Considering quitting therapy

Things have been going great in my therapy then just brushed up against a topic related to a past rupture.

My T sometimes doesn't 'own' his stuff although he has done so from time to time. When things are from my transference, I am fine in working through the rupture as anything. And ruptures are nearly all from my own stuff. But in the rare occasion he lets his transferences get in the way, he doesn't own up to it.

In this case, this was a big thing. Other than that, I don't know why this is a deal breaker for me. It's not something I want to explore in therapy due to not wanting to engage in conversation about my reaction when he refuses to own his.

I'm curious why others may get upset when someone doesn't 'own' up to something. I know it's not uncommon and wonder why this is the case in terms of how others experience it.

I almost quit today but am going to take some time to think about this. Making rash decisions in my personal life is not new to me.

Any type/all responses are welcome in my thread.

Can you be more specific about what the rupture was about?

I too wouldn't be happy if my T wasn't owning his part (I'm lucky in that my T tends to). Can you talk to him about your feeling that he's not taking responsibility for his side of the street and that it's making you feel like quitting?

For me it's about fairness. To me, a therapist not owning their part in a rupture is hypocritical, hiding behind the inherent power differential in therapy, and I don't do well with that kind of thing at all.

I know you like object relations theory -- are you familiar with Heinz Kohut's self psychology as well? I like his concept of selfobject. It's more complicated than just attachment and it matches my internal experience better.

Once someone is our "selfobject" (there are 3 different types) -- usually parents or other people in our early environment but if things don't go well. . . -- then when they fail us it is experienced as a loss to our self, and hence painful.

If it weren't for that -- so what if he messed up and has unresolved issues of his own? Maybe, if you can see that and distinguish self/other in that way, it means that you are beginning to be ready to leave therapy? AND maybe it could be interesting to see how to pull away and just see and be with him as another human being, not quitting therapy suddenly because of it as you said.

Understand, of course -- I never did that! And I am still emotionally enmeshed with my last T and the consultant who referred me to her! They disappointed me and they suck!

Still, it seems intellectually like it would be a good thing if I ever could have gotten around to that way of dealing with things, and with other people. But maybe they were just too limited to be able to help me. Just a couple of other human beings, despite me wanting to idealize them, or wanting them as an alter ego.

The reason why it would have bothered ME is this: the therapist gets to hear about and observe a great number of my faults and foibles. If she didn't even have the humility to admit when one of her own had come into play, I would think she needed to remove her head from her ***.

Thanks for the object relations talk.

That clues me in on some of my reaction. It's related to his not distinguishing the therapy relationship and transference relationship.

Yes, I do realize he has own stuff and am ok with that. I can deal with the fact his actions led to harm but am infuriated he doesn't take responsibility for any if it as a therapist. And after what he said last session, I feel so betrayed. The feelings of betrayal are not in the transference. We've had many other ruptures and I don't have the sane reaction because I know it's my transference 98% of the time.

This one is different. For 5 years, I thought he took our work seriously. I revealed myself to him, everything, and trusted him.

I am wondering if this is activating something from your past for you. I get very black and white like this when something in the present day is very upsetting and pushing up against old wounds. It's hard to imagine a scenario in which a therapist would spend five years working with somebody on what sounds like some pretty deep, intense stuff without taking the work seriously at all. I think this is the piece you'll have to hash out with him in more detail -- maybe more than once -- in order to resolve it.

I knwym EM, but he himself negated it with his own words.

I won't to go into too much detail here for personal reasons, but an analogy is was similar to saying "what is depression anyway" in a sarcastic tone after you've been talking about depression for 5 years. It's not the normal therapy stuff.

I know part of the current issues I am having with my T is my feeling that she is not owning her part in out things have played out with us.

For me I think there is an element of idealization at play. Not that she'll be perfect in her behavior/responses but be perfect in trying. Making missteps, miscalculations, or simply misplaying the situation is bound to happen, I understand that. By some how acknowledging those missteps and miscalculations, I'm able to see how she's still perfect at trying. She tried. It didn't play out the way she'd hoped or thought it might. Ok, that's fine. Sure, I get hurt in the process. Acknowledging that it didn't go the way she thought it might - something didn't land the way she intended is I guess a way of saying I'm sorry that hurt you... without actually saying I'm sorry.

