Being brave about therapist exploitation

Topiarysurvivor · Feb 14, 2019 at 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

An individual expressing a personal opinion, no matter what the interest she has in the subject matter, does not invalidate anyone's experience or change the truth as anyone sees fit to see it. This just seems like disagreement to me, and anyone who insists that someone else must change their mind to conform to what you believe is just a dominance and power move in and of itself. If people choose to run away from a thread or shut down because someone disagrees with them (as opposed to putting the individual on ignore and choosing not to read), that's on them. Trying to shame and guilt-trip people into changing their mind is just another form of emotional manipulation.

I don't believe that anyone expressing an opinion that disagrees with a majority needs to stop. Her opinion doesn't discount the reality that others have experienced a power dynamic in therapy, nor does she express that survivors who are victims of abuse are to blame for what happened to them.

Nor do I think anyone who is mad or otherwise upset at someone else's opinion has to stop either. I think it unhealthy on a public forum to try to chill discussion or otherwise force others to submit to some "viewpoint" they don't claim is about anyone other than themselves. That's my opinion, but I think if you want to insist that your viewpoint be heard, then listening to others and allowing them to disagree with it seems to go along with it. I'm not interested in reading opinions, although I am interested in learning more about therapist exploitation, that are repetitive and insisting that someone must see things the way you do.

I also think there is more to the discussion about therapist exploitation than a simple conclusion about the power dynamic as the "cause" of therapist exploitation. Power dynamics exist in all kinds of relationships, including parent-child; teacher-student; boss-employee; judge-litigants (there are some cases about judges forcing litigants into sexual relationships for favorable outcomes in family law cases), etc. It can't be just that power dynamics or an imbalance create an abuse of power, although. Pointing to the power imbalance seems to me like a discounting of a therapist's deliberate and likely calculated or strategic actions to exploit someone. I also think that one way to flare the imbalance of power is to abuse someone; meaning that abuse itself creates an imbalance of power. Over time, I think the dynamic goes both ways. But what better way to enhance your power over someone than to say something soul-crushing to them, or to come on to them, or to offer them a quid-pro-quo instead of professional help?

The other thing I have seen in the trauma survivors I work with (not as a T) is that abuse reinforces the established power someone has over someone else, so as time goes on, the abuser needs to do less and less to maintain their power, or less and less to get the person to comply with their requests or demands. Sometimes this is because the survivor feels safer when she anticipates what the abuser wants and adapts her behavior to that, so she doesn't risk the displeasure of the abuser.

I don't know if any of these dynamics apply in therapist exploitation, but it seems to me they might, if I'm hearing the stories of some of the survivors stories I've read accurately.

When I see posts from people who are considering altering their role from client to lover or even friend, my impulse is to scream, " Run!" This is where my response came from. The post was a simple request for information. Surely the being brave part of my thread title might have cued most people to treat the topic gently. Maybe not.

Yes, I think you are very much on target if you are applying those dynamics to my case.

Topiarysurvivor · Feb 14, 2019 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Just echoing this.

My husband was just as supportive. Without his help and support primarily I wouldn't have made it. Then, there was a valuable initial support and help from AdvocateWeb and TELL. Theirs was just the right type of help at the right time. Then there was a long, painful road to healing, which still continues..I've gone a long way though..

I used TELL as well. It was very helpful.

scorpiosis37 · Feb 14, 2019 at 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

I used TELL as well. It was very helpful.

What did TELL do for you?

koru_kiwi · Feb 15, 2019 at 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

You know how hard it was for me to start that thread. I'm not sorry I did. I learned that I am firm in my view of what happened to me, and protective of others who have had similar experiences.

I just keep trying to help others as part of my healing.

although i have not contributed much to this thread, i have been reading it all and i appreciate that you started it. it's these types of conversations that need to be had if any change is ever go to come about. thank you

here today · Feb 15, 2019 at 03:58 AM

I appreciate you starting this thread, too, and the discussions that have resulted.

I'd like to apologize if I have intruded my own emotions and agenda on here -- it's part of something I am learning, to be within my own "skin" -- and part of the healing process, maybe. But sometimes I step over the line -- part of the learning process, maybe, but still. . .

