[ScarletPimpernel]

I agree that people can be manipulative. I also am the type to own up to my own manipulation. I've actually learned to call myself out on it. Even my last email to L I admitted that I wanted to create drama in order to keep up the higher intensity of both the relationship and of the support. But I didn't act on it.

I still don't see how having thoughts and expressing thoughts in emails equals manipulative. I do it all the time. Was LT's email manipulative? I'm not going to judge that. But expressing her thoughts and feelings in an email context, even in an email that might be manipulative, does not mean that that part was manipulative. And Dr. T couldn't see that. Instead he generalized the whole email, got defensive, and instead of helping LT, sort of offended her by labeling the behaviour in a negative way. Why couldn't Dr. T, in return, talk about what LT is experiencing. Why did it have to be about him. A good T will not put themselves into the mix. They should know what their own issues are and keep that out of the relationship. And when it does enter the relationship, he should have owned up to it and not gotten defensive.

[Echos Myron redux]

I haven't read all the responses, but I saw some people saying you shouldn't talk about Dr T "too much". Also a distinction between Dr T stuff and "your issues". LT, what happened with Dr T IS your issues. You have repeating relational trauma with therapists and this is exactly something to be discussed in therapy for however long it takes. It was abundantly clear from the start that DrT didnt see the value in talking about MC and it doesnt surprise me his saying that now. In fact his discomfort with the discussion is probably part of why little progress has been made on this pattern, and his lack of awareness has played a role in its repetition. He has consistently shown that work on the relationship isn't his thing. So why would work on the previous relationship have any meaning or value to him. You have to remember the advice he gave you comes from a particular modality viewpoint that rejects the value of the therapeutic relationship in the work. He is overlaying your needs with a) his own opinion and b) very likely his own discomfort with being discussed by you. He doesnt get to control what you say in your new therapy. Dont let him influence it. When you are talking about your previous therapy, in my view, you are getting to the very heart of your issues, not neglecting them, because therapy, for many people is a microcosm of what goes on outside therapy. Examining the relational dynamics in therapy can be rich and healing work. Besides which, you are hurting right now and you need to go to therapy to talk about the things that are hurting. Dont put any restrictions on what you "should" be talking about. Trust yourself. You will talk less and less about DrT as time progresses because the talking will be healing (assuming this therapist doesn't behave like DrT did).

I just want to say, when I went to T, I talked about T1 pretty consistently for eighteen months. EIGHTEEN MONTHS. I rarely mention him now but I needed that processing time. It was very healing and I think saved me from repeating the same pattern again. Also, my T heard about the things that were difficult for me with T1 and made damn sure not to repeat them. He showed sensitivity and understanding, and that's why the outcome was different. This is why I have been saying for so long that DrT is not right for you. His style absolutely does not suit someone with repeating relational trauma. I really hope this new one provides sensitivity to your needs, explicit boundaries that don't randomly change for no reason, an understanding of attachment and as much space as you need to discuss DrT.

[SummerTime12]

I really believe you’ll find the right T for you, LT. I don’t know exactly how to put this into words, but I feel what you want and need is not so complicated as it has been made to seem. You want a t who will care about you and tell you that they care. That’s not a lot to ask and to me, doesn’t indicate that you’re asking for more and more and won’t be satisfied. I think the only reason you asked for certain acts from ex dr. T was because he wouldn’t just say the damn words even though he did care.

I am also one to want reassurance that my T cares. He has told me many times that he does, and also shows it in different ways. He would never hesitate to say it, like if I asked him “do you care about me?” He would say “yes” and elaborate, and then he’d ask the questions about why I asked and all that good stuff. To refuse to answer just feels like playing some sort of weird power struggle game and doesn’t seem therapeutic. There are many times my t says things that could be taken 2 ways—one way indicating he cares and the other way indicating he doesn’t—and during those times, I am able to reassure myself that he meant it in a good way and still cares. But I’m only able to provide myself with that reassurance because he so willingly expresses his care at other times and doesn’t hold back just because he can. I know if I ask him he will tell me what he feels, and therefore I don’t feel the constant need to ask him for proof. Idk if any of this made sense.. I feel like I had a specific concept or thought in my mind but couldn’t word it properly.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

But (this is a record number of "buts" in a post, I think), it may also be different for a female T saying that to a heterosexual female client vs. a male T saying that to a female. Like less worry about it potentially being misconstrued. K did give me some good language to use in talking to M, like saying how transference tends to come up for me, but that I also understand that he has boundaries. She said the word "boundaries" suggests he doesn't need to be concerned.