I'm not sure if any of that made sense. It's hard to explain. I can say though, it causes me problems when she can't acknowledge her part in the interaction - regardless if it was counter transference, her own stuff coming up, a reenactment, or an intervention that didn't go the way she thought it might.

And yeah, it's left me with lots of uncertainty on continuing with her. We are now 3 weeks out from when I said that I needed a break from therapizing, that I was still willing to come see her but we needed a break. We have spent the last 3 weeks doing jig saw puzzles with about 10 mins each session spent talking about something that was not generic puzzle talk. That's been 9 sessions, but whose counting, right? Today was the first time we had a talking session. It went pretty well all things considered.

Yikes. That sounds extremely hurtful.

Thanks everyone.

Like i said, 98% of our ruptures have been transference related but this isn't one of them, which is why I am discussing here. My T and I have talked about every bit of the stuff from my past, and I am done with that phase of therapy.

This likely is a waste of my time and energy, so i will redirect my energies to something more constructive rather than be drained by someone pulling me down.

I guess there is no point this thread.

I think I don't start off agreeing with your premise about "owning your stuff" because I think there are more possibilities than your transference or his transference causing the problem. Sometimes people just experience the same interaction differently-- perhaps most of the time-- and while I do think the past is powerful in interpreting what others say and do, sometimes there just might not be something to own up to. There are times when the most honest thing to say is that you see it differently, and refuse to take responsibility in the way that other people want you to. I've been on the receiving end of someone wanting me to take responsibility for part or all of something that isn't mine, and I in general won't do it.

Perhaps this is just another way of saying its transference, but when I bump into an interpersonal problem that I can't make progress on, I try to reframe it as something more symbolic. There was a slow change over some years a while back, where it was very important to me that people own up to doing something that upset me. I was prone to pinning them against the wall and not letting up until they'd satisfied me that I'd be heard and they planned to change their ways (not an actual pinning, btw). This was an important transformation for me because I hadn't ever tried to resolve things with my loved ones in a meaningful way, I'd either chew them out or leave them without explanation or much chance for them to say anything. People who were afraid of losing me or afraid of confrontation would usually just give me what I wanted, but when I tried this in therapy, it didn't work so well. My T, who is one of the least defensive people I've ever met, would offer an alternative perspective, apologize for any misstep or mistake, and state his intention if it was different than my interpretation. And he did this all in a nonjudgmental way, but what it left me with was an uncomfortable sense of non-resolution because it was different combinations of me owning up to my part in something (usually misinterpretation or overinterpretation), him owning up to something (mistakes or hindsight realizations), remembering things differently, and seeing things differently.

I am not sure if this is where you are, but I think that many difficulties/disagreements/conflicts with people cannot have some neat resolution that is always satisfying. Understanding that others don't always see it the way I do and being comfortable with that put me in a new place in my relationships with people. Being able to move forward in therapy while regularly not seeing eye-to-eye with my therapist has been helpful to me in general. It is useful in understanding myself, sometimes seeing a very long chain of things that are tied to my past, or about who I've become as an adult, or both. I do see things in general differently than many people, and that is one of the things I actually most value about myself now.

So I don't really see resolution, or owning up, or whatever as the end of conflict or disagreements, as the end point. For me the endpoint is understanding, including understanding that the other person feels and sees and experiences the same interaction I did in different ways. It's an opportunity to learn more about myself and the world. Therapy was the easiest place to practice this, because my T has the least stake in the outcome-- he was comfortable and still is, with us disagreeing. I think it takes a person with a strong core to not cave into someone who is insisting, very strongly, that it must be X and not Y. And I realize that developing a better ability to agree to disagree and talking for purposes of understanding and not changing someone's mind was great preparation for raising a teenager. Especially my own Alex P. Keaton-- for the youngsters here, a character from a popular TV sitcom of the 80's, a conservative kid in a family headed by post-hippie, liberal parents.

