[LonesomeTonight]

So, I'm trying to process some stuff from my last Dr. T session. (For those who don't know, "Dr. T" came from his insisting early on that I refer to him as "Dr. [last name]" instead of by his first name, because if a client refers to him by his first name, then he ends up talking more about himself. Or something like that.)

I think I'll need to post this in sections, or else it will become a novel. As a bit of a Dr. T update, things have generally been good between us since I left briefly (after a couple ruptures in a row) and came back last September. And he's been particularly supportive during the pandemic, being much more empathetic than usual, self-disclosing more, never charging for emails, agreeing to a reduced rate so I could see him 3 times a week (instead of 2), etc.

But then this past Monday's session, there were a few things he said that bothered me. One was his prefacing something with, "It's possible I have you confused with another client, and if I do, I'm sorry" (was regarding whether I'd intended to cut back on social media, which wasn't really accurate?).

And then a big part was--OK, I'm unsure how people will react to it--but texting him last week when I was really stressed about a doctor's appointment, when he's not generally OK with texting aside from scheduling. But he hadn't replied to an email by that morning (which he normally does), so I sent him a text about my panicking, and he sent a really supportive reply (I did say I knew I was breaking the rules).

So we talked about the text part Monday, and he said that he's being much more lenient with clients due to Covid, that he's not charging for any emails (he usually does over a certain length--taking more than 15 minutes to reply, though those are fairly unusual), he's more OK with texts, etc. And of course my brain jumped to, the increased empathy and support could go away, too. and I'd also thought that maybe the increased empathy had come about from us working together 3 years, but then I started to have more doubts.

But another thing with the text was, he questioned why I reached out to him vs. someone else. I'd said I thought it was the child part of me looking for comfort and support, but he was rather dismissive of the "child" idea, saying he thought was more the insecure attachment. And saying how my friends seem nurturing, so why not reach out to them? (I'd already said my H was swamped with work calls, plus our daughter being at home).

So I felt sort of shamed for reaching out to him, like he felt I was picking the wrong person to reach out to. And also felt dismissed about the "child" part thing.

So, a couple hours after that, I asked if I could move up my next session and he scheduled me (via Zoom) him for Tuesday (yesterday).

More in a bit--feel free to reply now or wait.

[Salmon77]

But another thing with the text was, he questioned why I reached out to him vs. someone else. I'd said I thought it was the child part of me looking for comfort and support, but he was rather dismissive of the "child" idea, saying he thought was more the insecure attachment.

It strikes me that your answer wasn't really relevant to the question he asked so maybe there was some sort of misunderstanding here.

Glad he was able to get you in sooner.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

It strikes me that your answer wasn't really relevant to the question he asked so maybe there was some sort of misunderstanding here.

Glad he was able to get you in sooner.

Thanks, Salmon. I suppose I explained the timeline poorly. I initially wanted to talk about the fact that I'd realized it was my child part seeking support/comfort. Like I'd had this revelation about it and wanted to discuss it. And then Dr. T said he thought it wasn't so much child but insecure attachment. And then questioned about my reaching out to him. But it still seemed like we were missing each other. Like I wanted to discuss the child part thing, what that was all about, he wanted to go in another direction.

[unaluna]

I guess i wouldnt really make a distinction between child part and insecure attachment. I would say, yeah, the child part is reaching out, because it grew up with insecure attachment. Whatever, it is still the false self trying to get satisfaction, which is why it will never be satisfied. I am beginning to think we have to get back to our true self to find out what we really really want.

We can QUIET the child part and HEAL the insecure attachment - not to get political, but when Don Jr wanted to have an intervention this weekend, thats kind of what he was saying. T in general being that intervention.

[atisketatasket]

I don’t myself believe in actual child parts outside of a diagnosed dissociative disorder. (Unless they are on actual children, of course.) I think it’s almost always shorthand for something else (like insecure attachment, or the id, or in my case abandonment feelings).

I wouldn’t consider it a big deal or invalidating. I think una’s right and they’re not that different. I think thinking of it as insecure attachment might be more productive, too, so I think it was good he offered that.