Anne2.0 · Feb 15, 2019 at 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

I'm pretty sure this would have happened even if I had asked people to refrain. We've all seen it happen.

One thing I would ask you to consider is that for some survivors, being silenced was a critical part of the abuse and violence we suffered. This may be especially true if it were, like for me, you were a victim of CSA and the perpetrator was a member of your family. It takes you a lot of years to be able to talk about it at all, and the family dynamics are really messy as you're trying to heal and relate to your family. So much pressure to be silent about what is true for you, to speak about your experience and how you feel about it. That's where I'm coming from when I say that I think people ought to be able to speak their piece on this board without being shamed and bullied.

People can label posts as rude or disrespectful or whatever, but that doesn't make it so. I think reasonable people ought to be able to disagree about what's rude or whatever, and to me, this doesn't happen when somebody sticks to her own experience.

I've never experienced silencing to be helpful to survivors of any kind. I've spent most of my professional life advocating for survivors and there are all kinds of advocacy, including the belief that people ought to be able to say what's true for them. Personally I would prefer it if other survivors would be willing to listen and engage (as you have on this thread) or not engage if it's not healthy for you. But I guess for me I think the harm caused by silencing is far greater than the harm caused by listening to someone's contradictory viewpoint.

Feb 15, 2019 at 07:11 AM

I mostly agree with Anne about the silencing and also about the origins of why it is not a good idea. I was bullied as a child for years on and off (by other kids) and it never did my self-esteem any good to be threatened not to speak about it, even though that was mostly what I did at the time (kept it to myself). I do not demand that others refrain from critical feedback because I got some unfairly though, but I prefer realistic mutual considerations. I also just would like to point out that, if respect is expected and appreciated by survivors (I personally don't like this term but use it because OP and others refer to themselves this way), I think it is fair enough to expect the same by people who don't necessarily share the same experience and exact view. I am not talking about the OP of this thread but in more general, how people on this forum sometimes seem to believe that they are more evolved than everyone else and see more than others, and are entitled to harsh attacks, language and telling others what they should do (or not do) because they experienced specific types of hardship or whatever...while obviously failing to see their own limitations and bullying. I have learned to kinda tolerate that and not react to it to a certain extent but that tolerance has realistic limits and bullying is bullying, no matter how much the people who engage in it hurt inside. I very much appreciate OP's notion of trying to be gentle and more open, especially if one expects the same from others.

DP_2017 · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

I'm wondering why, if you aren't a survivor, this issue is so important to you. If it is based in intellectual curiosity, I would love for you to read some of the resources listed, and I would like to see some of your sources with opposite "viewpoints" on the abuse of power. The good news for me is that I am getting mad rather than shutting down or running away, but I'm not sure others are at that point.

So someone who has not experienced something has no right to have any views? Ok got it.

Here's one for you Do Therapists Really Have More "Power" Than Their Clients? | Psychology Today

Also I am not dismissing anyone, I have said MANY times, that everyone sees things different, you see there being one? Cool. I don't. Can we just respect those differences? I'm not trying to force you to see it my way. I don't care how you see it but it seems like you feel that everyone needs to see it your way, why is that?

What a boring world it would be if we ALL agreed on everything...