I quit therapy with my first T twice for that reason, because he was unwilling to take responsibility and own (even just admit) his part in how the therapy turned out. Well, that wasn't the only reason, I also figured we were very incompatible in many ways and he was not useful for my most pressing issues, even hindered my progress. But the lack of responsibility thing was what pushed the ultimate decision buttons.

Like you, I can be very interested in exploring transference and find it useful (more on my own and with friends/colleagues now) and, I feel, I usually get a good sense about which of my reactions and motives are transference-based and which are simpler projections or just responses to whatever happens to me. I also have similarly high standards for responsibility in pretty much every area of my life and a high sensitivity to unfairness (even though, of course, I know it is everywhere).

You were asking why? For me, this is a long developmental process. I was exposed to peer bullying as a kid (so, unfairness) but grew up surrounded by people who had really decent morals and strong sense of responsibility in areas where they were highly functional - my parents, my dad's friends who frequented out home, my favorite teachers and mentors, best friends... looking back, originally it was just a lucky given in my life but then I have continued to make similar choices. One thing that often hindered developing my own version in a practical way was that I did not learn good discipline as a kid and continued to struggle with it as a young adult, for a good while. It frequently caused me a lot of intense cognitive dissonance - on the one hand, having this mental drive and sense of responsibility and on the other hand, not always implementing it well. In my 30's when I was drinking heavily, this dissonance escalated to unbearable levels. My self-destructive behaviors never eradicated the standards and motivations, I was always keenly aware of it, but of course it turned me irresponsible, sometimes sloppy, lying and manipulating etc as I succumbed to my addiction.

Interestingly, the deepening of this dissonance between my standards/values and my reality was what kinda saved me in the end and motivated me to resolve the addiction and other bad habits, work on discipline etc. But I was still greatly struggling when I got into therapy with my first T (a psychoanalyst). Not yet ready to start working on permanent sobriety, seriously better discipline, and to finally align my acts with my own internal values and eliminate the dissonance. I did not perceive my T back then as irresponsible, cutting corners, sloppy, manipulative... why? Well, in part because I did not know him yet but also because, I think, I subconsciously chose to be blind to those features. Luckily, I found some things and people outside therapy that exposed me very directly to the nature of my acts and encouraged to improve very directly, no nonsense and BSing. I was very open and welcoming of those judgments and suggestions and immediately knew that's the kind of help I needed, not acceptance, validation and no-judgment. That and tips how to execute those things in practical reality. I started taking my addiction recovery very seriously and, with that, resolved a lot of my other issues.

Then slowly the personality of that T and the nature of his acts and unprofessionalism became clearer and clearer, bothered me more and more, I think because I was getting much better and no longer needed/wanted anyone to tolerate or even normalize/validate my own irresponsibilities and inner conflicts. It escalated very fast into the T and I having major ruptures - that time genuine personality clashes, I think. It felt disturbing and unpleasant but also good in a way because I was certain that my thoughts, feelings and expressions were much more true to myself, to some of my most important core values about responsibility and integrity. I felt confident speaking up and pointing out when they were taken advantage of or someone attempted to manipulate, to pull me down and even try to convince me that my standards were a psychopathology!

I guess no need to say much more about what I could no longer tolerate it and then quit therapy. Had another T for a while and a short go again a year later with the first T, just because I wanted to double check that my perceptions were not imagined or transient... but the T and I ended in exactly the same conflicts, just even nastier, because by then we knew each-other better and obviously none of us were willing to compromise our nature. I had a few sessions with him and then quit for good. Never regretted or thought my perceptions and decisions were wrong, that they were not in my best interest, or even not realistic. Now it's been >2 years and my mental health/life has only gotten better.

So, to summarize in brief: for me the story with that T and my strong reactions to (ir)responsibility reflected my own basic values and aspirations, what happens when I self-destruct and violate them (also tend to get drawn to similarly irresponsible people with poor self-control, like that T), and what happens as I get out of it and get back on track with a much better aligned self that can actually manifest my values, not just think and wish for them. Reading your posts over time, I don't have the sense that our issues and stories are similar in any major ways, but perhaps some details... One thing I would encourage you to consider is whether these current feelings reflect something really good and timely in your life, perhaps they signal that it is time to make some decisions and changes in your life that are not merely working on emotional health? Maybe not only, or even mainly, regarding therapy but also in other areas of your life and choices?