It also explains better his question: why did the child part reach out to *him*? The child part could theoretically have been satisfied by the people he pointed to. After your parents he seems to be the major figure in your life that you have insecure attachment with. And he’d just failed to be in touch, so the insecure attachment with him kicked in.

[unaluna]

What im thinking is, the false self will be healed in metaphor, like thru therapy or the arts, which will then allow the true self to banish the false self, and live happily ever after as the true self. Thats my plan.

[LonesomeTonight]

See, this is what I need, a reality check. I will actually post more later, like some stuff from yesterday.

[snowangel17]

Glad to s your Dr. T thread back LT. I was actually thinking about it the other day and wondeing where it had gone and why you stopped posting (mayb you shared why and I missed it?)...

Did the question seem leading at all? Was he trying to lead you into talking more about your feelings towards him at all? I mean I have friends who I can reach out to but when things come up it's always my T who I WANT to reach out to. She knows me better than most people in my life.

[ScarletPimpernel]

L gave me a quote from a poem. The main part she wanted me to focus on is "I am large. And I contain multitudes". L and I have just started talking about my "child parts". She doesn't diagnose it or label it an attachment style. She does agree it's partially maternal transference. The quote was to help comfort me: that we are all human and we are complex. That even my relationship with her is complex. We relate to each other as therapist to client, peer to peer, teacher to student, adult to adult, mother-figure to abandoned-child, etc. We are all multitudes.

I too would be upset if L labeled me an attachment style. Her and I agree: label jars not people. I would feel brushed off and misunderstood. Yes, there's a reason you feel like a child. You can explore that. Or explore why you're having particular transference with him. But to simply re-label it is not helpful imho.

[stopdog]

KING. Why do you put labels onto everything to justify your feelings?

BECKET. Because, without labels, the world would have no shape, my prince.

KING. Is it so important for the world to have a shape?

BECKET. It's essential, my prince, otherwise we can't know what we're doing.

Becket by Jean Anouih

[comrademoomoo]

I'd said I thought it was the child part of me looking for comfort and support, but he was rather dismissive of the "child" idea, saying he thought was more the insecure attachment. And saying how my friends seem nurturing, so why not reach out to them?

Does he understand the function of therapy? This is a really naïve thing for him to ask. Friendship isn't therapy. And how can he know your internal world better than you know it yourself? He seems very confident about dismissing your experience, where is his curiosity?

For me, my young aspect is far more than a manifestation of my attachment wound. She is also playful, brave, creative. She can be hurt, wrongfooted, ignored. She is alone but she will seek out love, sometimes.

He is missing large parts of your character by not taking the time to look at your child and what you are bringing to the relationship with him.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Does he understand the function of therapy? This is a really naïve thing for him to ask. Friendship isn't therapy. And how can he know your internal world better than you know it yourself? He seems very confident about dismissing your experience, where is his curiosity?

For me, my young aspect is far more than a manifestation of my attachment wound. She is also playful, brave, creative. She can be hurt, wrongfooted, ignored. She is alone but she will seek out love, sometimes.

He is missing large parts of your character by not taking the time to look at your child and what you are bringing to the relationship with him.

Thanks for the comments. Part of what was so difficult about his reaction is that I felt it was this "aha!" moment for me, this great insight. Like why I was reaching out to *him* in that moment and what role he was playing for me at the time.

He may not like to use the term "child part," but I sort of feel like if I want to refer to it that way, if it's easier for me to understand/talk about, then he should follow the client's lead. I think part of it is he tends to seem uncomfortable anytime I talk about anything sort of paternal toward him--not sure if it's partly that he's only 7 years older than me.

He did say he thinks it's more "insecure attachment" than "child part." But then a minute later, he was talking about developmental stages in a child, how one is determining whether the world is a safe vs. scary place. And he thinks, because of what I missed in childhood, that I'm still working through some of those developmental stages. So...wouldn't that mean the "child part" makes total sense??? (Wish I'd called him on it in that moment...)

Actually, I think that second part may have been Tuesday (moved up session by a day).