R has told me more times than I can remember that he cares about me.
It's just something that is and I think it's perfectly okay asking M whatever questions you have without thinking it can all be twisted. A T with attachment training will get it.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I think not discussing other relationships with therapists or being careful with wording so a new T doesn't get scared is the wrong way to go. If it were me, I'd rather figure out early that a T is uncomfortable with me getting attached and wanting to discuss our relationship at lengths. The way I act with my T is similar to how I do with other people. Though with my T, it's far more pronounced than with other people and he definitely gets a far worse version of me than most others. Sometimes he has to listen to things that are almost certainly uncomfortable for him, for example I'm pretty sure he'd rather not discuss his own death for an hour. But to me it's something important and I need to be able to talk through such things. If a T can't handle that, it wouldn't be the right T for me.

Similarly with this new guy. Either you censor yourself for all of your sessions, in that case I'd see it as a waste of money. In addition, it'd probably not work, at some point there's gonna be something about the relationship that needs discussing, unless you do something like pure CBT maybe. Or you are up front about having had some issues with other Ts. That way a new guy isn't surprised when it happens and you can tell whether working through such problems would even be an option.

[Xynesthesia2]

LT, have you considered taking a break from therapy altogether? Not seeing any for a while? I kinda agree with the comment above that you seem to have relational trauma from therapy and therapists; maybe it started somewhere in your childhood but it's just accumulating with the Ts you choose. It all seems incredibly stressful. If anything sounds being trapped, that is... in my view at least. Stopping it and resolving it may or may never come from therapy - you can easily spend your life "trapped" in all this, going to therapy, from T to T, and your negative impulses and coping methods will not go away. Or you could decide to take a few months away from all these things, at least in practical reality (I doubt you would stop thinking about it anytime soon, but maybe with time) - see how that goes. At least then you would really attempt to change something. This way, just finding yet another T (however different they might turn out, each one is different)... on top other older men who, you know, are your sore spot... I don't know.

There have been a few people on this forum who reported very painful, obsessive, unsatisfying, traumatic experiences with therapists and then tremendous relief when they could finally break free from the whole thing. There have also been some who reported a painful experience with one bad T and relief/resolution with another, better one. The thing is, you seem to get a lot of stress and never real satisfaction from your therapy experiences, at least the ones you talked about on PC. It is more than just one T, one person. You might think now I am suggesting the same as Dr T, that you will keep ending up in a form of the same... and maybe I am. I think no one can accurately predict that, the only thing we can say more confidently is if you give yourself a break from engaging in these things for a while, that has a bigger probability to snap you out of this chain. Then you could reconsider everything with a bit of distance. Or how about maybe finding a group - you seem to like talking with a group here. If it turns out you absolutely cannot cope on your own and really need individual therapy, can always go back... it is not a big risk. But this way you may be giving yourself only some superficial, temporary chances IMO, given your therapy history, not just one isolated, unique experience. If you don't have similar problems in everyday relationships, then what's really the point of "working on it" in therapy? Then it seems to bring out and reinforce a (maybe) latent problem that you can actually manage reasonably well in general outside of therapy.

If you really want to keep though though, I think it is definitely the best to choose someone who has demonstrated training and some real interest in attachment and whatever you want to focus on. Dr T didn't really seem to have the qualifications and very much interest, some curiosity yes, but he resisted it because this thing probably just did not click with his interests and therapy philosophy. Maybe someone psychoanalytical - they would be much more likely to prioritize and encourage the kinds of explorations you seem to want to do, and you obviously like to dissect relational things yourself seemingly endlessly.

[comrademoomoo]

T started talking about how I'd do with other therapists. T: "You're either going to be unhappy with the next therapeutic relationship because you'll hit up against their boundaries and it won't be enough. Or else you'll end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with Ex-MC. Where it's more like an outside relationship."

Huh. I hadn't realised he is a mind-reader, fortune-teller, and time-traveller who has intricate knowledge of all other therapists and their approaches - including the therapist you have yet to choose. A Cassandra of the psychotherapeutic world! I had quite underestimated the fellow.

[stopdog]

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

My objection to him saying that she should avoid any belabored review of their relationship with subsequent therapists was that it did not sound like it was intended in a spirit of helpfulness. The evidence for this is in the comment he made about the future therapist wondering why LT was there and about him having been frustrated over her discussing ex-MC so much (and who is he to be frustrated by that, anyway?). Those two comments were unnecessary. He of all people is well aware that LT worries about what people are thinking and I think it was a roundabout way of suggesting not only did he have thoughts he may have denied to her face, but that future therapists will do the same thing. I think it was an exploitation of LT's insecurity. Again, those claims were likely true, but the way they were made and the timing doesn't reflect well on him because it was done maliciously, in my opinion.

Yes, it is well worth considering all the time that has been invested discussing therapists and therapeutic relationships and what, if anything, is gained by that. But I don't think that was the motivation behind his words. That was an afterthought.

