[tomatenoir]

My therapy experience was very positive until my last two sessions. For about six weeks after we ended, I was very upset by my former therapist's actions (or lack thereof). So I focused on what I had actually learned and tried to tease it out of the connection I'd once felt with someone. I've largely been able to do this, though I still think about him occasionally and then get very angry.

So this got me thinking: would my therapy have been better if I'd simply not formed a connection in the first place? Is anybody in this forum able to keep a wall up between them and their therapist and still make progress? And if so, how do you share personal things and not develop a bond with the person you're sharing them with? Is it possible to discuss really intimate things with someone and not develop a feeling of closeness?

I feel like most people can compartmentalise their relationships much better than I can. I start out very professional at every job I have, but I inevitably become a little too chummy and overly helpful to my colleagues. If I'm not getting chummy with someone my only other factory setting is to completely ignore them (which I use on people I find obnoxious, dumb, or cruel). But I wouldn't bother seeing a therapist I'd want to ignore!

So there must be some middle ground I can't get to! Can you form attachments, but break them off and feel nothing at the drop of a hat? Is this possible in a therapy relationship? Can you treat your life in a professional way in therapy?

Looking for different perspectives and experiences.

[stopdog]

I suppose that depends upon what you want and why you hired a therapist. I never found a point to it but I don't tend to get too chummy with people in a work setting or with people I hire for a service, so my approach might not work for someone else

[piggy momma]

The research is overwhelming that the greatest predictor of successful therapy outcome is the client-therapist rapport. That is to say, if you don’t have a good relationship with your therapist there will likely not be a good outcome.

Research aside, I could not work with a therapist that I wasn’t comfortable with and didn’t have a good relationship with. At least not for very long. With my current T, I will be honest in saying it took me 14 months to trust him and while we don’t agree on everything, we can at least talk about everything. There is definitely going to be the “getting to know you” phase in every relationship, and you may not choose to divulge too much really personal info at this time, but the relationship should show continuous growth and movement forward so you can get to the point where you do have that solid relationship.

My two cents.

[unaluna]

Tomatenoir - yeah me too. Im like a stray puppy, wont somebody take me home? No boundaries. Then i follow anybody home indiscriminately, then bite the hand that feeds me.

It can really mess up your adulthood. Your parents have like 20 years to give you a good start, give or take 5 or 10 of 15 years. Otherwise you spend the next 30 years just trying to stay afloat, wondering when where and how everybody but you learned how to swim.

So you take swimming lessons - aka t - but what you could learn in one summer week as a kid takes years as an adult.

"Form a connection?" Hey, learn to swim from t however you can, because getting swimming lessons from miscellaneous coworkers is probably not the best idea.

[Salmon77]

Depends on what you're going to therapy for, probably. I imagine that in short term therapy the relationship isn't very important.

It was probably over a year before I felt attached to my T at all, and I did feel like I made progress during that time.

Definitely depends on what you are looking for in therapy.

I had one therapist a long time ago that I felt close to, trusted deeply and was able to make a lot of progress with. The relationship just worked and was drama-free. Minimal transference and felt very person-to-person. At that place in my life it was helpful but not consuming.

Last therapist - extreme dependence, withholding, transference, drama, obsession. Changed my view on closeness in therapy. Too risky.

With current EMDR therapist - I made it clear from the start that I needed space and professionalism since I was recovering from therapy trauma. I am emotionally vulnerable (cry openly in session, share everything) but it’s from a place where I am in my own emotions and expressing and releasing vs connecting. It’s not about him or our relationship but feels safe and healing. He could terminate tomorrow and I wouldn’t miss a beat picking up with someone new.

I guess the answer is - it depends on what you can tolerate.

[nottrustin]

Great question. I am still trying to figure this out myself. I don't think I can be that vulnerable without some type of a connection. I am trying to find a balance having the connection to do good work without being so close as I was with T

[Omers]

I have tried not connecting but have not gotten anything out of those TSC. My current T and I have a super strong connection (in part due to transference but that is starting to go away and the bond is even stronger). The way he is with me he is the first T I am not worried about the bond with. Yes, I will grieve when we terminate (but it will most likely be in a year or more) and I am sure that I will be in a place where I am able to fill the needs he currently fills. I also know that it will be a decision made together and gradually. The way he works, for him to terminate before I was ready or in a way that would leave me hurting/angry would be to undermine everything he is working so hard to put in place.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

Is anybody in this forum able to keep a wall up between them and their therapist and still make progress? And if so, how do you share personal things and not develop a bond with the person you're sharing them with? Is it possible to discuss really intimate things with someone and not develop a feeling of closeness?

