[Lrad123]

I have spent a year and a half with this T and something has shifted. I used to have this inner angst and anger towards him for absolutely no good reason. He’s been nothing but kind and patient. The angst has suddenly disappeared and now I’m not sure how to feel. In a way, it’s a huge relief, but it also leaves me wondering. I do think he is empathetic and unflappable and extremely consistent, but is that enough? I know therapy isn’t about being book smart, but what if he isn’t smart enough or worldly enough to be of any help? I just read the book “Maybe You Should Talk to Someone” by Lori Gottlieb (a therapist who writes the Dear Therapist column in The Atlantic) and I want a therapist like her, or even her own therapist, Wendell, who she writes about in the book. I want to feel challenged by him and touched by what he says. My T will tell me that I’ve changed since starting therapy, but I’m not so sure that it wouldn’t have happened naturally without therapy. Just not really sure what the hell I’m doing in therapy. I don’t want the past year and a half to feel like a waste of time and I don’t want to cling to something that’s not useful. Is this skepticism I’m feeling now real or is it some kind of defense to push him away? Not looking for therapy-bashing comments. Just trying to make sense of it all.

[ElectricManatee]

What specifically is it that you liked about the therapists in the book that you feel like you're not getting from your T?

[Omers]

Some of it depends on what you are seeking help with and what theoretical orientation your T is. Having waisted a lot of time and money I would say at a year you should be able to list a few things that have positively changed because of your work. I have seen my T for ten sessions and can list positive changes in my relationship with T that will allow for future work/growth, changes in my personal life, changes in my marriage and changes in my self care. My T is very kind and nurturing and is not one to pressure but he still gently nudges and we have goals we are working towards.

[susannahsays]

Keep in mind that the therapist you mention has the benefit of not having to think on her toes when she writes a book or responds to readers in the newspaper. And in the case of the former, at least, she gets to portray her actions from her POV only. In the latter, she (or the editor) are selective about whom she will respond to. I'm not saying anything for or against your therapist, I just wanted to throw those thoughts out there.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Is it maybe an option to go to a session or two with someone else and see how that feels in comparison to your current T? Sometimes it's possible to just not click enough with a T. Doesn't mean either of you are at fault, but maybe a change would be good for you? It wouldn't mean the time you spent together was a waste, it at the very least helped you to figure out what you'd need from the relationship.

Another question to ask would of course be have you talked to your T about it? Of course the 'being touched by what he says' is hard for him to just do, but at least challenging you should be something that he can switch up a bit.

[starfishing]

What do you think it is about the angst disappearing that has you wondering? That timing is an interesting piece for sure. Do you feel like you can talk to him about this?

[Rive.]

If your T isn't good enough for you, change Ts.

Why stay with someone if good enough is what you're after and what you are not getting.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

What specifically is it that you liked about the therapists in the book that you feel like you're not getting from your T?

I’m not exactly sure. I realize it’s a book that is based on real people but reads like a novel and just lets me see glimpses of other people’s therapy, so it’s not exactly real. What I like, though, is the depth of relationship and the feeling of being understood. That’s what I want. Not sure if my standards are too high and I’m not allowing myself to have this with current T. Is it me or is it him? Is it possible I can’t have this with anyone or is it just him?

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by starfishing

What do you think it is about the angst disappearing that has you wondering? That timing is an interesting piece for sure. Do you feel like you can talk to him about this?

I have all sorts of conversations about this with him in my head, but in real life I don’t want to hurt his feelings. I mean, how do I say it delicately? And what good would it do to talk about? I worry it might just put extra pressure on both of us. Regarding the angst disappearing, it’s a huge relief. I feel like I was stuck on a treadmill that was going to fast and I’ve just gotten off and can relax a bit and catch my breath. The angst at least allowed me to have some connection with him (ok, so not a great one, but it was something). Now I don’t know how to feel.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

Is it maybe an option to go to a session or two with someone else and see how that feels in comparison to your current T? Sometimes it's possible to just not click enough with a T. Doesn't mean either of you are at fault, but maybe a change would be good for you? It wouldn't mean the time you spent together was a waste, it at the very least helped you to figure out what you'd need from the relationship.

