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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 08:57 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by zoiecat View Post
The more your T has continued to give in to you the more attached you become and the more you expect from him. Real life does not work like that. Everyone is not going to say what you want or change their actions or opinions to satisfy your needs. Maybe that is why you are so attached. He is the only you can (sorry I can't think of a nicer word) control/manipulate into giving you what you feel you need. Is this really helpful? You have said many times that your are trying to decrease drinking but then you say your T told you to go out and have a beer. I understand the need to get out in public and do things, but that seems kind of self defeating.

I am sorry to be blunt and feel free to ignore everything I have said. It just pains me to see you reliving the same issues year after year. I am sure my desires for you are totally different than your own. I know I would like to see you be able to deal with life's dissapointments without so much anxiety. This is possible but only if a T pushes you out of your comfort zone and you allow it to happen. This would only be an option if it is truly what you want. I guess that is what you are really looking for in T.

Thanks, zoiecat, I'm not offended. Just quoting the part here that really resonates with me. I did actually say to him on Tuesday that I feel he's contributed to my becoming more dependent (I don't think he said much in response to that). I mean, he let me go to 2, then more recently 3 sessions a week, allows email (and without ever charging for it lately), letting me text on occasion beyond scheduling, when that's technically against the rules....

In a way, I'm angry at him because he allowed all that. He knows how ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries affected me. He knows I tend to push/test to get what I want from T's. And he's let me do that. It's stuff that feels good at the time, but I know likely doesn't help me in the end.

The thing is, in the beginning, he seemed to have really strong boundaries. So he seemed more "safe" to me, like "OK, he's not going to let me interact with him like ex-MC did." From e-mail/text boundaries to not disclosing much about himself. But then since the pandemic started, he's disclosed much more (and when I asked him about this, thinking perhaps it was intentional, he said he wasn't aware that he was disclosing more...which concerned me). The fact that he also was a jerk some of the time also helped keep me from getting too attached.

And this T has tried to push me out of my comfort zone--most recently, he's encouraged me to push past my fears and go out to an outdoor table at a restaurant. Which has helped some. But your comment on how he says I can go have a beer resonates with me. Because I'll also mention having a few beers while talking with H, and he says that's a good time to have some beers. I feel he hasn't really helped me much with drinking, even though he seems knowledgeable about substance abuse. He just seems to push that aside. He pushes for exercise, but he's also a sports psychologist, so...


Actually, one of the T's I contacted (who I'm waiting to hear back from) says her expertise is with clients with dual diagnoses of substance abuse and mood disorders. Actually, I wonder if it's a case where maybe I could see sort of a regular T (I don't mean Dr. T necessarily, just some sort of a T), then see her for the addiction part? Or maybe she does regular therapy as well. Or I just see her for a few months to work on addiction, then switch to more of a regular (non-addiction) T.

But anyway, what you said was helpful and gave me some things to think about. I do feel Dr. T enables me in various ways, whether that's replying to emails/texts in a caring way (even though he'd apparently prefer not to have to reply), letting me have however many sessions I want, reducing my rate so I can do that, not pushing me much on my drinking, etc.
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 09:34 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by nottrustin View Post
If he took a couple of weeks off and said "I need a couple fo weeks off foe my mental health" How would you repond?

I actually told my T about reading that many herapists are struggling right now and wondered how she was doing. zee has a discussion about her self care.

Also, long term T (whom I adored) and I had a conversation after I reached out about something and she mentioned it being something one usually contacts a friend about. I was hurt also but she explained that her job to help a client need her less and less not more. She felt she had let me down.

So you relationship continues with Dr. T do you find yourself needing him more or less??

This is a good question. I feel like I'd be crushed and sort of afraid if he was taking a few weeks off. I'd likely see if the T I saw when he was away earlier this year was available, but I'd be really anxious. And that's the sort of thing that makes me realize I need to pull back and/or try another T. Because what if he (or his wife or son) get Covid? Or what if he just suddenly realizes he's at some breaking point and needs a couple weeks off? I need to not be so dependent that I can handle that.

