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LonesomeTonight
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:07 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
After watching you go through the pain of three separate therapists and their boundaries, I agree with him. I don’t say this blamingly, I think you’re just wired in such a way that you really need to know where you stand with someone. Given that, I can think of few relationships more likely to trigger that lack of satisfaction than a therapeutic relationship.

(One reason I stay with Info, to the mystification of many here, is I don’t want anything more from her than being a therapist I see occasionally. Not friendship, not love, not mothering. Nice change from therapists like No. 3.)

If you look for another therapist, I agree with trying a woman. I know you think the transference is mainly paternal/male authority figure, but in a number of your posts here (not just the ones about sex dreams) it comes across as strongly erotic. So I wonder if that doesn’t also play a role in the lack of satisfaction with boundaries. Maybe a woman closer to your age to help avoid maternal transference, with whom you don’t have much in common or whom you wouldn’t want to be friendly with irl. Not that that might not happen anyway, but it might be a better place to start.

Thanks, @@. I did really like the woman I saw a few times who was Dr. T's backup. But she only sees executives now, changed her practice (that would have been an issue with them being in the same office space anyway--she leases from him--but I figure would be teletherapy for a while).

And I do agree about some of the erotic nature there. I really think some of it is simply attraction (and chemistry, which is kind of a different thing) with Dr. T, not necessarily erotic transference. So, yes, I could see the lack of satisfaction being more difficult because of that for sure.

And that does actually make sense about Info. With Dr. T, his seeming like an arrogant douchebag at first seemed like it would keep the attachment at bay, even if he is attractive. Because I'm not drawn to those types (my former best friend, meanwhile, loved the arrogant lawyer/investment banker types).

So I do feel like maybe I should try a woman first. Maybe not so much the guy who got back to me with the same first name as Dr. T (but a different form as his nickname) and who also looks to be attractive? But he does schema therapy, and that was recommended to me at one point (on here I think?), so...but yeah, trying for female first. There's one who got back to me who focuses on attachment and relational issues, so she seems like a potential good fit. And appears to be younger than me.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:16 PM
  #22
I get it, i do. But i dont. He WAS THERE for you all those times. How can you say now that he wasnt, or that those times didnt count? You cant eat your cake and NOT have it too! No wait - i guess you can, i guess thats the problem? You ate the cake, you even got fat, but now youre complaining that the cake might go away, so THATS what makes the cake you already ate no good? You cant change your mind about past cake!

There is still a lot of cake on the table. From a baker you know. Isnt there? Its like youre throwing the baby out with the bath water. Sorry to mix metaphors. Why do you PRESUME you will need MORE cake?

If somebody gave you a glass of water, they arent beholden to give you a glass of water forever. They got you over a hump with one glass of water. I dont understand this talk (not just you) of now this thing that was formerly given by the t will stop and the patient will die of pain without it. It was one glass of water. No commitment from the t. Just a LESSON. A gift. Take it! Use it!
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:26 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
Isn't a therapy relationship one of the few relationships where you have the chance to explore exactly where you stand?
So they say—but it’s not where you stand with the therapist, it’s where you stand with the people that the therapist symbolizes.

A relationship with the therapist is not the goal of the therapy.

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Why do you PRESUME you will need MORE cake?
I always need more cake.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:37 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
So they say—but it’s not where you stand with the therapist, it’s where you stand with the people that the therapist symbolizes.

A relationship with the therapist is not the goal of the therapy.

And this is a big problem with Dr. T--he doesn't seem to buy into transference, so seems unwilling (or at least very uncomfortable) digging into what the therapist symbolizes. So then we get stuck in the relationship, even if I'm aware that it's likely coming from elsewhere. Because he doesn't seem open to going into the "elsewhere," saying he thinks it's between us.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:41 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
So they say—but it’s not where you stand with the therapist, it’s where you stand with the people that the therapist symbolizes.

A relationship with the therapist is not the goal of the therapy.

I always need more cake.


You guys know i watched dr phil the other day. He had a hoarder mom on who had a 12 yr old kid, and the womans parents, ie the grandparents. The grandparents were out to lunch! "We didnt know anything bad happened to her!"

