[susannahsays]

I don't think you are doomed in therapy. I do think equating caring with adjusting boundaries according to what you want is maybe not an accurate measure - and therefore if that's your logic, you may indeed run into problems either colliding with another therapist's boundaries or becoming enmeshed with a therapist who has poor boundaries. I guess it depends on the personal boundaries of the therapists which isn't something you can control - and it also depends on if you are going to push boundaries regardless of where they are (I have no idea, I'm just saying). But that doesn't mean you can't do something differently - or maybe a different therapist and different dynamic, while recreating the same root issue, would be able to help you figure it all out better than he has.

I am puzzled that it sounds like you are classifying him as uncaring now. I would really think about why exactly you don't think he cares anymore when it seemed like you used to feel he did. As in, what specific actions of his made you think this? From the outside looking in, it sounds like you stopped thinking he cared when he refused to provide the reassurance that everything would be ok in that email.

Did you disagree with his assertion that some of the things he's said have felt cruel to you or you have perceived as cruel? You say you've never used that word, but that doesn't mean it's not how you've felt or perceived his words. I kind of thought that's how you felt, but I am not you.

Also, and I really don't intend to upset you, but I wonder if the email or emails he sent in response triggered a fear of abandonment. From what I remember, I think it must have been really hard to read that stuff - and it made you feel so bad you wanted to hurt yourself to escape how bad you were feeling. Obviously, I'm purely speculating here. I just wonder if some part of you feared that he was going to abandon you, so you are withdrawing out of self protection and abandoning him to prevent the "worst" from happening - for him to tell you you're "too much" and he won't work with you. This way, you get to be the one to walk away, which avoids the greater pain of being the one to be abandoned.

[growlycat]

Hi LT
I haven’t been on Pc in awhile but I just got a little caught up. I’m sorry it isn’t working out with this t. No I don’t think you are doomed. And I think these therapist relationship issues are a core part of the therapy not a distraction. I have attachment issues too. I’ve personally found that ts with at least a little psychodynamic training are better with attachment issues than cbt therapists.

Thinking of you!

[unaluna]

Yeah i have no comment. I cant figure out WHAT you want. Or need. Hugs tho.

Hugs, LT.

Hugs LT. There's definitely a middle ground, in my opinion.

[SummerTime12]

LT I don’t think you’re doomed in therapy at all. There are Ts who have healthy boundaries and are straightforward, but also show warmth and flexibility. My t is one of them. I think it’s very strong of you to advocate for yourself and what you need most right now.

LT I agree with SummerTime I also think that it's really strong of you the way you are advocating for yourself. You know what is best for you.

[Lemoncake]

I hope your session with M goes well today.

[SalingerEsme]

I can't wait to hear how your session with M goes, and I hope it is encouraging.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the support! May share more later about my (not really planned) termination session with...ex-Dr. T (?). Saw M today for 90-min intake. Went well, I felt relatively comfortable with him (even shed a couple tears, which never happens in a first session with someone), he seemed to ask some good questions and was quite engaged. Gonna see him again next week, he asked if I would be willing to agree to work together for a month, because that's about how long it can take to see if it's a good fit. So I agreed to try that, but told him still seeing K tomorrow to process ex-Dr. T stuff (it was really too late to cancel on her...). He was OK with that, I said was to help process some of that so I don't bring it all in there. Was making sure at end he's OK working with me, too, because we covered a lot of different stuff today. He is. He's also still under supervision, which honestly, is probably a good thing (he's not that young, he taught high school art before going back to school to be T). And he doesn't really like using email (which actually sort of relieved me--he's saving me from myself!), but OK with phone at times. And what did he say when I left? "Take care." Stupid ex-Dr. T... (No handshake, but I'll ask him if he's open to that in future. And he stood and walked me into the hall. Though I still managed to wander into the kitchen in my attempt to find my way out of the office...

The table next to me had pens, tissues, his card, some tree thing that looked like a temporary tattoo, fidget toys, and...mints. Guess trying to be prepared for any situation? The table by him had what appeared to be some sort of squishy zombie figures.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for all the support! May share more later about my (not really planned) termination session with...ex-Dr. T (?). Saw M today for 90-min intake. Went well, I felt relatively comfortable with him (even shed a couple tears, which never happens in a first session with someone), he seemed to ask some good questions and was quite engaged. Gonna see him again next week, he asked if I would be willing to agree to work together for a month, because that's about how long it can take to see if it's a good fit. So I agreed to try that, but told him still seeing K tomorrow to process ex-Dr. T stuff (it was really too late to cancel on her...). He was OK with that, I said was to help process some of that so I don't bring it all in there. Was making sure at end he's OK working with me, too, because we covered a lot of different stuff today. He is. He's also still under supervision, which honestly, is probably a good thing (he's not that young, he taught high school art before going back to school to be T). And he doesn't really like using email (which actually sort of relieved me--he's saving me from myself!), but OK with phone at times. And what did he say when I left? "Take care." Stupid ex-Dr. T... (No handshake, but I'll ask him if he's open to that in future. And he stood and walked me into the hall. Though I still managed to wander into the kitchen in my attempt to find my way out of the office...