I did ask Dr. T a few months ago about burnout, because I was concerned, and he talked about practicing self-care, that he's OK. But I don't know now---are more and more clients emailing him (when they weren't before) or asking for extra sessions? Plus I know his sport was an outlet...not so sure it is now?

The thing is, in the months before Covid, I'd been doing much better in reaching out to other people, meeting friends for lunch, getting more physical exercise, going to painting events, etc. I felt I was actually getting to a place where I could reduce from two sessions a week to one, though hadn't discussed it with T yet. So I'd definitely become less dependent on him. Then Covid hit, and it was like everything fell apart. In the past...I guess 7 months now, I do feel like I've been needing him more. Where for a while, I felt like I'd been needing him less.

But part of what I said Tuesday was I felt like he'd contributed to the dependence. And he said he knows I have fewer options for support now. So he's trying to give more. But I also feel like that's fostering more dependence. And it's like I don't know how to pull away from that. And he even said Tuesday that he's not sure what the path forward for me is in terms of decreasing dependence. So if *he* doesn't even know...

So in a way, though this may not make a lot of sense (hello, insecure attachment!), it's easier for me to just pull away and try to find some other T. I still intend to see Dr. T Monday...I think? I canceled the potential session tomorrow. Or maybe I cancel Monday, have the intake with the other T Wednesday (and possibly meet with another T early in the week, too) and just wait to see him till next Friday?
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Default Oct 08, 2020 at 10:16 PM
  #43
LT, I don’t know your background or what you started going to therapy in the first place but it seems to me that many of the difficulties you are having with all your Ts are relational. If you do end up getting a new T it might be helpful to make sure it’s one who works with a relational approach and understands the importance of the therapy relationship and transference. My understanding (and my own therapy) the relationship I have with my T IS the work. It seems to me that this T doesn’t really believe that although sometimes does things that suggest he does but then really he just doesn’t... people are suggesting a female T but honestly I think many of the same attachment things will come up again and again regardless of the sex .....

My understanding (very simplified) is that for those of use with insecure attachment a relationship with a good enough T (one who is empathetic, caring , authentic but also has boundaries (as a good enough parent should have) will help us to form earned secure attachment and with that also help us with resolving many of the other difficulties stemming from this...

You have been with this T for a few years now and clearly as a lot of people would do formed an attachment to him. It makes total sense that you would want to reach out to him rather than friends in a time of crisis.

It’s strange that he thought you had a secure attachment to your old t... someone with a secure attachment to someone feels safe in the relationship and doesn’t need to reach out all the time as you trust the relationship and know that they are there..

for people with insecure attachments there is often this belief that if a T gives more that the person will want more and more and more and never stop. I don’t know if this is necessarily true... I’ve always wanted ‘more’ of my T and felt I wasn’t getting enough seeing them only once a week which seemed to fuel my transference . During COVID they made some adjustments and eased up a little on boundaries...(not too much that it was worrying but enough that it helped me realize they do care ).... this was huge for me as it allowed me to feel more secure in the relationship and actually resulted in me needing and wanting them less...i realized I was starting to trust more ... I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated .... . Not sure I’m making much sense and am rambling now so I’ll stop...but look for a T who works with attachment and transference as they seem to be big themes throughout your posts.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 06:13 AM
  #44
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 06:36 AM
  #45
Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.

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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 06:37 AM
  #46
What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 07:18 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by nottrustin View Post
Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.

Regarding whether it would be better to keep working with him, I don't know--I am still meeting with him Monday (and kept him on the schedule for next week, but I imagine I'll at least cancel Wednesday because I have the intake with another T later that afternoon).

In terms of pre-Covid ways, it isn't just the emails and session limits. It's that he also said he'd be less supportive and would push more. And now that I've seen him be more supportive, I think it would be difficult to go back to the other way.