Anyway, dr phil says, your house is what your head looks like inside - trash, junk. I was like, yep, exactly. Some people might overcompensate like with gold toilets ( ) others of us project. Theres no room for me here, only room for trash. But i pay the g.d. rent, how is that fair??

Anyway, just saying, it was hard to hear from dr phil of all people. But he was describing the woman's relationship with her abusers, and with her parents who never acknowledged the abuse. Also my family's attitude towards me.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:43 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
Isn't a therapy relationship one of the few relationships where you have the chance to explore exactly where you stand?

It seems like it should be... I suppose Dr. T did confirm that I'm not a burden today, in response to one of my questions. But then it's a business relationship, so...I don't know.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
So they say—but it’s not where you stand with the therapist, it’s where you stand with the people that the therapist symbolizes.

A relationship with the therapist is not the goal of the therapy.


I always need more cake.
By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 04:56 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.
Ditto.

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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 05:10 PM
  #29
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By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.

Can you explain more what you mean? Like, about the alignment in the therapeutic relationship?
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 05:59 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
Copying/pasting from the Couch:
Today's session was really rough, like rupture territory. I don't know if it's fixable or not. He said that he doesn't like having to respond to client emails, that he'd rather not do it. When he's been doing that for me for 3 years. And I said how before he'd said he considered it a part of his job. And he said (today), "We all have parts of our job that we'd rather not have to do." He said he's willing to do it for me. But would prefer not to have to in general.

Note that I'm fully aware that many T's don't do email. But this has been an agreement since the beginning that we've discussed multiple times. He never said he wished he didn't have to do it. Just that he charges for longer ones (or if I sent a whole bunch of short ones), which I accepted. The vast majority of time, he didn't charge me (even when he said it took him >15 minutes). So feel sort of deceived. And it's also very reminiscent of stuff that happened with ex-T and ex-MC regarding email, so it's particularly triggering.

And he said this is why I need to be relying on other people in my life. Because I'm never going to be satisfied with the boundaries in the therapeutic relationship.

And he also confirmed that he'd be less supportive and accepting once Covid starts going away. And would push me more. And that he knows it will be hard for me.

Plus some other stuff. Like my bringing up how he seems to get uncomfortable any time I bring up the inner child stuff, and he questioned what I meant. And I said he seemed visibly uncomfortable, always tried to use other language for it, shift the topic to something else, etc. That there's a lot I want to explore with that, but I feel I can't because of his reactions.

So...I don't know if it's fixable or not. I really appreciate all the support he's giving me during Covid. I seriously doubt many therapists would allow sessions this frequent or...well, I was going to say allow outside contact. Which I guess he does, but he just doesn't like it.

And now it also sort of feels like his greater compassion and support during Covid is just an act.

So...I think I'm at least going to look at some other T's, maybe contact a couple, have free 15-minute consults for ones that allow that. I think I need a T with a different method of working. And probably a female.
Do you think you are repeating the pattern you had last year about this time?

Do you think he is also dealing with exhaustion from the whole COVID thing. I have read multiple articles about therapists being careful not burnout. IIRC, your T charges for emails so that he doesn't resent them. But he is trying to offer you more support and emails without charge. Do you think he in an attempt to help clients more he failed to take care of himself?

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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 06:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post


You guys know i watched dr phil the other day. He had a hoarder mom on who had a 12 yr old kid, and the womans parents, ie the grandparents. The grandparents were out to lunch! "We didnt know anything bad happened to her!"

Anyway, dr phil says, your house is what your head looks like inside - trash, junk. I was like, yep, exactly. Some people might overcompensate like with gold toilets ( ) others of us project. Theres no room for me here, only room for trash. But i pay the g.d. rent, how is that fair??

Anyway, just saying, it was hard to hear from dr phil of all people. But he was describing the woman's relationship with her abusers, and with her parents who never acknowledged the abuse. Also my family's attitude towards me.
I don't want to derail LT's thread, but have you read the book Stuff by Randy Frost and Gail Steketee? It describes several people who hoard and gets into the way their backgrounds contribute to their hoarding patterns. It's a fascinating book.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 06:52 PM
  #32
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Do you think you are repeating the pattern you had last year about this time?