blackocean · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:05 AM

I want you both to consider just how lonely and confusing this experience truly is. not just this but prolonged domestic abuse that was manipulative instead of outright controlling or violent, or “affairs” with pastors and professors or other powerful figures in one’s life that were abusive. being a victim of this is lonely because there is no support network and no outside understanding of what happened and why it was so traumatic. as a victim of a similar kind of abuse I have spent hours googling “sexual grooming of adults” and finding article after article about the grooming of children and how adults are groomed by child predators to overlook CSA and maybe 1 in 100 about how adults are groomed for abuses of various kinds. and the sad thing is that those adults targeted in this way are often victims of CSA and this is why they are so receptive to grooming and have poor boundaries and that is what makes them so vulnerable. my first molestation was 13 and I can look back at that and look through the shame and regret and and say “You were a kid, you froze, it’s okay.” when I look at my sexual abuse in my twenties I think “you were an adult, you ****ing idiot.” one of the absolute worst things about this is that we are adults. we “consented” to our own repeated rapes at 25, 35, 45, and so we don’t make sense to ourselves but also to anyone else who doesn’t understand how we could do that, how we could be adults who made this decision, behaved this way, ****ed a married man who had been for months if not years emotionally and psychologically abusing us in preparation for a sexual relationship we otherwise would have run from. this is partly why pointing out that people are just “two adults” making choices is so triggering for survivors of this. because this implies that we must be children or we should not be complaining because we chose this, we made bad decisions, we have PTSD now that we feel like we gave ourselves because we could have said No or walked away. the psychological grooming of adults is so poorly researched and understood. the trauma of “non violent” abuse of adults carried out almost entirely by manipulation instead of physical force or threats of physical force makes little sense to people who haven’t experienced it. they see themselves there and see themselves making the right decisions easily. “why didn’t you say something? why didn’t you walk away? don’t you have a brain? you aren’t a child.” so I’m sorry if people feel silenced or bullied but it hurts very much to be reminded that you “consented” to abuse.

DP_2017 · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:13 AM

did I ever say anything about people being silenced? I don't believe so. Talk, yell or scream if you need. There is a lot of resources and support for victims of abuse, I see it all over the net. There is even some places that do group therapy for that stuff.

Of course all types of abuse happens, in all types of relationships. I never said it didn't. I was and still am mentally abused by my mom. I don't talk about it because I don't like to but it doesn't mean people who need to talk about their abuse can't. Do what you need to do.

ArtleyWilkins · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:18 AM

No one should assume they know about the abuse other people have experienced. None of us know the details of others' history of abuse. Some of us have experienced abuse as much older teenagers or as adults AND can still have a differing viewpoint, but the assumption is made we don't understand, even when our backgrounds are really unknowns. I don't see anyone offering up rudeness or insults except for a few posters who are trying to silence people with differing opinions, viewpoints, or experiences. How that is not also seen as bullying and silencing, I do not understand?

People on forums have a range of opinions and so long as they don't call people trolls or in other ways demean their viewpoints, so long as their stories and opinions are posted with care and respect for all, I do not understand why they should be demeaned for their differing viewpoint, but again, it has happened.

stopdog · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:24 AM

Blaming the victim seems to be so much easier than accepting the actual abuse that has occurred at the hands of therapists.

"Buck up", "That doesn't look that bad", "you aren't bleeding", "you should have known", "you asked for it", "you let it happen", "you didn't stop it" etc.
None of those (or their variations, no matter the floweriness or over done or couched in philosophy or religion) are useful in my opinion.

blackocean · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

No one should assume they know about the abuse other people have experienced. None of us know the details of others' history of abuse. Some of us have experienced abuse as much older teenagers or as adults AND can still have a differing viewpoint, but the assumption is made we don't understand, even when our backgrounds are really unknowns. I don't see anyone offering up rudeness or insults except for a few posters who are trying to silence people with differing opinions, viewpoints, or experiences. How that is not also seen as bullying and silencing, I do not understand?

People on forums have a range of opinions and so long as they don't call people trolls or in other ways demean their viewpoints, so long as their stories and opinions are posted with care and respect for all, I do not understand why they should be demeaned for their differing viewpoint, but again, it has happened.

Maybe i am just not at a stage in my healing where I can be on a board like this at all. It’s so triggering and i obviously havent worked through that yet as my ptsd is still very active and difficult to control. There is no way I could entertain a friendly debate about the subject. It’s the middle of the night here and I’m up up up now feeling panicked trying to remind myself to take a breath because I’m holding it. All i can say is that i find many comments here PERSONALLY triggering and maybe leave it at that

Feb 15, 2019 at 09:38 AM

A couple of months ago someone on here mentioned that they thought that many clients were involved in a "trauma bond" with their therapists. (I'm sorry that I do not remember who said it!) . I was not familiar with this, but once I did some research about it, it was like a lightbulb went off. I think that therapists in particular can instill this knowingly. It can make it so incredibly hard to leave.