And I really feel like there's stuff I need to work on that he's not really skilled and/or comfortable enough to do. I think I just need to try someone different for a bit, even just a few sessions, to see what it feels like. Last year, that helped me realize I did want to stay with T. This year, I don't know?
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 07:24 AM
  #48
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Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.
See, I would totally agree with that *if* Dr. T were skilled in working with dependency and attachment and transference. I worry that LT "working on" those things with Dr. T will not be productive since he tends to be dismissive (and, IMHO, not super skillfull) when he encounters those issues.

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Originally Posted by elisewin View Post
What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?
I wonder if LT might feel ambivalent about that herself? I would feel ambivalent in her position--I'd like the need-accommodating because of the closeness and the feeling like Dr. T was making an exception for me because he cares... but I'd also be afraid of the need-accomodating because I'd know that it's important for therapists to hold boundaries, keep a consistent frame, let us practice distress tolerance when we can't get what we need from the therapeutic relationship.

What say you, LT?
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 07:31 AM
  #49
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What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?

I know I don't make much sense...I think it generally comes down to wants vs. needs. I *want* him to relax his boundaries, but what I really need is for him to hold them. I *want* him to self-disclose, but what I really need is for him to keep that at a minimum. I *want* him to be flexible, but what I really need is for him to be consistent.

The wants feel good in the moment, but can also be confusing to me. Like, the increased self-disclosure, chatting about politics, joking together, things like that, those feel more friend-like (or something even more than that). And then I feel this other connection to him that's more than professional.

Things like texting and emailing, if I know he's not going to charge (or express annoyance at a text), then I'm more likely to use those things instead of being forced to find other ways to cope (or to decide if it's worth a possible charge if I email, like, how badly do I really need this?) And the three times a week, I've really appreciated in some ways, but then I was feeling scared to go back to two. It feels like he encouraged dependency. Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm autonomous and could just not accept any of those things, choose to never email, etc. But I'm not really good at doing that.


It's like how good parents need to set limits. A kid would be totally content to eat cupcakes and candy all day, but a good parent insists on having some healthy food as well. The kid won't be happy about it, but it's healthier for them. It's like I've gone from a fairly healthy diet to lots of cupcakes. Tastes good, but not so good for me in the long-term.

Does that make sense? Some of this is also tied up in my insecure attachment, push-pull stuff. Like wanting him to prove he cares, being content for a bit, then wanting more proof. Ex-MC fell into that. Dr. T seemed fairly good at holding boundaries for a long stretch, which made me feel safer, if frustrated. So now that he's been loosening, I feel less safe.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 08:24 AM
  #50
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LT, I don’t know your background or what you started going to therapy in the first place but it seems to me that many of the difficulties you are having with all your Ts are relational. If you do end up getting a new T it might be helpful to make sure it’s one who works with a relational approach and understands the importance of the therapy relationship and transference. My understanding (and my own therapy) the relationship I have with my T IS the work. It seems to me that this T doesn’t really believe that although sometimes does things that suggest he does but then really he just doesn’t... people are suggesting a female T but honestly I think many of the same attachment things will come up again and again regardless of the sex .....

My understanding (very simplified) is that for those of use with insecure attachment a relationship with a good enough T (one who is empathetic, caring , authentic but also has boundaries (as a good enough parent should have) will help us to form earned secure attachment and with that also help us with resolving many of the other difficulties stemming from this...

You have been with this T for a few years now and clearly as a lot of people would do formed an attachment to him. It makes total sense that you would want to reach out to him rather than friends in a time of crisis.