I quite like my T, and don't want her to hate me, but I don't have this attachment with her that many people on the forum seem to have with their T's--either positive or negative. I rely on her to help me through tough times, but I also know that is part of her job to do that, though she does tell me she cares.

If I were to lose her tomorrow, I'd be sad for sure, but I think I could move onto another T at some point.

I have no wall.
So I select my therapists very carefully.

I'm not inpressed by this research on the therapy relationship (alliance), mostly because of the way the research is structured. For example, alliance is often measured on the 3rd or 4th session. How stupid is that. It appears to be the most researched factor, but despite the correlation only evidence, research anything over and over while cherry picking the ones with the outcomes that are favorable to the researcher's goals and you will find the 'evidence'.

How important are the common factors in psychotherapy? An update

Maybe the therapists in the good alliances have good interpersonal skills? Or maybe the clients are hopeful and idealizing in that 4th session? I personally think competence is most important.

Despite my skepticism of the research, I do want a sort of fatherly bond with my T, but that seems to have arisen over time after the transference has dwindled. Before this, the child feelings were transference. And we'd never have gotten here if it wasn't for his competence because I would have never trusted him enough.

For me, the relationship is something that is important to me given the T meets other criteria, such as nonreactive and nonintrusive, solid sense of self, good psychological boundaries, intelligent, and likeable. And strong. And his heart in the right place. I do love my T. ❤

Here's the chart from the article I posted:



Figure 1

Effect sizes for common factors of the contextual model and specific factors. Width of bars is proportional to number of studies on which effect is based. RCTs – randomized controlled trials, EBT – evidence-based treatments

[zoiecat]

I have a huge wall with everybody not just my therapist. I have never been attached to either of my long-term therapist I've been seeing this one for a little over two years now.

I guess I'm a bit of a freak because I don't attach to anybody nor do I really understand what people mean by a connection in therapy. I open up and I'm honest with my therapist based on the fact that I hired him as a professional and that's his job. I hate going to therapy I'd read it twice a week and my therapist makes me mad quite frequently because he continues to push for me to make progress. I have to admit that I have made tons of progress in the past two years with him. So off I trudged twice a week with the encouragement of my friends who always tell me I shouldn't quit every week.

So I guess I break the mold on all of the therapeutic alliance findings. I do not have a connection, I am pretty much open with explaining my past in current feelings even though I have a huge wall, and I continue to make progress.

My only conclusion I guess is that I treated like a professional relationship always I don't look for anything else from the man.

[Echos Myron redux]

There's no way I would be able to process trauma and learn to trust myself the way I have without experiencing that in the context of relational depth with my therapist. It's been integral to me, but I think it depends what you want to get out of the relationship.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I would have never stayed with a therapist that I didn’t naturally and easily connect with, but I found it fairly easy to find that kind of therapist.

[tomatenoir]

So for those who don't connect /don't connect easily, how are you sharing intimate things but not forming a connection? Or if you're not sure, what's your guess?

Really curious how this works.

[stopdog]

For me, it was just relating past facts. X happened or Y happened. The therapist was not a part of it and I have no bearing on the therapist's life - they are not part of my real life. They were paid to keep their emotions and life away from me.

[SlumberKitty]

Right now I am trying to not form a connection with my current T. Too much hurt after losing my former T. But whether or not the therapy relationship would actually work this way is yet to be seen. HUGS Kit

[zoiecat]

For me, T is just a professional that I cone in and state my symptoms (memories, traumas, etc) to. It is his job to take that infirmation and form a treatment plan. My job is to follow his directions in order to help myself feel better. I treat it like any other doctor. Step be step, just as I have been doing the past year with my cancer.

It may also help that I rarely look at him. At times I think of him as just a voice coming out of a box.

My therapy is also very goal oriented. EMDR, CBT reframing, learning and practicing DBT skills and mindfulness. Unlike what I observe from other sessions on this board there is very little chit chat around the issue of the day. If there is something that is bothering me my T will find a way to use one of the above mentioned techniques to address it. My T says people do not get better if he just allows them to use him for daily support and just vent each session.

Sometimes I hate him for this and sometimes (rarely) he will just let me vent. But I must admit he has helped me a lot and I have made tremendous progress in the past 2 years.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

But I must admit he has helped me a lot and I have made tremendous progress in the past 2 years.

That's great Zoiecat! Kit

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

I feel like most people can compartmentalise their relationships much better than I can. I start out very professional at every job I have, but I inevitably become a little too chummy and overly helpful to my colleagues. If I'm not getting chummy with someone my only other factory setting is to completely ignore them (which I use on people I find obnoxious, dumb, or cruel). But I wouldn't bother seeing a therapist I'd want to ignore!