Another question to ask would of course be have you talked to your T about it? Of course the 'being touched by what he says' is hard for him to just do, but at least challenging you should be something that he can switch up a bit.

I don’t think I want to stop yet. I’m just trying to figure out how to feel now that the angst seems to have lifted. If I did stop, I’m not sure I’d have the energy to look for another T right now. Trying to decide if I should bring any of this up with him and how to do it. It makes me a little uncomfortable though.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

What I like, though, is the depth of relationship and the feeling of being understood. That’s what I want. Not sure if my standards are too high and I’m not allowing myself to have this with current T. Is it me or is it him? Is it possible I can’t have this with anyone or is it just him?

The depth of the relationship only develops with the relationship. It does not just exist in the vacuum and it is not something a therapist can create alone. You must be actively participating for this depth to develop by opening up and making yourself vulnerable. This is something that depending on the person can take a long time to develop.

If you think that this is something that would be easier for you to do with someone else then sure why not try someone else. However, for some reason I think that there really isn't anyone with whom it would be significantly easier for you.

[Salmon77]

I have all sorts of conversations about this with him in my head, but in real life I don’t want to hurt his feelings. I mean, how do I say it delicately? And what good would it do to talk about?

It seems like you do this kind of thing a lot, you worry a ton about things related to your therapist and then you don't actually tell him about it for some reason. I can't say whether your T is good or not but I do wonder if your feeling a lack of depth in the relationship might have something to do with you holding a lot back.

Do you see improvement in your life or progress towards your goals that you think is due to therapy?

I think this is a really interesting question.

For me, the therapy relationship was a double-edged sword. I felt like I had a truly connected, transcendental relationship with my therapist - as you mention. However, that connection also caused me a tremendous amount of pain because the structure of therapy (the therapist having numerous clients, the relationship being paid, not having control over the amount of time I could see her and contact her) directly conflicted with the specialness that I attributed to what we had. The unwinding of my therapy and inevitable termination from my end was due to how tremendously painful (and retraumatizing) the dynamic became. The relationship wasn’t enough, but not because she wasn’t enough - but because any therapy relationship would never be enough.

From the perspective of being almost a year out of therapy (at least therapy that isn’t geared towards curbing the trauma FROM therapy), I’ll say the goal of therapy should never be the relationship with the therapist (or any therapist). In my opinion, the goal should be cultivating meaningful relationships in your everyday life.

A few months after I terminated therapy, I had a crisis in my personal life. My therapist would have been the first person I called, but instead I called a friend. I remember standing in her kitchen, crying. The connection I felt with my friend, hugging and talking through what was going on... hearing about her personal experiences and challenges with what I was going through felt truly healing - in a way I never felt in therapy for all the reasons I mentioned. It was equal, person to person, and she didn’t withhold anything. The connection didn’t trigger longing, didn’t make me want more from her (because everything was given freely), I wasn’t kicked out at any special time, and I didn’t pay her. She checked on me later and said she was there whenever I needed her.

Back to your question - I’m not sure any therapy relationship will ever be enough. However, if you can leverage it to cultivate more support in your everyday life, I think it can HELP.

What feileacan and Salmon said.

I also think the depth of the relationship is directly correlated with the intensity of the transference--if you are relating to someone based largely upon the past rather than who the T is entirely, the relationship is largely with the transference object rather than the individual so is not as 'deep' of a relationship and lacks a certain level of intimacy (no matter how intense the transference feels). This changes in parallel with the dependency diminishing.

Originally Posted by feileacan

The depth of the relationship only develops with the relationship. It does not just exist in the vacuum and it is not something a therapist can create alone. You must be actively participating for this depth to develop by opening up and making yourself vulnerable. This is something that depending on the person can take a long time to develop.

If you think that this is something that would be easier for you to do with someone else then sure why not try someone else. However, for some reason I think that there really isn't anyone with whom it would be significantly easier for you.

