[unaluna]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

... Hence my sarcasm. This is how he seems to perceive himself; as the truth-teller whom LT won't believe. And to clarify - Cassandra could only describe negative prophecies so she could not predict whole versions of the future.

Nobody remembers the good stuff anyway. I read that in a book, which quoted it from a book.

[comrademoomoo]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Nobody remembers the good stuff anyway. I read that in a book, which quoted it from a book.

I knew it was a risky post, but I had to fulfill my destiny, like Hercules. Sarcasm + mythological references = disgruntled Americans.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by unaluna

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

I knew it was a risky post, but I had to fulfill my destiny, like Hercules. Sarcasm + mythological references = disgruntled Americans.

Hey i was just proud of myself for remembering something i read this week in a book!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

LT - Remember when ex-T left me? T never told me to not talk about ex-T. In fact, not only did she split our initial session half about intake and half about ex-T, but she told me anytime I wanted to talk about ex-T I could. And I still can even with L. Hell, I can talk to L about T and to T about L. There are no limits of what I can and can't talk about and for how long either. I think I talked to T about ex-T for almost 2 years straight. And thanks to her for doing that, I'm much better off.

If a T is going to limit you on what you can and cannot talk about (minus personal information about them) then that's a red flag. You should be able to talk about whatever and whoever you need to so long as it aids in your healing. And I think being in a 2 year relationship with Dr. T requires processing what happened.

Thanks, Scarlet. I agree with this. I think I need to process it. I certainly needed to process the stuff with ex-MC. I think what I may do on Monday is go in and tell M that I think I need to process what happened with Dr.T more before I can really move forward in therapy with him. He'd mentioned wanting to learn more about my marriage in the next session, but I hope he'll understand if I want to talk about this, as it's the more pressing thing in my mind right now. If he doesn't understand or says we need to address other things first...maybe he's not the right choice for me, at least not right now. I certainly understand how with the intake session, he'd need to learn the basics of my background. And we got through a lot of information and discussed some of it. So hopefully we can work on the ex-Dr.T stuff a bit.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Oh, I know there's a pattern, especially with ex-Dr.T. It's partly what led me to be like "OK, I can't keep doing this." I know I had a pattern with ex-MC, too, but it was a bit different in nature. The number of conflicts, ruptures, mini-ruptures, whatever you want to call them with ex-Dr.T seemed really high to me. Especially within 2019. I just don't feel like a therapeutic relationship should be that exhausting. yeah, I know part of it was me, but part of it was him, too.

I think there’s still a broader general pattern that links the two. (I’m talking about your part, we can’t hypothesize anything about Dr. T’s part because we don’t have his history. Plus you can only control your part.)

When MC became like Dr. T, the final rupture happened.

When Dr. T refused to be like MC time and again, even when you begged him because you felt sh, the final rupture happened.

Given that most people, wherever they start on the range, will become Dr. T over time in response to having their boundaries pushed, and they may be nice about it or not, that’s the pattern I think should be kept in mind.

Sure, therapists can expect certain clients to push boundaries. That doesn’t mean they have to accept or tolerate it.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

Although we never see therapists the same way - I kind of agree.
I don't think anyone is advocating to stay with this particular guy. But I don't see him as doing anything out of what he openly admitted was his way of being a therapist. I don't even see what he said as being mean. That is not the same as saying a client needs to stay with him - choose a different sort and see if it comes out differently. People do what they are going to do until they, for whatever reason, decide to do something different.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

That's a good point, thanks. It's like he let me reenact the patterns, but then didn't have the insight to go along with it that could help move me forward and get out of the pattern. He just ended up playing into it, likely subconsciously. Then it felt like he was suddenly like, "I'm not playing into this anymore" (like starting with the standing thing), but it's not like we'd done work to get me to move past it. So of course his stopping it hurt.

He can say to me I need to not be looking for him for care (as he mentioned Monday), but if I've been doing that for 2 years...And there were times he said it's OK to feel a connection and to feel attached to him, even a bit dependent. Then suddenly he's going on about how he shouldn't be such an important person in my life (that was the session before the last one)...And Monday, that he's not who I should be getting caring from. It just felt like a sudden shift, without the work in between to prepare me for it. Yeah, I've gotten better at some coping stuff, expanding my social network, talking to H about stuff more, but still...and then for him to say I'm going to have the same issues with any other T...

