[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

Even though I don't like this saying because of my intense attachment to people, I was once told the "Therapist are like politicians: they should be swapped out every once in awhile". What she meant is that there are seasons when we need one T, seasons where we need a different T, and seasons where we don't need any T. Just because you don't need a specific T anymore, doesn't make it a bad thing. And like I mentioned before, a good T will leave the door open even if the client needs to move one.

I know T has left her door open for me. And L will do the same when my time with her comes to an end. I HATE thinking about it. I HATE chamge, and I always get extremely attached to most my Ts. I think I'm most attached to L, so it's going to be really hard when it's time to leave her.

Thanks, Scarlet. Dr. T has said before that if a client leaves, they're always welcome to come back. So I wonder if maybe I need to go do some relational/inner child work with someone, then maybe return to him? I don't know...

[LonesomeTonight]

I guess I'm thinking to myself, OK, Dr. T has given me all this support during the pandemic. He's really helped me get through this time, including with the extra sessions and being more empathetic and everything. But then I also think how some of the conflicts, mainly the one of this past week, have caused me *more* stress. And that's the last thing I need right now. Also, if he met my needs better (or did better at teaching me to meet my own needs), maybe once or twice a week would be enough for me right now. Because part of me thinks it would be difficult to find another T to give me this many sessions--especially considering Dr. T gives me a reduced rate--or even if just one or two sessions a week, to have the flexibility to be able to add an extra session when I want one. Or that I wouldn't be able to find another T who'd allow email. But maybe with the right T, I'd have less of a need for those things? Or maybe I could find a T who does email (or phone or text) but doesn't also tell their client that they'd rather not do it...

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I guess I'm thinking to myself, OK, Dr. T has given me all this support during the pandemic. He's really helped me get through this time, including with the extra sessions and being more empathetic and everything. But then I also think how some of the conflicts, mainly the one of this past week, have caused me *more* stress. And that's the last thing I need right now. Also, if he met my needs better (or did better at teaching me to meet my own needs), maybe once or twice a week would be enough for me right now. Because part of me thinks it would be difficult to find another T to give me this many sessions--especially considering Dr. T gives me a reduced rate--or even if just one or two sessions a week, to have the flexibility to be able to add an extra session when I want one. Or that I wouldn't be able to find another T who'd allow email. But maybe with the right T, I'd have less of a need for those things? Or maybe I could find a T who does email (or phone or text) but doesn't also tell their client that they'd rather not do it...

I think the only way to know any of this is to try it and see.

[Salmon77]

Or that I wouldn't be able to find another T who'd allow email. But maybe with the right T, I'd have less of a need for those things? Or maybe I could find a T who does email (or phone or text) but doesn't also tell their client that they'd rather not do it...

I'm wondering why email is so important. I mean, obviously you like to write a lot, and it's good to get the thoughts out on paper/screen/etc, and it's good to feel like somebody's listening. But it also seems to be the source of a lot of stress and anxiety (is he going to write back, why hasn't he written yet, how long is his answer, is it adequate, did he want to write or was it a chore etc. etc.) and misunderstandings. Can't help but think it might be better to just talk in session and avoid a bunch of unnecessary complications.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I think the only way to know any of this is to try it and see.

True...I did write back to the guy I have the intake with Wednesday to ask if he'd be willing to do a consult instead at first. But this was a bit ago and it's Saturday, so no idea when I'd hear back. I said I was also willing to just do the regular intake if he'd prefer. Of course, now I'm worried he'll think I'm too complicated or annoying and be like "never mind."

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

I'm wondering why email is so important. I mean, obviously you like to write a lot, and it's good to get the thoughts out on paper/screen/etc, and it's good to feel like somebody's listening. But it also seems to be the source of a lot of stress and anxiety (is he going to write back, why hasn't he written yet, how long is his answer, is it adequate, did he want to write or was it a chore etc. etc.) and misunderstandings. Can't help but think it might be better to just talk in session and avoid a bunch of unnecessary complications.

I think I just like having some sort of outside contact or the ability to schedule an extra session. I guess it's just I'm used to having the outside contact for the last like 7 years (didn't really email ex-T till a couple years in), so would be hard to go cold turkey. Especially if it went from 3 sessions a week and outside contact to 1 session a week and no outside contact. it's like I'd want to be able to wean down. I can just have trouble sitting with feelings, and I know that's a skill I need to work on. But it's also easier (in the case of a difficult or upsetting session) if I know I'm having another session in 2 days vs. in 6 days.