I agree. I’m not sure this is something that can necessarily be filled by a therapist either. Perhaps it’s Lrad’s time to practice this in the ‘real world’.

I think there’s only so far therapy can take someone before they must look for what they need from the right people - people that can offer reciprocity of strong feelings. I deeply understand the need to hold back in a clinical environment - in many ways it is necessary self-protection from someone that doesn’t have as much invested in the relationship.

That’s not to say there’s no role for this particular therapist (or therapy in general) but I think the longing and needs need to find the right recipient.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by feileacan

The depth of the relationship only develops with the relationship. It does not just exist in the vacuum and it is not something a therapist can create alone. You must be actively participating for this depth to develop by opening up and making yourself vulnerable. This is something that depending on the person can take a long time to develop.

If you think that this is something that would be easier for you to do with someone else then sure why not try someone else. However, for some reason I think that there really isn't anyone with whom it would be significantly easier for you.

Apparently I’m moving at a snail’s pace. I also agree that this might be hard for me to experience with any therapist. I’m really trying to participate and be vulnerable, but it’s hard.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

but I do wonder if your feeling a lack of depth in the relationship might have something to do with you holding a lot back

I agree that what I post here and what I send to him in emails is quite different than what I talk to him about in person. I’m not sure why that is. It’s hard to feel free when we’re face to face. I’m also much more sensible and appropriate in person. Some of the things I agonize over seem trivial when I’m with him in person. Like in this instance, should I say, “I want to feel close to you but am worried I never will”? Or “I’m stressed out that you don’t really get me”? I mean, that’s pretty weird to say out loud and there’s nothing he can do about it anyway.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by octoberful

What feileacan and Salmon said.

I also think the depth of the relationship is directly correlated with the intensity of the transference--if you are relating to someone based largely upon the past rather than who the T is entirely, the relationship is largely with the transference object rather than the individual so is not as 'deep' of a relationship and lacks a certain level of intimacy (no matter how intense the transference feels). This changes in parallel with the dependency diminishing.

This makes sense. I do have quite a different relationship (in my mind anyway) with the email version of my therapist (my Virtual T, as I call him) compared to my real life T. Not sure how to integrate it all.

[Salmon77]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Like in this instance, should I say, “I want to feel close to you but am worried I never will”? Or “I’m stressed out that you don’t really get me”? I mean, that’s pretty weird to say out loud and there’s nothing he can do about it anyway.

I don't think those would be weird things to say to a therapist. It's true he won't have a magic cure for those issues but talking honestly about them might be a good way to start working on them.

You didn't answer my other question, about whether you see benefits from therapy in your life, and of course you don't have to answer anything you don't want. But I just wanted to point out that, if you're asking yourself "what am I doing in therapy anyway," looking for ways or instances when it has helped you might be a way to answer that question. Or if it really isn't helping you at all then better to be aware of that, too.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

You didn't answer my other question, about whether you see benefits from therapy in your life, and of course you don't have to answer anything you don't want. But I just wanted to point out that, if you're asking yourself "what am I doing in therapy anyway," looking for ways or instances when it has helped you might be a way to answer that question. Or if it really isn't helping you at all then better to be aware of that, too.

I’m honestly not sure if it’s helping. I went to therapy for some specific life circumstances that felt difficult and it became about something else. I suppose what I may be realizing is that I don’t have to do everything myself (emotionally) and I can rely on others. Easier said than done, but I get it logically. My husband has also been in therapy so that has helped both of us. But it’s more complicated than this, I think.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors3

I agree. I’m not sure this is something that can necessarily be filled by a therapist either. Perhaps it’s Lrad’s time to practice this in the ‘real world’.

I think there’s only so far therapy can take someone before they must look for what they need from the right people - people that can offer reciprocity of strong feelings. I deeply understand the need to hold back in a clinical environment - in many ways it is necessary self-protection from someone that doesn’t have as much invested in the relationship.

That’s not to say there’s no role for this particular therapist (or therapy in general) but I think the longing and needs need to find the right recipient.