Do you think he is also dealing with exhaustion from the whole COVID thing. I have read multiple articles about therapists being careful not burnout. IIRC, your T charges for emails so that he doesn't resent them. But he is trying to offer you more support and emails without charge. Do you think he in an attempt to help clients more he failed to take care of himself?

Thanks. I strongly suspect he may be at least approaching burnout. Aside from one day off, he's been generally working 5-6 days a week since the end of February (the last time he took a week off). And he's said that pretty much all of his clients are doing worse with the pandemic. And he's allowing the increased contact thing for everyone. So I imagine he's somewhat overwhelmed, plus his own struggles with it.

Plus I know he's had some financial stress, as he rents a multi-office suite and leases it out to other practitioners. A couple of those are massage therapists and acupuncturists, and they couldn't practice at all (due to state regulations) in the first few months of Covid. So he said he wasn't charging them rent. He's also said he hasn't really gotten any new clients, though a few have come back. And that some have needed more reduced rates due to losing jobs (some worked in restaurants or retail). He took out some sort of pandemic loan (PPP?) to help cover that, but I get the sense he's still financially struggling (no idea if his wife works or not).


So he might need a break, but doesn't want to take it if so many clients are struggling and/or that he needs the money.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 07:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.
I don’t think that’s actually different from what I said. I just said it in pragmatic terms.

And even under that modality the goal of the therapy is still not to form a relationship with the therapist. The relationship is still in its origins artificial—not in the bad-sense way of fake, but in the good-sense way of like making graftings on plants to help them grow. The goal in that scenario is to understand your relationships with other people, not the ones with the temporary help.

Last edited by atisketatasket; Oct 08, 2020 at 07:14 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 07:25 PM
  #34
But sometimes the focus IS on the therapeutic relationship. Yes, the goal is to branch out, but with certain therapists, that relationship does not end. It's flexible. They are there (when able to) when you need them, while also promoting independence.

Maybe I'm not being clear My relationship with T and L will not end. They will be my therapist even after they retire. When they retire, I will still be allowed contact, though limited. The relationship IS real and important. It's not just a "professional" relationship as many have suggested. It's a "therapeutic" relationship which is special in its own right, and complex!

Some people don't experience therapy that way. Some don't want to or need to. And that's good for you. But others do want this and some therapists do offer it.

I am grateful that I have two therapists who will stay with me. I may out grow them, and that's okay. I may need them again, and that's okay too. Both provide different support, so I may need something else in the future.

LT - In my opinion, I don't think your Ts have met your therapeutic needs. What you need and want is out there.

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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 07:59 PM
  #35
I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories. However, I do have a newsletter and it is printed beautifully on fading carbon paper...subscribe!

Over to you, LT...what happened with trying a female therapist?
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 07:59 PM
  #36
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Ditto.
(8 characters)
Lec - yes i keep up with all the hoarding reading. But on my kindle now!

Re the t relationship - ive said, "i love you so much!" to my t also, as LT has. But for me, saying that was more of an end point, like what you say after thanksgiving dinner. Thankful for the harvest, and now you have the resources to make it thru the lean times. You dont sit there and demand more, or whine that its over. You bask in the afterglow. I remember sitting there telling him, you dont have to do anything, this is all me, im happy, i have it, youre there, im here.

Now when i watch tv, i can understand peoples feelings better. I mean, i always understood the b.s., but i never understood the soft stuff. I can almost understand it now. I can almost understand the appeal of a spa-like bathroom, for example. Almost! With room for me.

Last edited by unaluna; Oct 08, 2020 at 08:13 PM..
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 08:05 PM
  #37
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I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories. However, I do have a newsletter and it is printed beautifully on fading carbon paper...subscribe!

Over to you, LT...what happened with trying a female therapist?

So, I have a phone consult with a female one tomorrow. A potential appointment with a male T Wednesday. And then I'm waiting to hear back from another female T, who offered an intake session, but I asked if she'd be willing to do either brief phone call or answer a couple questions over email first (and if not, I'll just schedule session). The guy, he answered email questions already. I also have a few outstanding "are you taking new clients?" queries to other female T's (one did reply, but out of town for a couple weeks, so figure will check out the others first). So, we'll see...
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 08:26 PM
  #38
LT...I am curious about your reasons for therapy in the first place? You don't have to answer but it might be helpful to think about. What are your goals? Are you looking for a friend, someone to lean on, someone to validate you, someone to agree with you? Or are you looking to improve your life, feel less anxiety, and/or learn the skills needed to live comfortably on your own in real life?