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

I know it's pointless to debate with you, but it was more the intensity of his reaction to some things lately. Saying he didn't want to be controlled or micromanaged. Saying he felt trapped. Saying he felt what I said was manipulative. Saying he was frustrated with me. So much of that is about *him* and his feelings. Not like, "Oh I wonder what's going on with LT here, let's examine this." It's "How does it affect me?" (referring to Dr. T). If this was a regular relationship, like a friendship, a marriage, family--certainly, he should be sharing his feelings. But it's not. I've often read that part of what you pay a therapist for, besides their time/expertise, is for them to keep their feelings out of it. (Ex-MC often said I didn't have to worry about his feelings, for example, and would say he felt he did something wrong when I did care. Ex-T would say I didn't need to worry about her. K said similarly.) Otherwise, what is it beyond a paid friendship?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I know it's pointless to debate with you, but it was more the intensity of his reaction to some things lately. Saying he didn't want to be controlled or micromanaged. Saying he felt trapped. Saying he felt what I said was manipulative. Saying he was frustrated with me. So much of that is about *him* and his feelings. Not like, "Oh I wonder what's going on with LT here, let's examine this." It's "How does it affect me?" (referring to Dr. T). If this was a regular relationship, like a friendship, a marriage, family--certainly, he should be sharing his feelings. But it's not. I've often read that part of what you pay a therapist for, besides their time/expertise, is for them to keep their feelings out of it. (Ex-MC often said I didn't have to worry about his feelings, for example, and would say he felt he did something wrong when I did care. Ex-T would say I didn't need to worry about her. K said similarly.) Otherwise, what is it beyond a paid friendship?

I’ve said this before, and perhaps it is pointless to repeat it, but I just don’t see why he shouldn’t be sharing his feelings about your behavior. Info did, once, not long after I started with her—I was angry and took it out on her over email. She didn’t blame me for the anger—she knew it was about other therapists more than her—but she told me she felt attacked when I expressed anger in a certain way, and we discussed it and worked out how I could express that anger without her feeling attacked (because that might keep her from being helpful) and yet I could get it out. So it was still about me.

It helped in real life. And the fact that she would stand up for herself gave me some respect for her.

So I know you’re hurt by what he said and I think he should have expressed some of the things he said differently, but I think he was within his rights to say them without it becoming all about him, and I think even when he spoke from his perspective it was still about you.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

LT at the end of the day if the dynamic isn't working for you, you have every right to move on. Each therapist is different and the dynamic will be different - you may well find someone who is less triggering where you can really get into your emotions and feel safe enough to move forward. I saw a T who often told me how I 'made' her feel and it used to lead to terrible ruptures, with me also feeling as though she was making it all about her. There is a fine line in therapy for when that sort of thing truly benefits the client and when it causes more problems. Eventually I did move on and as you know current T is amazing, so safe and compassionate, and although she does disclose certain things she is always 100% focused on me. Funnily enough, the difficulties I was experiencing with the former T have never re-energed in the same way as that particular relationship was causing a lot of it!

[Xynesthesia2]

I'm sure many would disagree with me on this, but I seriously doubt any therapist or therapy experience involves keeping the Ts feelings and personal tendencies out of it in very major ways. I personally believe it is more about compatibility (or lack thereof) in those tendencies between the two people - just like in any relationship. You like to include attachment-related things in your therapy a lot and attachment styles... From all I could gather, Dr T may have avoidant streaks, maybe not even a little. That might also explain why he is not so interested in working on that with clients and becomes overwhelmed and resistant quite easily. I think the combination of anxious/preoccupied and dismissive/avoidant people is famously challenging and leads to eventual break down of the relationship (both personal and professional) very often. I can also speak for this from my own personal experiences with various people (I am a bit on the dismissive/avoidant side) and easily react in similar ways to your Dr T when I am pushed and challenged in similar ways. Now much less than when I was younger because I am much more aware of these things, more secure, and actually quite interested in it. But still. The way I see it (with my own bias, I am sure) is that this kind of clashing combo might have played a role in the evolution of your last therapy. Perhaps ex-MC was more a bit like you... So I guess the best match, for you, would be someone really secure - that tendency would also become present in your therapy, but affect it differently. The question is how to foresee that or test for that in interviews and from very superficial, initial contact? I think it is quite difficult... not sure what superhuman, mythical ability would be sufficient for predicting that