It’s strange that he thought you had a secure attachment to your old t... someone with a secure attachment to someone feels safe in the relationship and doesn’t need to reach out all the time as you trust the relationship and know that they are there..

for people with insecure attachments there is often this belief that if a T gives more that the person will want more and more and more and never stop. I don’t know if this is necessarily true... I’ve always wanted ‘more’ of my T and felt I wasn’t getting enough seeing them only once a week which seemed to fuel my transference . During COVID they made some adjustments and eased up a little on boundaries...(not too much that it was worrying but enough that it helped me realize they do care ).... this was huge for me as it allowed me to feel more secure in the relationship and actually resulted in me needing and wanting them less...i realized I was starting to trust more ... I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated .... . Not sure I’m making much sense and am rambling now so I’ll stop...but look for a T who works with attachment and transference as they seem to be big themes throughout your posts.

Thanks for these comments. I am aiming to look for a T who works with relational and attachment issues--I heard back from one who has that as one of her main focuses, so I plan to schedule an appointment with her. The guy I'm seeing (virtually) Wednesday also works with them. Less sure about the woman I'm having a brief phone consult with today, but that's something I will ask her about.

Thanks for saying it made sense I'd want to reach out to him when I was really upset. I felt hurt that he acted like I shouldn't have reached out to him. Yet responded to the actual text in a caring, supportive way anyway. But then when I asked him about it, he was saying he's not who I should have reached out to. So it's all very confusing.


Dr. T relaxing his boundaries did feel good for a while. At times, I felt we had a relative secure relationship, but also felt somewhat ill at ease because I know what's happened with him before. And at times it was like I was waiting for that other side of him to come out, the side that's colder, concerned with his own feelings and reactions, being "honest" about things without thinking of the effect it might have on me, etc. And perhaps I was trying to draw it out, say, by texting when I knew I shouldn't. Then it's like I was confused when that side initially *didn't* come out.

But then hearing that he will basically go back to how he was--being less supportive and pushing more (he said this yesterday), plus the email/text stuff--once Covid goes away was hard to hear. Because part of me thought it wasn't necessarily just Covid that had led him to shift how he acted toward me--I thought it was that he'd deepened in his caring toward me, perhaps even to the level of (platonic) love. And whether he was conscious of it or not, that he was showing that in how he acted. So I think hearing it's just because of Covid and can get pulled away (combined with his preferring not to have to do email at all) just hurt. Like, it's not me, it's Covid. (If that makes any sense!)

This part of your comment rings especially true for me: "I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated"

For a long time, Dr. T mostly held his boundaries. Sometimes he would admit an email reply took more than 15 minutes (his threshold for charging), but he decided not to charge me. Which felt nice, but also, inconsistent. With the texts, he has always allowed them for scheduling. But one time in the first year of seeing him, I texted asking for an earlier appointment and included the explanation that my uncle had passed away. He said in session that the text had been "intrusive," that I should just ask for an extra session without any explanation. So I tended to do that in the future. But then sometimes he'd ask if I was OK, so I'd reply briefly what was up, which he was fine with or add that I could email to explain the request if I wanted. And later he said it is fine to explain the reason for an appointment request in a text. So, very inconsistent.

And inconsistent boundaries were a big part of the problem with ex-MC. Dr. T *knows* this. Which I think is why he was trying to be so consistent with boundaries in the beginning (he even said he intentionally disclosed less to me because ex-MC disclosed a lot, and he thinks that may have contributed to the transference). Dr. T's boundaries were painful, and I thought about leaving a few times early on, but I knew they were good for me, so I stayed. But now the looser boundaries seem to be hurting me...even though some of it feels good in the moment.

OK, now I'm totally rambling, so I'll stop!
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 08:58 AM
  #51
I don't think the issue is that he changed his boundaries as I think some flexibility and responding to what a client needs at different times is good. I think the issue here is him saying suddenly that he is going to take it (the support and extra contact) away after COVID....It's jarring.. and almost triggering for someone with abandonment issues (not saying you have but I know I do and that's how I'd respond to that) ...It might have perhaps been helpful if he had outlined his boundary changes at the start...i.e I will allow more contact just during COVID as I know things are more difficult for you right now and I want to be able to give you more support but once things settle down again with COVID I will have to reign it back to what we are doing now or something like that or even just brought the topic up more gently and included you in the conversation. It also feels like he has all the control and you have none (yes I know thats the dynamic of the therapist client relationship) but it could have been a more collaborative conversation where you felt you had some input.....