The table next to me had pens, tissues, his card, some tree thing that looked like a temporary tattoo, fidget toys, and...mints. Guess trying to be prepared for any situation? The table by him had what appeared to be some sort of squishy zombie figures.

I'm glad it went well. M sounds cool and understanding. Is he also pyschodynamic?

I'm a huge fan of T's being in supervision and think it's always a good thing to have regardless of if they're just starting out or not..

everyone needs a squishy figure.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

I'm glad it went well. M sounds cool and understanding. Is he also pyschodynamic?

I'm a huge fan of T's being in supervision and think it's always a good thing to have regardless of if they're just starting out or not..

everyone needs a squishy figure.

Thanks, Lemon. On his website, he says he's attachment-based. He plans to talk more about his general therapeutic approach next session. I agree that T's should stay in some sort of supervision throughout, like how the UK model is. And/or be in their own therapy. Ex-DrT said he only really did his own therapy as part of his PhD (that probably should have been a red flag for me...).

[LonesomeTonight]

Oh, and re "squishy figures" my D has "Squishy Cat" a tiny little, well, squishy cat. For a while, she'd talk about her like she was part of the family. Like how we'd all be going out, but Squishy Cat will stay home.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Really glad to hear it sounds positive LT. Attachment focussed is a good sign. My T is and so was one former T, and from my experience that makes a T much more sensitive to issues around the therapeutic relationship, which is what you want because so much comes up and plays out in it. I hope he turns out to be a good fit. I think the fact he doesn't use email might be beneficial for you if it removes the stress around contact. Being able to phone now and then sounds very containing.

[LonesomeTonight]

Some of the, well, lowlights from now-ex-Dr.T Monday.

I started by saying I thought maybe we're at an impasse, how I'm struggling to get past some things he's said lately. He immediately got defensive and said how he didn't say I was being manipulative, that he said what he felt what I did was manipulative. Me: "Actually, that's not what I was referring to..."

I mentioned his saying he'd felt "trapped" when I wrote to him with

Possible trigger:

SUI/SH thoughts a couple weeks before

. T: "I was just being honest about how I felt." Me: "But 'trapped' has a really negative feel to it. It suggests I did that intentionally, when I didn't." T: "OK, we can use 'pressured.' Is that better?" Me: "Yes."

T said he was trying to protect his outside life, such as his time. I said he could have just written a couple sentences back to me (vs. the two long emails he sent). T: "That wouldn't have been enough for you." Me: "Yes it would have. It has been in the past. Or if you said you couldn't write more then, but referred me to crisis line. That would have been better than what you wrote." T: "I said some supportive things in there." Me: "But it was mixed in with more negative things. So it was hard to focus on those." T said something else about just being honest. I said how you could say someone is ugly and then defend that because it's "honest." I forget what he said to that.

I was suddenly like, "Can I just pay now?" T: "Uh, I guess, yeah." He said I didn't have to stand up, he took card from me, put it through, handed it back, and sat back down. Me: "I meant to do that at the beginning and just forgot." T: "OK."

T: "I feel like you think I've been cruel to you." Me: "I've never used that word before. You're projecting that onto me." (I was turning the tables there, as lately he's said I've been projecting onto him.) T: "Well, you seem to think it." Me: "You have been pretty harsh at times lately." T: "You keep projecting things onto me and it bothers me." (I wanted to say, "Yeah, it's called transference," but I resisted.)

Bringing up something from last time, I said I'd pushed for more signs of caring from him because I hadn't felt it from him lately. T: "I'm not the one who should be providing that." I didn't know what to say to that. T: "And if I showed more caring, you'd just want more and more. You'd never be satisfied." I said I disagreed with that. How, I know this isn't about love, but this is just the example that comes to mind. That H and I say "I love you" to each other multiple times a day. So I don't feel the need to ask him "do you love me?" And I try to do the same with D.

I mentioned how I often felt worse after sessions. Particularly those about therapeutic relationship. Forget what he said to that?
I asked if he had thoughts on potential ways for us to move forward. T: "Do you actually want me to talk about those? Because I get the sense that maybe you just want to end." Me: "...Yeah, I think maybe I just need to end, take a break at least."

T started talking about how I'd do with other therapists. T: "You're either going to be unhappy with the next therapeutic relationship because you'll hit up against their boundaries and it won't be enough. Or else you'll end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with Ex-MC. Where it's more like an outside relationship." Me: "But isn't there a big middle ground in there." T: "Maybe?"