I think the T I'm supposed to meet with Wednesdays does have the option of longer sessions (listed on website--60 or 90 minutes), so depending on his schedule, that could be a possibility and could be easier for me as a transition if it had to be once a week.

I suppose you're right, that the best thing ultimately for me would be no outside contact at all. But again, I think cold turkey would be extremely hard, especially when I'm struggling more than usual due to the pandemic (with fewer outside support/coping options).

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

I'm wondering why email is so important.

Agreed. There is a place in some therapy for email and text, so I am not judging it. That being said, it is meant to help you. This doesn't seem to help but bring up more issues. Is it a test of him still being there? His level of caring? His willingness to to be available for you ?

I know email has been that way for me. A test of how much people are there for me Or my anxiety to confirm someone is not gone.

Your relationship with Dr T reminds me of the insecure attachments I have had in the past. I ultimately moved on and, in time, have worked towards some real therapy. Discussing ways to meet my needs while working to reduce the anxious parts

You are paying for him to help you and I guess what you need to believe is that he is.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I can see that. I think maybe it is like parenting in some ways. There are times when my kid needs me and I would prefer that she didn't (when I am sound asleep certainly springs to mind!), so I suppose putting my needs aside to tend to her is a bit of a chore in that moment. But there are other times when I want to help her because I know a small amount of attention will have a huge impact for her, and those types of interactions often feel good to me too. For example, the other night my kid was in bed and I was relaxing in the other room, and I could hear her coughing and grumbling and then start to cry a little. I think she would have probably gone back to sleep on her own (because we do encourage developmentally appropriate self-soothing), but I went into her room and picked her up because I knew some cuddles would have a big impact while she was sick and miserable. And I was right.

I went into parenthood knowing that there would be times when I had to do things I didn't want to do, and I did it anyway because the pros outweighed the cons for me. I think therapists who allow outside contact within thoughtful boundaries and limits are kind of the same way. If it was a huge annoying burden to them, they just wouldn't do it.

I do think one difference is the message that the therapist sends. I am under no illusions that my T is always waiting for my call and feels absolutely thrilled with our interaction afterward (thinking especially of times when I was particularly angry with her!). I have no way of knowing when she's busy or tired or if it's a particularly bad time, much like my kid didn't know whether I was idly relaxing or busy or asleep the other night. But one of my deep-seated issues is thinking my needs are incredibly unreasonable and make me unlovable, so it wouldn't really be helpful for my T to share those times when it was a bit of a chore. That would probably be a very different story if I felt as though I were entitled to whatever I wanted from whoever whenever. (Same thing with my kid: I weigh her needs and my needs and try to do justice to us both, but figuring out that balance is my job and not hers.)

For me the fear of interrupting whatever T is doing is one of my major issues with outside contact . I imagine her being in the middle of something and seeing my message and thinking "not again". She says that is never the issue. If I contacted her all the time in crisis then we would need to discuss it. The other thing that helps me is she is always honest.. I know she has a separate number for work related calls/texts. When she is busy she doesn't heck it. There have been times she knew I ddint need a phone call but hoping for a a response saying she recieved it. It has been really late when she got the message so didn't respond then not forgot after that.

Once I asked her of we could talk. She told me honestly that she has just got home from a weekend of hiking and was exhausted so could we talk the next morning. Initially it stung but I Would rather she ne homest about what is going on so I do not question everything.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I can see that. I think maybe it is like parenting in some ways. There are times when my kid needs me and I would prefer that she didn't (when I am sound asleep certainly springs to mind!), so I suppose putting my needs aside to tend to her is a bit of a chore in that moment. But there are other times when I want to help her because I know a small amount of attention will have a huge impact for her, and those types of interactions often feel good to me too. For example, the other night my kid was in bed and I was relaxing in the other room, and I could hear her coughing and grumbling and then start to cry a little. I think she would have probably gone back to sleep on her own (because we do encourage developmentally appropriate self-soothing), but I went into her room and picked her up because I knew some cuddles would have a big impact while she was sick and miserable. And I was right.

I went into parenthood knowing that there would be times when I had to do things I didn't want to do, and I did it anyway because the pros outweighed the cons for me. I think therapists who allow outside contact within thoughtful boundaries and limits are kind of the same way. If it was a huge annoying burden to them, they just wouldn't do it.