My T gave me a little bit more (i.e a reduced rate) and more in between session contact at the beginning of COVID when I lost my job and when everything was shut down and I needed more support . She did however say that it could only be for a short while so I knew it would have to end at some point. I have now started back at work again and we have now gone back to how things were. Even though the decision really fully rested with her she somehow made it feel like I had an input. It was extermely difficult at first and it's oh so frustrating as I want to see her more but I'm slowly getting used to the boundary again. It will however take time I am sure.

The fact he gave you more support highlights that he does care about you LT and wants to help YOU. He also may have done it because he is a therapist who wants to help and support all of his clients in times of crisis . Those two things can exist together. He now seems to be wearing his therapist hat more again, I think lots of people, therapsits included, started to soften more especially at the start of COIVD (in all walks of life as they realised our collective humanity and how there is lots we can't control) ....

It seems you don't always trust in the relationship or the care which is again totally understandable given your past experiences and perhaps even your childhood ones. It can take years for someone who has difficulty trusting to regain that sense of trust in others. It seems here that you had started to trust him and the relationship but him saying what he said has wiped that all out for you. Again understandable.....But him wanting to reign things in a little again does not mean he doesn't care. Consistency and clarity here though would have been helpful..I don't know I'm beginning to ramble again...I wouldn't just run away to another T without discussing things more with Dr T though and hearing what he has to say.. There could be benefit to sticking with him and working through it....In the long term though I just think he doesn't really 'get it' the attachment stuff that is and you may do better with a more relational T who gives you a little bit more and is able to hold all of you feelings with clear, consistent boundaries and help you realise that you are not too much.

Last edited by snowangel17; Oct 09, 2020 at 09:11 AM..
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 09:24 AM
  #52
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But then hearing that he will basically go back to how he was--being less supportive and pushing more (he said this yesterday), plus the email/text stuff--once Covid goes away was hard to hear. Because part of me thought it wasn't necessarily just Covid that had led him to shift how he acted toward me--I thought it was that he'd deepened in his caring toward me, perhaps even to the level of (platonic) love. And whether he was conscious of it or not, that he was showing that in how he acted. So I think hearing it's just because of Covid and can get pulled away (combined with his preferring not to have to do email at all) just hurt. Like, it's not me, it's Covid. (If that makes any sense!)
This part stands out a bit to me...and maybe why you are finding this so painful...You are equating him taking it all away as meaning he didn't care at all which is very black and white thinking....and doesn't have to be true...From you post and the way it reads he sounds quite cold in how he said it...I wonder was that how it was in the session for you? Was he cold and abrupt in how he said it? If so there are many reasons he could be pulling back or wanting to reign it in again.... It also sounds like you were also starting to perhaps fantasize that him giving you more of him meant that he may have started to have deeper feelings for you or even perhaps start to love you...(platonically or otherwise). Taking it away or saying that he doesn't even like emailing has killed this fantasize and that can be painful...Not saying he doesn't have some loving feelings towards you but it would be nomal here for you to want them to be more than what they could be (i.e romantic feelings)

You mentioned him saying that he doesn't even like emailing and how hutful you find that...Again totally understandable to be hurt by that comment but him not liking emailing doesn't necessarily mean he was resenting you or faking care about you when he did email. I actually think it shows he cared...to do something he doesn't really like doing because he knows your found it helpful or needed that support...Not all therapists offer emails so he doesn't have to.....
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 09:33 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by chihirochild View Post
See, I would totally agree with that *if* Dr. T were skilled in working with dependency and attachment and transference. I worry that LT "working on" those things with Dr. T will not be productive since he tends to be dismissive (and, IMHO, not super skillfull) when he encounters those issues.