[LonesomeTonight]

So one of the things that came up Tuesday continues to bother me (and I'm going to address it with him today). In talking about my difficulty with secure attachment, Dr. T made the comment that with ex-MC, I had secure attachment. But that I just held on tighter and tighter until it became too much for him.


I said actually, I don't think I was securely attached to him at all. That I'd have moments where I felt really attached, then have these doubts. Which would lead to me pushing and testing him. That I'd get intermittent reinforcement. Trigger warning for animal lovers

Possible trigger:

Me: It's not like he was a cat that I hugged to death.

Dr. T was like, "Oh, OK." First, shouldn't it have been obvious that I wasn't securely attached to ex-MC? Second, that also makes it sound like all my fault that things got messed up with ex-MC. When Dr. T has certainly acknowledged in the past that much of it was due to his inconsistent boundaries (after initially acting like, how would I expect ex-MC to react to "I love you so much"?).

Finally, it makes me feel like Dr. T thinks that if I become securely attached to someone, then I'll mess it up by holding on too tightly. Like, I can't manage a secure relationship (I'm not sure that I've ever had a truly secure relationship, so I suppose I can't say. But I think insecurity is much more likely to make me mess one up). And of course it makes me wonder if Dr. T thinks I'm holding *him* too tightly. Is it becoming too much for him? Some of the stuff he said earlier that session about what it seems I expect from a T make me wonder about that. Saving that for separate post, because I thin they're separate ideas.

[LonesomeTonight]

So the other thing from Tuesday. He was talking about my insecure attachment, how with relationships in my life, I feel like I could "fall into the shark tank" at any moment, how that's the underlying energy there. And then he talked about how I seem to view the therapeutic relationship, how it's a sort of tug-of war for me. That with a friend, they're (presumably) hanging out with/talking to me because they like me. But with therapy, I can wonder if it's about the money. That I wonder if therapist would want to hang out with me and care about me if the situation were different. Me: "Like if we'd met under other circumstances, if I were a friend or colleague?" He said yes. I said I did sort of wonder that.

Then he said (I took notes this time) how, from a therapist, I look for signs of "nurturance, commitment, loyalty, and devotion." How I want to see that they want to be there for me, to take care of me. He said at another point, that I want to feel "relevant, important, lovable, and cared for." He said he works hard at the relationship with me. It all made me feel like I'm a lot of work as a client...like, I expect more from a therapist than I should?

He also said that I find boundaries in therapy to be "extremely hurtful." That I try to be the "good girl, the good client." Like following the rules of therapy (true). He said I "can't tolerate being chastised" (like if I do break one of the "rules" or he said something I did annoyed him). That it makes me feel hurt, punished, and dismissed.

Back to the therapeutic relationship, he said I don't want it to feel like a transaction of services, like buying shoes in a store (duh, obviously). How I don't just want to go to a restaurant and be served my meal, that I want it to be like "that show with the bar...with Norm?" Me: "Cheers?" Dr. T: "Yes." Me: "Like I want to come into session and have you go, 'LT!!!'" (trying to emulate the "Norm!!!!" thing from Cheers.) He said it's not like I just want that from therapy, but from other experiences, too, like, well, eating in a restaurant or having a beer in a taproom (well, outside now). The thing is, I don't see why this is such a weird thing? Isn't that why people become regulars at places?

I don't know, I guess I just feel kind of judged by him. I'm not saying that what he said is inaccurate, just something about him laying it all out there makes me feel like a difficult, needy client. Which, ok, yeah, I'm needy, but...

[atisketatasket]

No way were you securely attached to MC.

But the other stuff you mention, mostly his words making you feel judged or needy—I doubt that was his intent. I think that’s your stuff, and that there needs to be a distinction between what you feel (legitimate) and what he said and meant (also legitimate). It’s not that you don’t have a right to the feelings, it’s that they’re being used to criticize yourself and drive a wedge between yourself and this therapist you value. Maybe the same thing happens elsewhere in your life, I don’t know.

But I would focus less on feeling judged and just as much on “what can I do with these observations to improve my life and mental health if the observations seem right to me?” (Discounting the MC observation, obviously.)

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

No way were you securely attached to MC.