[JaneTennison1]

how much of ex dr t caring was a projection and how much was real? I wonder sometimes as a lot seemed to be that he sounded caring or felt caring but not an actual thing that changed or that he did. Sometimes he would give in to what you wanted, was that caring? Sharing how he felt about you with you? Always seemed too much but it's not any different from the stone discussion really. If that method suddenly doesnt work the. it's time to move on, but from everything you described it doesnt sound like he changed.

It sounds like your tolerance of hin changed, maybe your willingness to participate in this cycle?

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I know it's pointless to debate with you, but it was more the intensity of his reaction to some things lately. Saying he didn't want to be controlled or micromanaged. Saying he felt trapped. Saying he felt what I said was manipulative. Saying he was frustrated with me. So much of that is about *him* and his feelings. Not like, "Oh I wonder what's going on with LT here, let's examine this." It's "How does it affect me?" (referring to Dr. T). If this was a regular relationship, like a friendship, a marriage, family--certainly, he should be sharing his feelings. But it's not. I've often read that part of what you pay a therapist for, besides their time/expertise, is for them to keep their feelings out of it. (Ex-MC often said I didn't have to worry about his feelings, for example, and would say he felt he did something wrong when I did care. Ex-T would say I didn't need to worry about her. K said similarly.) Otherwise, what is it beyond a paid friendship?

You wanted him to be open and honest with you. When he wasn't, you persisted until he was. When he was honest and open with you, you got angry. If I remember correctly
you said he said he told you more than other clients because he knew you would read into things. Now you are upset because he told you his feelings and they hurt you. So did you only want him to tell you the truth or what you wanted to hear? Do you think that is what he meant by feeling trapped?

[zoiecat]

I agree with many of the comments. I know that you are hurting LT, and I know that you need to feel cared for. You also said that you don't have that problem with regular friend, only with male authority figures.. If this is the case, why not consider just stopping therapy for awhile so you don't have to suffer. It doesn't sound like you have any other male authority figures in your life accept your dad. I am not sure how much you actually worked on this relationship with T. You only seem to share your relationship issues in dealing with your MC and T.

I noticed a pattern that you were satisfied in session or emails when T agreed with you on any issue. He always said he would be honest with you but when he was honest and it wasn't what you wanted to hear if was very upsetting for you causing you to try to persuade him to your side. I guess what you really need to decide is do you want to only hear what you want to hear, or do you want to hear the truth and use it as a step toward personal growth and improvement. Therapy involves the client to change; change their thoughts, actions, or ways in which they respond to the unavoidable difficulties in life.

I totally understand your wanting to start with a new T but I also agree that you need to review and accept your actions that contributed to the destruction of the relationship. Repeating more of the same is eventually only going to result in more of the same. I don't really think Dr. T had tight boundaries as he usually gave in and did what you wanted (stone, standing, etc). Although there may be someone further in the middle, I wonder if it would be more helpful for you to see someone with even tighter boundaries to allow yourself to learn to accept no from someone who will hold their boundaries but not get frustrated when you keep pushing.

Personally, I want a T to tell me the truth. I frequently ask my T for an honest answer and it does appear that he tell me exactly what he is thinking. It is not always the answer I want to hear but it allows me to learn how to deal with a disagreement in a safe environment with someone who will not hurt me. I also have to deal with disagreements with people in my real life. I need to learn how to do handle these situations in the real world, I need to learn how to accept that not everything will go my way and people will not always agree with me. I know that everyone is different but for me, that is what therapy is about. Learning to calm myself, increase my distress tolerance and develop skills successfully relate to all kinds of people on a daily basis.