So there must be some middle ground I can't get to! Can you form attachments, but break them off and feel nothing at the drop of a hat? Is this possible in a therapy relationship? Can you treat your life in a professional way in therapy?

I feel like my compartmentalization has changed over time--when I was younger, I would identify with the "too chummy" or "we obviously like each other after spending a few hours together, let's hang out every day all day forever and forever." I'm curious about the "completely ignore" as the only other option; I feel like I was more the one likely to be ignored.

But now I think I am more boundaried at work, while also sharing more of myself when it's important or helpful to do so-- less relational per se but more open to working with people more deeply, more emotionally, more sensitively and holistically-- see everything as connected to everything else.

I do feel boundaried in therapy in the sense that my attachment to my T does not cause me pain, but I think it would if I felt compelled to quit like you did or was terminated for non mutual reasons. It's different than say with the family doc I've seen for 15 years, yah I would miss her if she left (I've had other doctors leave). So I don't think I'm impervious to attachment even if the loss of my T would not cut me off at the knees like other losses in my life.

For me, it feels like it is a rare relationship where I can end it, whether it's a natural end, a conflicted end, or whatever, and not feel anything at all, maybe even regret. I don't know that people are built that way in general, if that is a norm or desirable. I feel like what you are experiencing is a few social things mixed up together. Even if you were better boundaried at work, I think you would still feel something when a T or other relationship goes south. I am sorry it is still painful. For me feeling angry at someone for mistreatment tends to stick around, because it evokes some deepish childhood resentment, "it is NOT fair!" Somehow just a loss seems not as hot or juicy.

[Mopey]

I don't see how you can avoid it.

[tomatenoir]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

For me, T is just a professional that I cone in and state my symptoms (memories, traumas, etc) to. It is his job to take that infirmation and form a treatment plan. My job is to follow his directions in order to help myself feel better. I treat it like any other doctor. Step be step, just as I have been doing the past year with my cancer.

It may also help that I rarely look at him. At times I think of him as just a voice coming out of a box.

My therapy is also very goal oriented. EMDR, CBT reframing, learning and practicing DBT skills and mindfulness. Unlike what I observe from other sessions on this board there is very little chit chat around the issue of the day. If there is something that is bothering me my T will find a way to use one of the above mentioned techniques to address it. My T says people do not get better if he just allows them to use him for daily support and just vent each session.

Sometimes I hate him for this and sometimes (rarely) he will just let me vent. But I must admit he has helped me a lot and I have made tremendous progress in the past 2 years.

I found this really interesting to read -- I initially had brief CBT before my long-term therapist, but I found it obvious and unhelpful. And I felt nothing for the woman who delivered it. So perhaps it's down to modality. Maybe treating negative emotions as something to be solved rather than heard can curb connection. Have you ever had psychodynamic therapy and was that different? Be curious to hear from members who've had both.

I also wonder if there's a difference depending on whether you share history (where I feel like I'm just relaying facts) or current emotions. I felt little connection when I discussed things that I'd moved on from, though, oddly, my therapist seemed most moved by those moments.

@Anne I think I started off life as someone who felt way too much (I can identify with turning every positive interaction into a full-blown relationship) and it eventually became overwhelming so I became someone who felt nothing. Now it's swung back somewhat.

I'm curious by what you mean when you say you don't work relationally, but holistically. Can you talk about that?

It's perhaps good to know attachment is OK. I felt attached to my therapist, but not in the way many forum members talk about attachment. I really didn't care that he had other clients, a life outside me, or that I wasn't his friend. The loss I felt was for a mentor and for someone who understood me. There's also a grudge -- there's a part of me that wants to ring his doorbell, kick him in the shins for being so inexplicably cold at the end, then run away.

I definitely need to learn how to manage work relationships better. It's just that I find 50% of the people I work with to be vacuous morons. But then again, I work in advertising.

[nottrustin]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. My husband and coworkers are all encouraging me to go to school for a MSW. This board makes me the most nervous; I fear messing up somebody's life. The therapists I work often come ri me for insight.

Anyway, I do worry about that attachment part. I really struggle with forming an attachment to people but once I do, I am, I have a hard time letting go. After Ts death I spoke to EMDR quite a bit about the attachment. She thought it was essential for T to utilize attachment therapy because of my history.