ETA: Just read Anne's post and very much agree that it is possible this has nothing to do with transference/countertransference whatsoever. Maybe just a simple interpersonal difference. And I also cannot easily imagine that the T worked with you in such a deep and useful way and wasn't serious about it. There, I would perhaps double check your perception and ask whether it can be accurate realistically, considering some of the facts.

From reading posts above, it seems like a common occurrence. That's not to down play how disappointing and painful it can be.

For me it was a turning point in reclaiming my self belief. We had been through a difficult time, both individually (not that he ever disclosed much) and together and had at least 2 ruptures in a short period of time, which were linked. As with all ruptures, it's the repairing of the relationship that matters most and can transform the rupture into a healing experience. At the time he underestimated how big the rupture was for me, despite me telling him. He was a bit evasive, deflective... not wanting to own it, like yours. The 2nd one was really unnecessary and careless on his part, he refused to own it. I lost any trust I had in him after that. Much later, maybe 4 months, I had a sudden realisation like something had clicked - I suddenly realised that my intuition had been right all along. I saw a different side to him, I saw a person that was flawed, arrogant and set in his ways. It helped me move on because I found more confidence to believe in myself and I realised the limitations of my therapist and therapy - it broke my idealisation. The last time I brought it up, he tried to move me onto a different subject... which I called him out on. Generally I feel a lot better though, in some ways it's balanced the relationship a bit more and I've been able to relax more into it. It isn't easy though and I'm certainly not saying that you should take a positive spin on it or not talk about it to him, you definitely should because he obviously needs reminding about his part in the repair... even if it is counter-transference, it's still HIM enacting it!

l don't think I have the ability to explain the craziness of this all. I can't even discuss maturely with him because he distracts from answering any questions that could increase understanding.

What he said here was his view on the therapy, not mine. Trying to talk with him just results in him saying hurtful things and makes it worse

Have you considered simply taking a break from therapy, without any definitive decision or discussing it further with the T? Correct me if wrong but I kinda recall you were considering before that perhaps you had enough therapy of this round and could be time to try other things, to focus on other things... Cliche, but often things become much clearer with a bit of distance and via getting other perspectives. I really don't think that disagreements and conflicts always need to be resolved (whatever that means). Of course T's often encourage that as that's how they can keep clients. But sometimes values and the people carrying them just grow apart, ready to move on or take a break at least. It is not necessarily something super complicated and crazy.

This gives me a potential solution--thank you!

I think I may just do that. I will meet one more time. My expectations don't include agreement as thats not realistic but still don't want to depart in a bad place though and wish I never mentioned this to him last week in the first place.

It does result in crazy words on his end so people will just have to my word on that. It's something that occurs only once a year or so when he gets defensive. Same pattern, and Ive already acknowledged what is on my end but will not own what is coming from him too.

The addition of his statement about not taking the therapy seriously was really hurtful, but I can't put it all in words right now.

Thank you so much for your story-it's inspiring.

Sometimes we just reach a place with certain people where we simply don't see things the same way. It isn't even so much about that person's wrong and I'm right so much as it is a matter of difference in philosophy, perspective, whatever. So asking them to take responsibility for something they don't see as wrong probably isn't going to happen.

Sometimes when I run into that, I realize I've simply outgrown that person. We've reached a parting of the ways because our views are too divergent. I might have even completely lost respect for that person and have little desire to continue our relationship. Maybe that's where you are.

Other times we basically agree to disagree; we aren't going to budge but we can respect the other person's right to own their own thinking. We may even continue to debate those topics because we don't really mind our differing perspectives. Maybe that's where you are.

Other times we go even further and agree to not even broach certain subjects because it is just too volatile; however, we realize we have other ways we still really like each other and want to continue to interact . . . just not about that subject. Maybe that's where you are.