Well, sure, therapy relationship is not the end goal itself but without that it might be very difficult for some people to make qualitative and substantial changes in their real life relationships. I know that this has been the case for me.

If a person cannot accept care from the therapist then how on earth should that person be able to develop reciprocal relationships with other people? Especially if the person has been always the one who has taken care of others and have been basically controlling the relationships.

The receiving part of the reciprocity has to be learned as well and for some people it is extremely difficult. Similarly, learning not to try to control the relationships is a non-trivial task that may simply not be possible without the help of a good therapist.

Originally Posted by feileacan

Well, sure, therapy relationship is not the end goal itself but without that it might be very difficult for some people to make qualitative and substantial changes in their real life relationships. I know that this has been the case for me.

If a person cannot accept care from the therapist then how on earth should that person be able to develop reciprocal relationships with other people? Especially if the person has been always the one who has taken care of others and have been basically controlling the relationships.

The receiving part of the reciprocity has to be learned as well and for some people it is extremely difficult. Similarly, learning not to try to control the relationships is a non-trivial task that may simply not be possible without the help of a good therapist.

I don’t disagree with any of this. Though you’ve had a different therapy experience than I’ve had, I respect your experiences and can see the value in working through these type themes in a therapy space.

My response wasn’t meant to be a therapy dig, but to point out that the relationship itself SHOULD feel like it’s not enough. And perhaps encourage the OP not to look for another therapist who fills all the empty holes because it’s probably not going to happen in therapy.

[Xynesthesia2]

It's an interesting statement that therapy is the only way to work on negative relationship patterns and without it it would not be possible. Most people have relationship problems every now and then but never go to therapy and can still navigate life and have decent social connections. Also, I know quite a few people who have spent years in therapy, claim that it was the relationship with the T that they appreciated the best, but are still unable to maintain fulfilling ordinary relationships (and other things) in their lives. So, I am not sure...

OP, I usually tell people who express doubts about their Ts or therapy in general and are unsure whether it is useful at all, to test it by taking a break. I do think therapy often brings up a lot of things that were not on the radar before, some perhaps completely irrelevant to normal life and wellbeing and are merely the product of how therapy is done (the general structure or the conduct of a specific T). It can be easy to confuse useful discoveries that will benefit from exploring with localized, unimportant frustrations that would not exist outside of therapy or in everyday relationships. It could perhaps be compared to some unwanted side effects of a medication that would not exist without taking the medication. If the treatment is really helpful, maybe the side effects can be treated using a different drug, and this is, in fact, how often psych med regimes develop... And sometimes people go on drug holidays to see if they still need the treatment at all. Or try different meds. I really think it can be applied to therapy as well.

On a different note, do you find all this introspection and processing you do by yourself, and on this forum, helpful? If yes, maybe therapy is useful as it leads you to it.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors3

My response wasn’t meant to be a therapy dig, but to point out that the relationship itself SHOULD feel like it’s not enough. And perhaps encourage the OP not to look for another therapist who fills all the empty holes because it’s probably not going to happen in therapy.

And it's not going to happen with anyone else in "real life" either. No one can fill these empty holes, but a therapist can help to see what is possible to obtain from other people (including the therapist and the other people). With extreme luck, a lay person can help to learn that too - but these people are very rare who in real life can fulfil the role otherwise a good therapist would do.

I don't think it's our role here to encourage or discourage anyone doing anything. Everyone has their own journey and although OP seems to ask a lot of advice and opinions, it seems to me that she knows full well what she is doing.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

It's an interesting statement that therapy is the only way to work on negative relationship patterns and without it it would not be possible. Most people have relationship problems every now and then but never go to therapy and can still navigate life and have decent social connections.

Were you responding to me? If yes then I think you are comparing oranges and apples. I don't find enough energy right now to explain the difference of those two.

Let me just say that my responses in this thread are not generic and are given in the context of what I know of and how I understand the OP. These things cannot be taken out of context and generalized to random other people who have relationship problems.