Yes, this is what I worry about, too.

Of course, I just caved and asked if I could in fact still have 30 minutes today, because I'm just sitting here crying while attempting to get work done.

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Originally Posted by chihirochild View Post
I wonder if LT might feel ambivalent about that herself? I would feel ambivalent in her position--I'd like the need-accommodating because of the closeness and the feeling like Dr. T was making an exception for me because he cares... but I'd also be afraid of the need-accomodating because I'd know that it's important for therapists to hold boundaries, keep a consistent frame, let us practice distress tolerance when we can't get what we need from the therapeutic relationship.

What say you, LT?

I definitely have some ambivalence going on. Some of what he was doing was making me feel special and, yes, like he truly cares, maybe about me as a person rather than just a client. But, then, OK, I briefly feel special, then he mentions that he might be confusing me with another client, and it sort of comes crashing down. And then it's like I feel worse, because I had the illusion of being special for a bit.

and like you said, if he accommodates my needs, then I don't need to work on distress tolerance so much. But then he also seems critical of me for not working on distress tolerance more... I feel like he helped create this dependence in some ways. (Sort of like how ex-MC did, too--in his case, allowing (free) phone calls, plus texts and emails.) The other problem is, then I get used to it, so, if one time he doesn't give me something (replying the the email about the doctor's--which led to the text), then it hurts or feels like a rejection. Where if he holds consistent boundaries, then it would be easier for me. And he *was* fairly consistent in the beginning, which made him feel safer than ex-MC.

Now he seems much less safe. And now I feel rejected and have the instinct to run away...which maybe is the right instinct. But I still need to talk to him about it first.

Last edited by LonesomeTonight; Oct 09, 2020 at 09:52 AM..
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 10:37 AM
  #54
LT - I can relate to the feeling of things being taken away after COVID. L and I have been doing "I love yous" after every session. We only started doing that since COVID. She also let me borrow her blanket for this time. I know it's hers, but if/when she takes it away, I'm going to be heartbroken. And I lent her a bracelet of mine so she would have a part of me. I don't want her to give it back even though the charm is expensive (it's a micro Amigurumi elephant).

I also understand about being frustrated and lost(?) without having solid boundaries. L and I have been starting to talk about her boundaries. They don't make any sense to me. She says it's not about me, but it's hard not to take it personally. She's supposed to clearly explain to me her boundaries sometime soon. I actually confronted her if her boundaries were ethical. She said they are. Was scary as hell to ask that because what if she took something away?

I know that doesn't necessarily help you. Just wanted to relate to you so you know you're not the only one.

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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 12:41 PM
  #55
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Can you explain more what you mean? Like, about the alignment in the therapeutic relationship?
How we each position ourselves in response to the other - our individual responses and instincts, and how this shapes our relationship. For example, if I attack her, she defends herself. In your instance, it might be that as you reach out to your therapist, he withdraws. Once we learn more about that mechanism between us, we can align ourselves differently. I might not need to attack if I can articulate that I want to attack and so she doesn't need to defend herself, we have adjusted to a more open and compassionate position. It is not always about being perfectly attuned (this is certainly true for me as I struggle to be in relationship with others), but the misalignment is equally useful, if painful.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 12:55 PM
  #56
So, the 30-minute session today was actually really helpful, and I think we understand each other more now. He was glad I requested to talk because he saw how in distress I was and didn't want me to have to hold onto that until Monday. More later--need to do work.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 01:06 PM
  #57
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I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories.
I don't think this is a semantic issue, you are describing categorical differences.

I am not suggesting that a relationship with the therapist is the therapy goal. However, there are approaches where the relationship is an integral part of achieving the client's goal. It doesn't matter if the relationship is temporary or paid-for; the client gathers information about themselves from its dynamic, fractures and connections. And then change can happen, which is almost always the goal of therapy in some form.