I do think one difference is the message that the therapist sends. I am under no illusions that my T is always waiting for my call and feels absolutely thrilled with our interaction afterward (thinking especially of times when I was particularly angry with her!). I have no way of knowing when she's busy or tired or if it's a particularly bad time, much like my kid didn't know whether I was idly relaxing or busy or asleep the other night. But one of my deep-seated issues is thinking my needs are incredibly unreasonable and make me unlovable, so it wouldn't really be helpful for my T to share those times when it was a bit of a chore. That would probably be a very different story if I felt as though I were entitled to whatever I wanted from whoever whenever. (Same thing with my kid: I weigh her needs and my needs and try to do justice to us both, but figuring out that balance is my job and not hers.)

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think I just like having some sort of outside contact or the ability to schedule an extra session. I guess it's just I'm used to having the outside contact for the last like 7 years (didn't really email ex-T till a couple years in), so would be hard to go cold turkey. Especially if it went from 3 sessions a week and outside contact to 1 session a week and no outside contact. it's like I'd want to be able to wean down. I can just have trouble sitting with feelings, and I know that's a skill I need to work on. But it's also easier (in the case of a difficult or upsetting session) if I know I'm having another session in 2 days vs. in 6 days.


I think the T I'm supposed to meet with Wednesdays does have the option of longer sessions (listed on website--60 or 90 minutes), so depending on his schedule, that could be a possibility and could be easier for me as a transition if it had to be once a week.

I suppose you're right, that the best thing ultimately for me would be no outside contact at all. But again, I think cold turkey would be extremely hard, especially when I'm struggling more than usual due to the pandemic (with fewer outside support/coping options).

Forgive me if I am wrong but wasn't email one of the major issues with your rupture last year?

Last year when you and T repaired your rupture you and T made compromises which included him giving in on some things that were very important things for you. Is it possible you are trying to see if his willing to give in on other things this year as well? After the repair work you felt cared for and cared for by T, did that go away or is it not e nought now. Does he need to do more this year?

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I think it's partially because he doesn't embrace or acknowledge the "child" side of LT. He only views and communicates with the "adult" LT, so he's not meeting her where she's at. Probably also why LT has a push/pull relationship with him.

Could be. I have a push pull relationship with mine, but she's very into that sort of thing (dissecting child stuff). I'm push pull not because of her but because I have a disorganized attachment style that makes me feel constantly conflicted.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Bit late to the party, didn't find time until now.
But I really wanted to point out one thing:
I think no matter what therapist you find, it's always going to be the case that the relationship on some levels changes and is not always the same. This is true for therapists and for all other people in your life.

It's quite normal for people to change their boundaries sometimes. While I do think your T maybe was a bit too accommodating of what you want, I'd say it would surprise me if there are a lot of Ts that never budge on any of their boundaries.

If I take my T as an example, while most of his boundaries are pretty consistent, some have changed for a while and then gone back as well. One time he responded to a text of mine on his day off - something he claims to almost never do. Another time he mentioned something his daughter is struggling with, while being normally pretty clear about the fact that he doesn't share such things with clients, up until then I didn't even know whether he had a daughter or a son. He has also told me that early on he didn't want to give me two sessions a week (apart from emergency ones) due to being scared I'd get too dependent, but when he realized I really needed it, he offered it without me even asking.

Relationships aren't a strict set of rules that always stays the same. Sometimes the boundaries need to change for a while. The same goes for example for trust, sometimes you trust somebody more, sometimes less. I'm not surprised your T changed some things due to Covid. Lots of people need more support than usual right now and that's what he's there for. And not charging them for every email is considerate, given that lots of people are losing their jobs. But it's also pretty normal for these things to go away again once the issue at hand is resolved. When I didn't need two sessions a week anymore, we agreed to stop and they went away. My T only ever responded once on his day off, and so on...

I do agree that your T is maybe not very good at helping you deal with that side of relationships. He tends to give in or take things away, but he doesn't help you deal with the how you feel about it, it seems. But I think it's important to understand that with other Ts, they might be better with helping you deal with it, but it's still going to happen to some degree.

[zoiecat]

LT...I haven't kept up with the posts but ai just saw thiscartivle that may help you.

Research-backed coping strategies for pandemic uncertainty

I observe you saying you are afraid to switch therapist because they may not allow more contact during but they made out of outside contact. You also state that you don't think you can go down to fewer sessions or you write an email the night before and if you still feel that way the next morning you send it or you ask for an extra session because you can't wait two or three days until the next scheduled session.

I wonder if the larger part of your problems it's not necessarily with the relationship itself but with distress tolerance. In real life people always have disagreements there's always going to be things that were left unsaid and after thoughts a why didn't I say this oh why did they say this.