What is Trauma Bonding?

10 Steps to Recovering from a Toxic Trauma Bond

Anne2.0 · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackocean

so I’m sorry if people feel silenced or bullied but it hurts very much to be reminded that you “consented” to abuse.

No one is saying those trite victim-blaming statements you claim here and I refuse to accept any responsibility for your projections or difficulty with reading comprehension or both. If it's harmful to you to read certain comments, the ignore button is available to you. I've learned how to effectively use it.

Feb 15, 2019 at 09:48 AM

I personally don't use the Ignore function because I often get more useful things out of posts that I don't like so much than the extent of how much they bother me, but I do think it may be a more efficient way to avoid triggers (especially if one has identified that a certain member's posts tend to be repeatedly bothersome) than telling people what to do on a public forum. As everyone can see, people usually don't follow instructions from anonymous others on the internet. Also, the fact that someone does not fully understand or does not relate to something they had never experienced is not a very valid criticism, IMO - it is only normal.

stopdog · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:50 AM

Both factions seem to be telling the others what to do. Some nicer than others.

blackocean · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EG1991

A couple of months ago someone on here mentioned that they thought that many clients were involved in a "trauma bond" with their therapists. (I'm sorry that I do not remember who said it!) . I was not familiar with this, but once I did some research about it, it was like a lightbulb went off. I think that therapists in particular can instill this knowingly. It can make it so incredibly hard to leave.

What is Trauma Bonding?

10 Steps to Recovering from a Toxic Trauma Bond

very helpful and accurate.
Trauma bond is definitely a part of it.
And yes that is why it’s so scary with therapists who have more knowledge of psychology than the standard abuser.

here today · Feb 15, 2019 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

I have never found another person who was lured into a “relationship” with her therapist, and who ended up living with her.

Am I really alone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor

I haven't had time to read all the responses, but all day I have been wanting to say that I hit send on a post this morning that in retrospect I should have held. Can we agree to work each other through differences in understanding gently?

We've all got own perspectives, histories, experiences, and opinions about things.

I would like, though, to get back to the topic that TopiarySurvivor originally proposed. Including the use of the word "lured" -- if TopiarySurvivor felt that way about it, then it was their (or her?) experience. Doesn't mean it is everyone's. But the question TopiarySurvivor asked was, "Am I really alone?"

That was what the OP was about. We clearly don't have to stick to that topic, but I would rather do that than continue the free speech debate, even though I have had my iron in that fire, too.

Additionally I think TopiarySurvivor made a request that I support, even though some others have said that they can't, that we work through our differences gently. It seems clear that most of us have a history of trauma in some form or fashion, so gentle respect for each other's differences seems like would be a good thing at least to try?

Those who feel too triggered don't have to participate in trying to work through differences, but I don't see that there is any way to expect that this thread will exclude certain viewpoints that may be triggering to others. PsychCentral's guideline is that those who tend to get too triggered by certain other people's posts is that they put those members on their "ignore list."

TopiarySurvivor hasn't put any of us on their "ignore list" so it does allow for the possibility of differing opinions on this thread.

Feb 15, 2019 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stopdog

Both factions seem to be telling the others what to do. Some nicer than others.

That is true. Okay, I'll stop it.

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here today Grand Magnate Member Since Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 3,515 11 1,429 hugs given	Feb 15, 2019 at 03:58 AM #85 I appreciate you starting this thread, too, and the discussions that have resulted. I'd like to apologize if I have intruded my own emotions and agenda on here -- it's part of something I am learning, to be within my own "skin" -- and part of the healing process, maybe. But sometimes I step over the line -- part of the learning process, maybe, but still. . .

stopdog underdog is here Member Since Sep 2011 Location: blank Posts: 34,775 (SuperPoster!) 12 1 hugs given	Feb 15, 2019 at 09:50 AM #97 Both factions seem to be telling the others what to do. Some nicer than others. __________________ Please NO @ Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. Oscar Wilde Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.