He told me that I shouldn't spend much time with a future T talking about stuff with him. Because that's not really what I'm in therapy for. He said he got frustrated that I talked about ex-MC so much in the beginning with him. Me: "But...I came to see you specifically to consult about ex-MC...and told you that. So, of course I was going to talk about him. And I imagine I'll need to process this, about you. Because I've been seeing you twice a week for 2 years." T: "But you shouldn't take much time on it. Because the T might wonder what you're doing there." Me: "...."

He confirmed that he should take me off the schedule for Thursday and that I didn't want to schedule any future sessions. I said he was right. I asked if it was still OK to come back at some point, like if I saw another T for a while, then maybe wanted to continue working with him on some things. T said it was fine. Me: "OK, I know you've said that in the past, just making sure it still applied." T: "Yes." Me: "Or even if it's just for one session, in, say, 3 weeks to talk things through?" T: "Yes. And I'd be surprised if you didn't do that." Me: "OK."

I stood up to throw away my tissues, but first looked at his fish and moved finger in front of her for a second. Me: "Take good care of your fish." T: "I will." I threw away my pile of tissues.

T held out his hand. As I shook it, he said, "Good luck." Me: "Thanks." T: "Be well." Me (kinda mumbling): "You too." Then I left.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Reading that made me feel sad. It's clear you and this T are at an impasse. I think it's really good you're looking at other options, but you know this T will see you again if you so choose.

I felt uncomfortable that he said you shouldn't talk about him with another T. Maybe that was coming from a place of concern for you, that you might get caught up in these dynamics and not deal with the underlying issues or something, but really it's up to you how you use the time with a T. When I was struggling with a T, the next one I consulted told me if I needed to work through my feelings about T with her, and/or go back to see the ex T at some point, that was okay. She wasn't a great fit for me, but I did appreciate her making clear it was okay to talk about my ex T.

It kind of reads as if this T has given all he can and you're just not connecting with each other. It's not your fault and to some extent not his, although he has said things that can be construed as hurtful, the alliance just isn't helping you at the moment. It seems your T knows this.

I'm sorry you're going through it.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I asked if he had thoughts on potential ways for us to move forward. T: "Do you actually want me to talk about those? Because I get the sense that maybe you just want to end."

This was the part that broke my heart. With my own T's, T3 was first to bring up termination (actually all of my T's except current T has been first to bring up termination) but with T3 I had gone in there knowing I was going to terminate but not knowing how. When T3 brought it up before I did in session, I just felt like such a failure. Not saying you do, or that you should, just that is how I felt even though I wanted to terminate with T3. It was a weird mix of feelings. When I read that set of sentences above it broke my heart because it just felt like maybe he was giving up, or giving you permission to give up? IDK. HUGS, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope it comes out better for you, whomever you end up working with.

[JaneTennison1]

He is so arrogant and it really shows here. there might be a few good points but overall it was just about his ego. I hope you will do well with a new T and I hope you dont get too distracted with that relationship to deal with some very real issues you have. Its tempting to repeat a cycle until you "get it right" but maybe try a new cycle where you can actually heal.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

T: "And if I showed more caring, you'd just want more and more. You'd never be satisfied." I said I disagreed with that.

Don't you think, though, from his perspective, that this is exactly what did kind of happen over the course of the relationship? I mean, I can't accuse you of theoretically never being satisfied. I guess what I'm getting at is there would be something you felt you needed, he wouldn't be too terribly enthused, but would wind up providing it. Take the stone, for example (I can think of others that I interpret as caring - that is just one).

It sounded like he started getting a bit fed up with feeling like he needed to prove he cared beyond what he had already done, to be completely honest, so he started getting a bit resistant when called on to prove himself - see the whole episode where he refused to stand on command. I think his pulling back (and probably other behavior from him around that time apart from not standing) was triggering to you and caused you to escalate your demands that he prove he cared and that this proof be exhibited in the specific way you wanted (otherwise it meant he didn't care).

Hence also his reasoning that you'll either hit up against a boundary or get enmeshed with future therapists.

Sounds like he was terribly frustrated in your last session at least and it's hard for me to believe that happened all of a sudden - so I blame him for not figuring out what to do about it before things came to a head. I don't know what to make of him telling you not to talk to other therapists about him, but I don't like it. Based on your reports, I don't know why he would have said such a thing. I suspect now that your relationship has devolved and he feels victimized by you, he is perhaps looking back at the discussions you two had about ex MC and is fearful that a future therapist will judge him the same way he came to judge ex MC. After all, he won't be there to defend himself and he seems to acknowledge on some level a belief of his that you are manipulative. Regardless, his advice on that doesn't make him look good and I don't care for his shaming remark about the time you spent talking about ex-MC. He might have a point, but if he was trying to be helpful, he would have brought it up at the time rather than when he has ulterior motives.

[ArtleyWilkins]

He didn’t say don’t talk about him. He said don’t spend too much time talking about him. In other words, don’t spend so much of your time in therapy talking about therapists. I don’t disagree with that. It does seem like an inordinate amount of your therapy time is focused on the therapy relationship rather than staying focused on yourself.