I know your therapist always accommodates that for you but I wonder if he's doing you a disservice. As a therapist I would hope that he would start helping you deal with your distress tolerance so that you wouldn't require those extra emails are those extra sessions. If he is not going to bring that up on his own maybe you should ask.

I know it is not fun to work on this subject but believe me it does help in the long run. There is so much more to distress tolerance then just trying to self soothe by going for a walk or watching a TV show.

Distress tolerance requires learning skills and it takes a lot of practice. It includes some CBT, DBT, mindfulness and muscle relaxation. You also might want to try some apps like Calm, Shine and Headspace. I use all 3 and it feels great to be able to come to session and tell my T about a new technique I learned. It shows him that I am putting in the work on my side as well. Sorry if I'm sounding pushy but I really think these skills would help you.

[LonesomeTonight]

OK, I feel like I'm taking over the Couch, so I'm resurrecting this thread. Will post more in a bit.

[LonesomeTonight]

Reading the last post in this thread, from October 2020, it's oddly fitting for now. Which shows I clearly have recurring issues and that they haven't been resolved. I know part of that is me, but I feel part of it is Dr. T, too. Where, lately, he might tell me something is irritating, but not really explore the *why* behind what I'm doing. Like this most recent email--we talked about it some, but it still seemed more focused on *his* reaction (and my reaction to his reaction), as opposed to the reasons behind why I did it and what's going on with those.


At least with the recent text check-ins about whether we were in-person or virtual, we did address the "why" some more, and he gave me an alternate way to know he's there in person--to check for his car in the lot (he then told me which one it was, as I didn't know, and where he parks, as it's a pretty big lot). I'm still not sure we fully explored the "why" behind it though, as I think it ties into general fears of being forgotten--not just by him, but by anyone.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I might be completely off with my thoughts, but I'll still share. To me, it seems that your T has some unresolved issues himself surrounding certain topics that tend to come up in your therapy and maybe that is why the "why do I do certain things" cannot be addressed.

Take the recent incident with the emails as an example. I can in some way understand both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I'd probably have fears similar to yours, that suddenly in-person sessions fall away and so on. On the other hand, I would probably be bothered by constant check-ins if I were Dr. T. For you as the client it's in a way important to hear that something like this can be annoying. It's probably something you struggle with in other areas of life as well and being told how you make others feel is useful. You can only start change if you realize there is a problem, so being made aware of such things is good. However, in your therapy it often seems to stop there. Which I think stems from the fact that he doesn't fully understand how and why it affects him the way he does, so a) he can't tell you why it might bother somebody, just that it does, and b) he doesn't seem to be able to look past his own emotions.

Let's for a moment imagine he was fully aware of his part in this. Say, his mom was very controlling and always checked in on him multiple times a day and he has come to terms with the fact that this makes him more jumpy, and he has learned to distance himself from his mom. In this case, I think when he got bothered, he could first analyse whether it stems from his own stuff. He then could say that yes, it does affect him more because of his story, but even so such checkins are bothersome at some point and boundaries can be established. He'd then bring it up to you, explain how other people might react when they constantly get such emails and lead you to discuss why you even feel the need and different skills that will help you without having to check the session is still happening (as well as similar things with others). At no point would it be "I am annoyed by the constant emails" and more "such emails can be annoying, we should work on you relying less on them".

What instead seems to happen is that he becomes aware of his emotions, but doesn't actually really know why they happen or how it affects your work. It's not "oh, a reminder of my mom again, okay, it's not LTs fault, but there's stuff there that we should work on" and instead he gets reminded of his mom without even knowing, projects parts on you and doesn't realize, tells you that it's annoying and doesn't want to really go any further because he doesn't fully understand his own reaction.

It kind of reminds me of the story with the stone. There, he didn't seem aware of either the fact that people use transitional objects or that he wouldn't like the idea of it being a reminder of him to you. If he did understand those two factors, he could have either said "I'm not comfortable with it" before giving the stone and establish a boundary, or thought to himself okay, this is one of my issues, but people do this all the time, let's try it and see how it goes for her. Instead, he only realized his emotions after the fact and didn't seem to have any awareness of how to handle it.

[LonesomeTonight]

You make some really good points here, CNS. Will reply more later, but I think you're onto something here. I also know he hasn't done much personal therapy. I asked him early on, and he gave an odd look and said, "Well, as part of my grad school program I had to." But it seems like he only did what was required. So I don't think he's overly aware of how his own stuff affects things.