Everyone can give you their opinion and experiences but in the end only you can come up with the answer. Only you can determine what you are looking for and your goals are for therapy. Now that you are between therapists it is the perfect time to make these decisions and choose the T that will help you meet those goals.

[susannahsays]

I keep thinking it sounds like you're idealizing other therapists - including ex-MC, which feels slightly surreal to me as an onlooker.

[Out There]

Sorry you're hurting LT. I admire you for being open with what's happened/ happening and what your feelings are , but perhaps you can see the patterns emerging from this with the input from other people ( not that everything is your pattern by any means ). I didn't have a good feeling from your T saying you shouldn't talk about this with other T's , things need to be talked about as long as they need to be talked about , even if it's years , I certainly did this and needed this. I was taken by Echos's input on other things overlaying your needs , like people's opinions ( from everywhere ) I've noticed this in my life too , and it's something I've started to look at.

[ElectricManatee]

I'm guessing a lot of LT's struggles stem from invalidation developmentally, so more invalidation isn't going to help anything. You can only stay and work it out if the other person is up to the task. This is why a lot of people end up having to become estranged from their subpar parents rather than work the original problems through with them. It isn't really running away if the parent is hurting you and refusing to truly, deeply understand your perspective before they even think about bringing their own feelings into it.

Healing developmental trauma is way different from handling normal adult relationships, which is why people ask therapists -- not friends or partners -- to help them do it. Yes, you likely develop interpersonal skills along the way, but that isn't where you start. (There are a ton of parallels with healthy parenting here. Is it helpful to guide your kid away from doing something that is likely to annoy others? Sure. Is it helpful to share the full breadth and depth of your white-hot irritation in the moment without considering the impact it might have on your kid? Definitely not.)

I think the boundaries conversation is fascinating because it sounds like Dr. T really broke the fourth wall in a dramatic fashion in the last few sessions. Part of him getting sucked into the old pattern is that he "allowed" LT to get under his skin and then turned it around and blamed her for his irritation. Total reenactment in the guise of him being "honest."

I've talked to my T before about how she handles the more challenging aspects of clients' reactions and testing, and she had some really clear things that she does or knows about herself to keep her from going to that place of overwhelm or annoyance. She basically won't let the client blow up the relationship. But that comes from a lot of training, supervision, self-care, and personal therapy, and a good sense of how she personally can be most effective as a therapist. Hopefully there is a good trauma-knowledgeable therapist out there who can do this kind of thing for you, LT. Validation is not bad when it's wielded by somebody who can ultimately work alongside you to help change your patterns.

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I'm guessing a lot of LT's struggles stem from invalidation developmentally, so more invalidation isn't going to help anything. You can only stay and work it out if the other person is up to the task. This is why a lot of people end up having to become estranged from their subpar parents rather than work the original problems through with them. It isn't really running away if the parent is hurting you and refusing to truly, deeply understand your perspective before they even think about bringing their own feelings into it.

Healing developmental trauma is way different from handling normal adult relationships, which is why people ask therapists -- not friends or partners -- to help them do it. Yes, you likely develop interpersonal skills along the way, but that isn't where you start. (There are a ton of parallels with healthy parenting here. Is it helpful to guide your kid away from doing something that is likely to annoy others? Sure. Is it helpful to share the full breadth and depth of your white-hot irritation in the moment without considering the impact it might have on your kid? Definitely not.)

I think the boundaries conversation is fascinating because it sounds like Dr. T really broke the fourth wall in a dramatic fashion in the last few sessions. Part of him getting sucked into the old pattern is that he "allowed" LT to get under his skin and then turned it around and blamed her for his irritation. Total reenactment in the guise of him being "honest."

I've talked to my T before about how she handles the more challenging aspects of clients' reactions and testing, and she had some really clear things that she does or knows about herself to keep her from going to that place of overwhelm or annoyance. She basically won't let the client blow up the relationship. But that comes from a lot of training, supervision, self-care, and personal therapy, and a good sense of how she personally can be most effective as a therapist. Hopefully there is a good trauma-knowledgeable therapist out there who can do this kind of thing for you, LT. Validation is not bad when it's wielded by somebody who can ultimately work alongside you to help change your patterns.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes x1000