But the other stuff you mention, mostly his words making you feel judged or needy—I doubt that was his intent. I think that’s your stuff, and that there needs to be a distinction between what you feel (legitimate) and what he said and meant (also legitimate). It’s not that you don’t have a right to the feelings, it’s that they’re being used to criticize yourself and drive a wedge between yourself and this therapist you value. Maybe the same thing happens elsewhere in your life, I don’t know.

But I would focus less on feeling judged and just as much on “what can I do with these observations to improve my life and mental health if the observations seem right to me?” (Discounting the MC observation, obviously.)

Thanks, some good points here. And glad you also found it obvious that I wasn't securely attached to ex-MC.

I really wonder if some of what I'm dealing with lately is that my relationship with Dr. T has mostly been drama/conflict-free since I returned over a year ago. And I'm having trouble dealing with that. Because it's something resembling a secure relationship. And I'm also not used to his being so accepting and empathetic.

So I think lately I've been doing things to sort of push that. Forget if I mentioned this anywhere in the forums, but about a month ago, I told him I'd been having more frequent sexual thoughts about him. I was afraid it would weird him out. But he seemed...totally fine with it? Saying things like, besides my H, he's the male I have the most contact with. And that I'm not out much anymore due to pandemic, so not like I'm seeing, say, random guys in restaurants or coffee shops. I said how maybe it was also partly about missing the connection of not seeing him in person, and he agreed. At the end of session, he reiterated (without my asking) that it didn't bother him at all.

He later (next session?) said I'd taken a big risk in sharing that, which concerned me a bit, that it did actually negatively affect him. But I was talking with a friend, who agreed on it being a risk, and she wondered if maybe I was struggling with having the relationship go so well, so I was doing something to sort of blow it up? (er, no pun intended) So that made me wonder about that.

I recently alluded to that topic in session, and Dr. T said he hadn't thought about it at all since I'd mentioned it.

And in terms of other boundary pushing, I think texting him last week about the doctor's appointment was also doing that. He was fine with that, too.

So I think I need to address that more, how for a while I was feeling good about the relationship and relatively secure, but that's also difficult for me to handle and accept. Because I don't want to keep pushing and ruin the relationship. And I need to stop those patterns in general in my life (though I've gotten much better with it).

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for the comments. Part of what was so difficult about his reaction is that I felt it was this "aha!" moment for me, this great insight. Like why I was reaching out to *him* in that moment and what role he was playing for me at the time.

He may not like to use the term "child part," but I sort of feel like if I want to refer to it that way, if it's easier for me to understand/talk about, then he should follow the client's lead. I think part of it is he tends to seem uncomfortable anytime I talk about anything sort of paternal toward him--not sure if it's partly that he's only 7 years older than me.

Re: the child part, I think you are bumping up against the fact that he doesn't work this way and probably doesn't think this way either. My wife doesn't have any major attachment wounds and tends to form secure relationships, and I don't think she quite understands the concept of a child part or an inner child or whatever because her child part is so well integrated into her core self that she doesn't see or experience it as separate. It is just part of her, so it's invisible in a way. When she is upset or hurt, she knows that I (or one of her other close people) will be there for her. She feels like she deserves to be heard. She embraces her playful side or her childlike wonder or her neediness. She doesn't feel self-conscious or ambivalent about the childlike things in the way that somebody might if they had been criticized or punished for such things as an actual child. Maybe Dr. T is in a similar boat?

I remember first discovering aspects of my child part and realizing how complicated that was for me. There were so many emotions around that initial recognition. For me, it is clear that certain aspects of my development caused me to disavow the child part's neediness and emotional intensity. I wasn't able to experience asking for support and getting it consistently enough, so I had to shut it down. This is why I feel fractured now, and why I see the child part as separate. I'm basically developmentally stunted in that way.

The child part concept has utility for me (especially as a parent) because it provides hints about how to deal with what's going on. What do you do with a child and all their difficult emotions? Listen, validate, provide comfort, reassure, etc. I think that's the key to emotion regulation and feeling more whole. That's how you integrate the child-like feelings and calm the anxiety.