I don't think that the relationship is as vital in CBT and might be used differently in psychodynamic therapy where transferences and projections could be central.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 03:14 PM
  #58
Scarlet, I mentioned your analogy comparing Dr. T replying to emails to H doing dishes when he doesn't like it because I'm sick or busy. As a show of caring. And he really liked the comparison.
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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 05:13 PM
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So, the 30-minute session today was actually really helpful, and I think we understand each other more now. He was glad I requested to talk because he saw how in distress I was and didn't want me to have to hold onto that until Monday. More later--need to do work.
Glad to hear you talked. Do you still plan to talk to the other Ts?

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Default Oct 09, 2020 at 06:14 PM
  #60
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Glad to hear you talked. Do you still plan to talk to the other Ts?

This is what I'm debating...I'd already canceled the phone consult with one female therapist, but that was partly because from looking at her website, she didn't seem like the right fit for me (I'd only looked at her Psychology Today profile before contacting her--lots more info on her website).

I technically have an intake with the one guy Wednesday, but I'm very torn on that (we had an email exchange, and he seemed promising). If I'm thinking of staying with Dr. T, it seems weird to do an intake (and it would be an actual intake session). Like not a good use of my money/time or the T's time. One thought I had was to be honest with that T and see if he might be willing to do a consult instead? Or if I should cancel the session, and see if he'd be open to seeing me in the future?

Another woman had offered me a session, I asked if I could do brief phone call or email to see about fit first. She said today that I could, but I haven't gotten back to her yet.

I think I'm just wondering how much sense it makes to be changing T's in the middle of a pandemic, when I feel in need of lots of support. Even though it may not be his favorite thing, Dr. T allows email (he explained more today). He's willing to see me 3 times a week if I want (I guess 3.5 times this week...) and tends to be flexible with rescheduling. If I switch to someone new right now, first, they won't really know me. And I have no idea if they'd be willing to meet more than once a week, even if just to begin with to sort of wean me back down. Or if they allow any outside contact. I suppose I could just ask them that...

But I guess part of it, too, is that with the guy, I think I'd be doing schema therapy. I'm dealing with lots of other stressors right now due to Covid (my daughter being a major one). Do I really want to undertake a method that delves deep into childhood stuff right now? (He also does EMDR, incidentally.) I mean, I think it's probably work I should do eventually. But I wonder if now is the right time, when my emotional resources are already stretched really thin?

Also, these T's are only seeing people virtually right now (which I completely understand), and I worry it will be difficult to forge some sort of bond without meeting them in person. Like maybe I'd rather wait until it's considered safe in my area to do in-person therapy to try someone new?

It may seem like I'm making excuses. But I do feel much better after talking to Dr. T today and could sense his dedication to working with me. He really thought he'd told me all that stuff about email before, but that maybe it just wasn't as starkly? Then I said not really, I didn't think he had, maybe little bits about it, but not as clear. So to me it felt like mostly new information, while he felt like he was just reiterating something he'd said before.

I probably should have tried to work it out with him before contacting other T's. But part of me just felt so wounded that it felt easier/less painful to look for other options. And that gave me something to focus on. I figure I'll think about it for a day or two then get back to the T's.

Thoughts? Do I still go to the (virtual) intake? If no, do I say it's because I'm working things out with my T? (I had just said I was seeing a T and wanted a change) And ask if I could potentially contact him again in the future? Or do I say I think I'd rather wait until I can meet a new T in person? Or ask about a possible consult vs. intake? And what about the woman? (The one that I canceled with, I said I didn't think she was the right fit.)

ETA: A complication of the scheduled session is that it's the same day, though a couple hours later, than my currently scheduled Dr. T session. I doubt I'd want to do two in one day (and am pretty confident my insurance wouldn't be good with that--both out of network), so I'd likely want to cancel with Dr. T. But I wouldn't want to tell him I'm seeing another T. As I worry it would seem manipulative. So...
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