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

I found this really interesting to read -- I initially had brief CBT before my long-term therapist, but I found it obvious and unhelpful. And I felt nothing for the woman who delivered it. So perhaps it's down to modality. Maybe treating negative emotions as something to be solved rather than heard can curb connection. Have you ever had psychodynamic therapy and was that different? Be curious to hear from members who've had both.

I also wonder if there's a difference depending on whether you share history (where I feel like I'm just relaying facts) or current emotions. I felt little connection when I discussed things that I'd moved on from, though, oddly, my therapist seemed most moved by those moments.

@Anne I think I started off life as someone who felt way too much (I can identify with turning every positive interaction into a full-blown relationship) and it eventually became overwhelming so I became someone who felt nothing. Now it's swung back somewhat.

I'm curious by what you mean when you say you don't work relationally, but holistically. Can you talk about that?

It's perhaps good to know attachment is OK. I felt attached to my therapist, but not in the way many forum members talk about attachment. I really didn't care that he had other clients, a life outside me, or that I wasn't his friend. The loss I felt was for a mentor and for someone who understood me. There's also a grudge -- there's a part of me that wants to ring his doorbell, kick him in the shins for being so inexplicably cold at the end, then run away.

I definitely need to learn how to manage work relationships better. It's just that I find 50% of the people I work with to be vacuous morons. But then again, I work in advertising.

Quite honestly, these boards make me feel like a freak. I do not connect with anyone. I have had significant others but they never lasted and I do have a few close friends, but I don't normally want to be "chummy" with anyone. I would like a forever soul mate and hopefully I will get there some day.

No, I have never done psychodynamic therapy and from what I know of it I have no desire to. I know what has caused my "issues". I don't need to talk about it or dig deeper to understand how or why it impacts my current life. What I do need, are the skills to get past it; to not let the traumas of my past trigger me on a daily basis. EMDR has helped tremendously in making me aware of how my brain allows my past to sneak into every crevice of my being.

Sometimes I feel like I am on the spectrum although I know I am not. I just don't have a desire to be attached to my T. I don't feel the need, that would only set me up for more dissappointment. I know my T is not my friend, boyfriend, father, savior, or anything else beyond a hired professional and I do not want him to be.

I don't feel the need to trust him in order to open up about my thoughts and feelings. I trust him because he is a professional and that is his job. There are things I will no longer tell him and I do censor things at times, but that is simply to avoid a response or conversation that I do not want to enter into at the moment.

I guess it is just the way I am. My upbringing was horrendous and I learned to not attach to anyone at a very young age. I understand this and some day I may be able to seek a connection with people. Until then, I am what I am. Explaining how and why I am this way is probably as foreign of a concept to most people here as me trying to understand why others get so deeply attached so easily.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

@Anne I think I started off life as someone who felt way too much (I can identify with turning every positive interaction into a full-blown relationship) and it eventually became overwhelming so I became someone who felt nothing. Now it's swung back somewhat.

I'm curious by what you mean when you say you don't work relationally, but holistically. Can you talk about that?

I think it's a positive thing to feel emotion without being overwhelmed. Sounds like good progress.

I think what I meant by holistically is in the context of the work I do, which is interviewing people about their life histories which include much trauma to establish the legal relief they are seeking. There are often pressing time limits so I can't talk to them for a couple of hours at a time over a long period. And my interviewing isn't for therapeutic purposes although I've experienced that people often feel better after disclosing the past harms they have suffered and often when talking about their lives, understand how their past might have affected them in all kinds of ways. This is consistent with the research done by James Pennebaker and his colleagues about how disclosure to others (and journaling) enhances well-being.

I think when I was younger doing this work, I've been at it for more than 20 years, I confused being friendly or friend-like with developing rapport with people. And people are different, so I focus now on trying to provide the kind of sensitivity and support people need to confide in me, not so they feel I'm great or whatever. I used to be more concerned that the people I worked with thought I was not just good at what I did, but an XYZ kind of person. So I think I would say and do things that were more relational in nature, things that made someone feel good (which is not a bad thing to do, I just don't think it's always helpful, especially since I am not going to be a presence in their life for very long), and it's easy to misjudge what might make someone feel good in the moment. I more try to share my experience for the purpose that people know that some of the things caused by trauma are not their personal failings (as ptsd symptoms often make people feel crazy or different, unconnected to others), that others have gone through what they have, that some of the things they have done in reaction to trauma are typical or normal, etc etc. I'm more of a wholistic educator now rather than a pal who understands and works to help them.

So my field and nature of work are very different than yours (I couldn't do what you do), but I think that shifts to boundaries with other people that are intentional and thought out rather than reflexive are possible and probably a good thing. I think being willing to examine what you do and how you do it at work or elsewhere is a positive step too.