I do think some of Dr. T's interactions with you could make it difficult or impossible to explore this concept. Instead of validating your impulse to contact him (vs. a friend), he seemed a bit judgmental. My DBT T and I have talked about why getting support from somebody else feels better (because of course it does!) and why learning to self-soothe is useful too (you don't have to wait, for one thing, and it's harder to disappoint yourself since you know what you need based on the feelings you're having).

I also think his implication that you are "too much" is pretty dangerous territory. You can't really control how "much" you are, though of course you can control what you do with your feelings. I think therapy is the best place to let out all the stuff that is huge and scary and uncontrollable. I bring some of my attachment insecurity into my other relationships (both consciously and unconsciously!), but they are often not places to deal with the feelings sufficiently and still maintain a healthy adult relationship. If your T (Dr. T or ex-MC or whoever) doesn't have the skills or tools to help you figure out how to tame those feelings, that's on them, not you. I'm impressed that you are able to push back against some of what he is saying without absorbing it too much, but I am not sure how helpful I would find his comments in your situation. He is basically saying that it isn't safe to really explore all those huge, messy child-like feelings because he doesn't know what to do with them either.

[LonesomeTonight]

Copying/pasting from the Couch:
Today's session was really rough, like rupture territory. I don't know if it's fixable or not. He said that he doesn't like having to respond to client emails, that he'd rather not do it. When he's been doing that for me for 3 years. And I said how before he'd said he considered it a part of his job. And he said (today), "We all have parts of our job that we'd rather not have to do." He said he's willing to do it for me. But would prefer not to have to in general.

Note that I'm fully aware that many T's don't do email. But this has been an agreement since the beginning that we've discussed multiple times. He never said he wished he didn't have to do it. Just that he charges for longer ones (or if I sent a whole bunch of short ones), which I accepted. The vast majority of time, he didn't charge me (even when he said it took him >15 minutes). So feel sort of deceived. And it's also very reminiscent of stuff that happened with ex-T and ex-MC regarding email, so it's particularly triggering.

And he said this is why I need to be relying on other people in my life. Because I'm never going to be satisfied with the boundaries in the therapeutic relationship.

And he also confirmed that he'd be less supportive and accepting once Covid starts going away. And would push me more. And that he knows it will be hard for me.

Plus some other stuff. Like my bringing up how he seems to get uncomfortable any time I bring up the inner child stuff, and he questioned what I meant. And I said he seemed visibly uncomfortable, always tried to use other language for it, shift the topic to something else, etc. That there's a lot I want to explore with that, but I feel I can't because of his reactions.

So...I don't know if it's fixable or not. I really appreciate all the support he's giving me during Covid. I seriously doubt many therapists would allow sessions this frequent or...well, I was going to say allow outside contact. Which I guess he does, but he just doesn't like it.

And now it also sort of feels like his greater compassion and support during Covid is just an act.

So...I think I'm at least going to look at some other T's, maybe contact a couple, have free 15-minute consults for ones that allow that. I think I need a T with a different method of working. And probably a female.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

And he said this is why I need to be relying on other people in my life. Because I'm never going to be satisfied with the boundaries in the therapeutic relationship.

After watching you go through the pain of three separate therapists and their boundaries, I agree with him. I don’t say this blamingly, I think you’re just wired in such a way that you really need to know where you stand with someone. Given that, I can think of few relationships more likely to trigger that lack of satisfaction than a therapeutic relationship.

(One reason I stay with Info, to the mystification of many here, is I don’t want anything more from her than being a therapist I see occasionally. Not friendship, not love, not mothering. Nice change from therapists like No. 3.)

If you look for another therapist, I agree with trying a woman. I know you think the transference is mainly paternal/male authority figure, but in a number of your posts here (not just the ones about sex dreams) it comes across as strongly erotic. So I wonder if that doesn’t also play a role in the lack of satisfaction with boundaries. Maybe a woman closer to your age to help avoid maternal transference, with whom you don’t have much in common or whom you wouldn’t want to be friendly with irl. Not that that might not happen anyway, but it might be a better place to start.

[comrademoomoo]

Isn't a therapy relationship one of the few relationships where you have the chance to explore exactly where you stand?