In terms of boundaries, this is a really random thing, but I think of one time when he randomly mentioned "I don't let my wife go in my dresser drawers," like not to put away laundry or anything. Or how his sister-in-law asked his wife after like 7 years if it was OK to give him a hug because he gave off a standoffish vibe (he was OK with the hug). I feel like he just has really strong "keep away" boundaries about certain things, in both his personal and professional life, more so than most people I've known do. (Meanwhile, apparently he's completely fine having a phone conversation with his wife in front of me.) I feel like that likely stems from *something.* But he probably feels like other people have too loose boundaries.

[Rive.]

I think the gist of it is that your T is not, or does not practise within a relational framework whereas this is how you seem to 'operate'. In this way, I think you are stretching, expanding - even challenging him in a way he isn't used to. He seems to have a more 'narrow' way of doing therapy. I wonder if he has many clients like you, hence he must feel out of his depth. I get the feeling that his way of doing therapy is sometimes... trial-and-error and fumbling his way forward with you. I believe he is learning a lot from you because you are making him a better therapist. Why? You are helping him gain awareness that therapy is more complex and in-depth than how he practises. The problem is that teaching him to do his job better is not your job. He is not doing the same for you i.e. he is not stretching or challenging you. Instead, it feels like he lets you down.

I am not saying you are a problem client but that he is not trained to go deep, be (self)-reflective and meet you where you are at. He seems more 'reactive' and at times harsh. I mean, I believe therapists should to be able to express how they feel e.g. hurt or even angry at a client. The problem is that your T does this in a non-therapeutic way. If a T is not careful, it can be shaming. I don't know if he makes you feel ashamed but some of his comments to you (e.g. his recent annoyance) seem to me quite blunt and even hurtful. That shows, to me, his limitations with regards to navigating the interpersonal dynamics inherent in this work. There is a way for a T to express their anger or boundary-crossing (or whatever) with a client but in a spirit of curiosity and in non-shaming way. He doesn't seem to know how to do that....

Sometimes it feels you are both speaking different languages because he cannot meet you where you are at. I feel he is lucky to have a client like you in that you are 'teaching' him to be a better therapist. But, again, that is not your job... It doesn't seem that he is giving you what you need. To do so, he would need to 'stretch' more and I wonder if he can do that, as it doesn't seem to be a brand of therapy he practises,

Just my 2p - feel free to ignore the essay.

[LonesomeTonight]

Rive, I agree with quite a bit of what you said, so thanks for sharing. I think what is so difficult for me at times--like now--is that it does seem like he's come to understand me and be the therapist I need. Maybe not the one I want, but the one I need. Where he's adapted and been more flexible and seems to *get* things that he didn't understand a few years ago.

And then something like this happens, and I wonder if he understands at all? Or if his comfort is the most important thing. In talking to him Monday, when we were initially repairing the rupture, I made a comment about that. How it seemed like it was more about his comfort than mine, but I guess for him, that of course is the most important thing, like why wouldn't it be? But I said his "mild irritation," as he put it, with the check-ins, presumably didn't involve him laying awake in the middle of the night crying. Though I said I also felt very selfish for saying that. Like it's not fair to expect him to not say anything to me if he's irritated because I might get really upset.

I'm trying to recall what he said to that. I think he sort of agreed with me? In the sense of, it's not fair to tell someone not to share how they're feeling because it might upset the other person. Though he said I wasn't being selfish.

One of the things jumping out at me right now, too, is how he said he knows I'm going through a lot of stress right now (H's surgery, stuff with D's assessments and school), so he's "giving me grace." If this is what "grace" looks like, what would he be doing otherwise???

May respond more later, too. Those were just some initial thoughts.

[ElectricManatee]

I agree with Rive and want to add that relationally oriented therapy in particular has a reasonably high risk of going terribly wrong, even in the best of circumstances. My T had/has a ton of training, extensive supervision, and a circle of supportive colleagues and she still injured me pretty badly with a mistake at one point. It's messy, complicated stuff that requires the therapist to be well-trained, emotionally aware, and professionally supported. In a way, Dr. T is doing right by you by refusing to go beyond the scope of his practice. The little bits of conflict that have happened around relationally oriented concepts is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the pain this kind of thing can unleash.

[stopdog]

Do you have clear defined reasons for therapy and are you working on those with this guy and getting anywhere or not? He isn't a psychodynamic therapist from what you have said so expecting him to act like one seems to me like beating your head against a wall. I understand where he is coming from on this sort of thing even though I doubt I could tolerate him for more than 2 minutes for other reasons.