I am not trying to be judgmental, my T always tells me to just look at the facts. From what I observe in your posts, I see that you often post about your T not saying what you wanted him too. This upsets you and results in emails and extra sessions. I have no idea what goes on in the session, but you post that your T often changes his stance which makes you happy again. I observe that you sign your posts with Love, LT when you state T validated you or made you feel cared for. When he does not give the response you wanted, there is no Love added.

I only bring up these observations (and this is my opinion, not fact) because it appears to me that your goal in T is to have someone to validate you and make you feel cared for, someone who agrees with you. I of course do not know you goals, but I know that the role of a T is not to tell us that everything we think, feel and want are as it should be. A T should be helping you improve yourself and helping you deal with life in the real world. This is not accomplished by agreeing with everything we do or adjusting their boundaries or opinions to make us feel better. The more your T has continued to give in to you the more attached you become and the more you expect from him. Real life does not work like that. Everyone is not going to say what you want or change their actions or opinions to satisfy your needs. Maybe that is why you are so attached. He is the only you can (sorry I can't think of a nicer word) control/manipulate into giving you what you feel you need. Is this really helpful? You have said many times that your are trying to decrease drinking but then you say your T told you to go out and have a beer. I understand the need to get out in public and do things, but that seems kind of self defeating.

I am sorry to be blunt and feel free to ignore everything I have said. It just pains me to see you reliving the same issues year after year. I am sure my desires for you are totally different than your own. I know I would like to see you be able to deal with life's dissapointments without so much anxiety. This is possible but only if a T pushes you out of your comfort zone and you allow it to happen. This would only be an option if it is truly what you want. I guess that is why I ask you to think about what you are really looking for in T.

Last edited by zoiecat; Oct 08, 2020 at 08:43 PM..
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 08:31 PM
  #39
It's interesting because my T is strongly relational and takes the perspective that our relationship is real. She feels things, I feel things, and we have a bond with each other. I tell her a lot about how I feel about her, and she tells me certain things about what she feels toward me (things that she thinks would useful for me). I think this approach is the way that I am able to really get deep into how I feel about me and what assumptions I assume the other person is making. So in that sense, she isn't a symbol but a living breathing person. She has referred to it as a two person therapy, rather than the humanist client-centered approach. But yeah, in other ways she is probably more of a symbol, especially when I pile a bunch of my mommy issues onto her and then pick a fight.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 08:42 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
Thanks. I strongly suspect he may be at least approaching burnout. Aside from one day off, he's been generally working 5-6 days a week since the end of February (the last time he took a week off). And he's said that pretty much all of his clients are doing worse with the pandemic. And he's allowing the increased contact thing for everyone. So I imagine he's somewhat overwhelmed, plus his own struggles with it.

Plus I know he's had some financial stress, as he rents a multi-office suite and leases it out to other practitioners. A couple of those are massage therapists and acupuncturists, and they couldn't practice at all (due to state regulations) in the first few months of Covid. So he said he wasn't charging them rent. He's also said he hasn't really gotten any new clients, though a few have come back. And that some have needed more reduced rates due to losing jobs (some worked in restaurants or retail). He took out some sort of pandemic loan (PPP?) to help cover that, but I get the sense he's still financially struggling (no idea if his wife works or not).


So he might need a break, but doesn't want to take it if so many clients are struggling and/or that he needs the money.

If he took a couple of weeks off and said "I need a couple fo weeks off foe my mental health" How would you repond?

I actually told my T about reading that many herapists are struggling right now and wondered how she was doing. zee has a discussion about her self care.

Also, long term T (whom I adored) and I had a conversation after I reached out about something and she mentioned it being something one usually contacts a friend about. I was hurt also but she explained that her job to help a client need her less and less not more. She felt she had let me down.

So you relationship continues with Dr. T do you find yourself needing him more or less??

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