck with your therapy."
---
So, again, that was something I typed up back in September. Can update later on how things have gone since then. Just trying to explain what went into my decision to go back to Dr. T after all the negative stuff I said about him on here. I think I also needed to sit with that decision for a bit and see how it went before posting about it in this thread (though I did mention on Couch and in Dear T). In case it blew up immediately. But there just seems to have been...for lack of a better word, a warmth from Dr. T lately, since I've been back, that had been lacking before. I mean, he hasn't gone completely to the warm and fuzzy side, but our interactions feel different. Like we each have a renewed appreciation and respect for the other person. I just really hope it continues....

[here today]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

. . . It feels like we both examined how we were acting (I admit some fault, too) and are now more respectful and understanding of each other. . .

Thanks, LT.

It seems like that's what has to happen, somehow, from the other stories of difficult therapies on here. Sometimes the T can do their part -- sometimes they can't.

Glad it's working out for you.