Thanks, Susannah. Your comment on "not only did he have thoughts he may have denied to her face" is one that's particularly bothering me about him. (Not your comment--I mean I had a similar thought.) Because one of his big things with me was that he'd be honest and open with me, and that if something was bothering him, he'd tell me at the time, before it became a big thing. Yet this seems like it was bothering him for a long time (I haven't even talked about ex-MC much in the past year or so). So it makes me wonder what else had been bothering him that he didn't mention.

Plus he talked to me about how I was grieving ex-MC and that it could be a long process, which seemed very validating at the time. Now I feel I'm reframing everything he's said...

And of course I hate his suggesting that the same will happen with another T. Because now I have all these doubts and worries in my mind--well, they'd have been there to some extent anyway. But his comment just intensified them--how is that supposed to help me? Really, many of his comments Monday: How were they therapeutic? How were they supposed to help me? Some did just feel malicious. Like a spurned lover being like, "Good luck finding someone else who will put up with you like I did." It felt personal.

I mean, maybe he was hurt that he put a lot of time in with me and I left in the way that I did. Or frustrated with himself that he wasn't able to help me more lately. But he shouldn't have taken it out on me. Because like you said, he knows my insecurities and vulnerabilities. And that as recently as a couple weeks ago, I was

Possible trigger:

suicidal

. he could have been much kinder in what he said. Especially considering he knew (and said recently) how important he is (was) to me, even though he said that part in a negative way, too. He shouldn't take on clients with insecure attachment issues...(and I was very up front about those in the beginning).

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

Thank you for this information.

I wonder if people said they didnt "understand" her Or would that be some other goddess?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Thank you for this information.

I wonder if people said they didnt "understand" her Or would that be some other goddess?

Well, in the Agamemnon, the first play of the Oresteia, there’s clearly a language barrier, but the Trojans, her own people, refused to believe her till the city was burning down around their ears. And even then they were probably too busy fighting to think, oh yeah, Cassandra said this was gonna happen.

LT, it’s an obnoxious thing to hear and I think he said it from spite. That doesn’t mean he didn’t identify a pattern you may have about boundaries correctly. I’d just keep it in mind and check in with yourself about it occasionally.

[blackocean]

Maybe this is an issue that will recur but I think therapists should expect certain clients to push up against boundaries and know how to deal with that effectively bc it is something to treat

[unaluna]

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

Oh, I know there's a pattern, especially with ex-Dr.T. It's partly what led me to be like "OK, I can't keep doing this." I know I had a pattern with ex-MC, too, but it was a bit different in nature. The number of conflicts, ruptures, mini-ruptures, whatever you want to call them with ex-Dr.T seemed really high to me. Especially within 2019. I just don't feel like a therapeutic relationship should be that exhausting. yeah, I know part of it was me, but part of it was him, too.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by blackocean

Maybe this is an issue that will recur but I think therapists should expect certain clients to push up against boundaries and know how to deal with that effectively bc it is something to treat

Yes, ex-MC had told me how it's really common, and very similar to how kids test their parents (from when they're young to teens). To me, it seemed like an opportunity for him to work with me on the source of that. And I said multiple times that it wasn't just about him, that it was a bigger thing. But he seemed to insist that it was mostly about him. So I'd get kinda stuck. Like he didn't want to make therapy about him so much, but then he'd say my reactions were about him...

[LonesomeTonight]

I will add that, with the exception of a couple times when I misunderstood something or he was unclear (like, text to schedule, but he left out the part about "don't explain why you want an extra session"), I did follow the rules. He agreed that I followed his email rules (and phone and texting ones). *He* chose to make some of his boundaries weaker, like opting not to charge me for certain emails he normally would have charged for (or charging me less than the time he spent on it--and this wasn't me insisting, except once over a misunderstanding), responding to an email at an hour later than he normally would have, etc. And it could be said that giving me extra sessions pretty much whenever I requested was sorta loose boundaries. Letting me come in a day earlier and switching around sessions. Giving me a stone even if he didn't feel comfortable doing so. Etc.

In other words, it wasn't just me...he could have opted to be firmer in boundaries and push back more early on. But didn't. Well, except with a couple things. (Let me go with this thought, I need to be able to feel anger at him and not put everything on myself. Yes, I played a role, but so did he.)

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

What if Narcissus and Cassandra had a child together, and their offspring's prophecies were contaminated by a distorted vision of self?

[unaluna]

You did that with mc at the end too, accusing him of having too loose boundaries. Maybe you are being overly aggressive when you are under the influence, and neither you nor the t is realizing thats what is going on? Then afterwards you rightly innocently disavow, but the damage has been done.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux

What if Narcissus and Cassandra had a child together, and their offspring's prophecies were contaminated by a distorted vision of self?

Isnt that me?

[comrademoomoo]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

... Hence my sarcasm. This is how he seems to perceive himself; as the truth-teller whom LT won't believe. And to clarify - Cassandra could only describe negative prophecies so she could not predict whole versions of the future.