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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 03:16 PM
  #1
Today I found out my counselor has a hunter's license, that is she hunts and shoots wild animals like raindeer and perhaps other animals too.

It's legal but I could never shoot an animal unless I was really threatened or if an animal, like a wolf for example, came too close and killed cattle.

A hunter's license says something about a person and a person who kills animals is to me someone who lacks empathy and who's a rather cold person.

A lot of people don't like hunting and I don't think you can defend it as being just a hobby like painting or football.

If you don't care about animals, you don't care that much about people either and it really isn't suitable for a person working as a therapist or counselor.

I guess to me working with people also comes with a certain personality that I don't see fit into being a hunter.

How do you look upon this?
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 03:29 PM
  #2
I think that people are complex and that it's definitely possible to have views that may seem contradictory to another person. I think we get into dangerous territory when we suppose our viewpoints about things onto other people, or assert that just because A is true, so must B be. I am currently in school to become a therapist and I have gone hunting before. I didn't care for it, but I am not really an outdoorsy kind of person. When I was a kid I would gladly eat the meat that my dad acquired hunting, and when I was teaching in a rural area, welcomed kids bringing in their deer jerky to me. I don't think that this says anything about my ability to be an effective therapist.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 03:33 PM
  #3
This is a tricky one. I don't want to get into whether hunting has merits or not as I think that could easily become quite an inflamed conversation. I think the issue is that this conflicts with your values and what you think the role of a counselor is. This value conflict is going to have to be one you can decide whether to live with or not. If you choose not to and give up your counselor you will lose support, such as it is, and if you choose to stay you have to live with the inconsistency in your mind of what a counselor is. It seems to me that you have trouble relating to your counselor and this is one more thing that makes it difficult to relate to her for you. But IIRC you need to see a counselor for your benefits or something like that. It's definitely something you can talk to her about and see if talking about it does anything to change your perspective about how a counselor should behave on their own time. But also ask yourself if this so fundamentally changes how you see her as a counselor that you can no longer see her or is it something you can overlook? I think that is the question. To me what she is able to do when she is with you in terms of helping you is more important than what she does in her own time. But that is just me. HUGS Kit

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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 03:37 PM
  #4
I don't agree with hunting just for fun, or the killing of endangered animals...but lots of hunting has to do with keeping populations of deer/rabbits/foxes down for farmers etc.

Unless you are a vegetarian/vegan, I think it's hypocritical of someone to be against hunting in this way. Someone raises and kills the animals we eat and use every day.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 03:51 PM
  #5
Thanks for the perspective. I agree having a hunter´s license of course doesn´t affect the ability to study to become a therapist or knowing how to use certain techniques. But for me a counselor or a therapist is caring against "all living" and that includes animals. To me a counselor or therapist should have a very humble way of looking upon life and take life seriously. If a person regularly hunt for his/her own pleasure that shows too little concern for others.

I don´t mean you should take this personally, I don´t know you and you say you did hunting before, but I talk about how I see this hunter role versus the role as a counselor (my counselor).

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I think that people are complex and that it's definitely possible to have views that may seem contradictory to another person. I think we get into dangerous territory when we suppose our viewpoints about things onto other people, or assert that just because A is true, so must B be. I am currently in school to become a therapist and I have gone hunting before. I didn't care for it, but I am not really an outdoorsy kind of person. When I was a kid I would gladly eat the meat that my dad acquired hunting, and when I was teaching in a rural area, welcomed kids bringing in their deer jerky to me. I don't think that this says anything about my ability to be an effective therapist.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 04:01 PM
  #6
Thanks. Yes, as you say this isn´t a debate about hunting per se but in relations to being a counselor or a therapist.

As my counselor isn´t a therapist and we don´t do therapy I wouldn´t quit seeing her for this but it will affect me, at least for some time.

In some ways I can relate to her and we have many similar opinions about health care, about politics and so on. Also, it's because she shares too much that this happens. On the other hand, I wouldn´t like having a counselor or therapist I know very little about either especially as I could never know if she stands behind things that is totally unexeptable to me.

I would end up without support if I quit so this isn´t really an option. But it´s still a bit hard to process and to reconsile with. To me her way of being got some kind of explanation, that she isn´t really a soft or caring person but perhaps more of a pragmatic. To me that doesn´t rhyme with being a counselor.

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This is a tricky one. I don't want to get into whether hunting has merits or not as I think that could easily become quite an inflamed conversation. I think the issue is that this conflicts with your values and what you think the role of a counselor is. This value conflict is going to have to be one you can decide whether to live with or not. If you choose not to and give up your counselor you will lose support, such as it is, and if you choose to stay you have to live with the inconsistency in your mind of what a counselor is. It seems to me that you have trouble relating to your counselor and this is one more thing that makes it difficult to relate to her for you. But IIRC you need to see a counselor for your benefits or something like that. It's definitely something you can talk to her about and see if talking about it does anything to change your perspective about how a counselor should behave on their own time. But also ask yourself if this so fundamentally changes how you see her as a counselor that you can no longer see her or is it something you can overlook? I think that is the question. To me what she is able to do when she is with you in terms of helping you is more important than what she does in her own time. But that is just me. HUGS Kit
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 04:08 PM
  #7
Thanks for your perspective. Yes, I think part of why my counselor is hunting is for that very reason you mention, to keep deer populations down.

But it´s still her making that decision to shoot. Even if some authority has decided you need to shoot a certain amount of deer for example, every person has the decision to say "no, I won´t participate in that".

I think it shows your whole approach to life and how you treat other living creatures. It also says something about your personality as many people say no to hunting and they couldn´t kill someone just for the sake of it.

I agree there´s a conflict with eating meet and the meet industry but hunting as a hobby or to get food is never neccessary, at least not in developed countries. That is, every person has an easy choice to just avoid it as there are many other hobbies and you don´t need the meat for food.

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I don't agree with hunting just for fun, or the killing of endangered animals...but lots of hunting has to do with keeping populations of deer/rabbits/foxes down for farmers etc.

Unless you are a vegetarian/vegan, I think it's hypocritical of someone to be against hunting in this way. Someone raises and kills the animals we eat and use every day.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 05:13 PM
  #8
She may have grown up in a more country environment where such things were common and encouraged from a young age.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 05:23 PM
  #9
Why can't a therapist engage in hunting? Do you realize how humane most game hunting is by comparison to industrial food processing?

My last therapist has a white belt in judo, so theoretically he can beat the crap out of people if he needs to. LOL. He is an outdoorsman - hikes; camps; fishes; hunts. He is rather attuned to nature - very much so in a way probably much beyond what I am. I find that to be true of my family that are ranchers, farmers, and hunters. He is an avid and marvelous dog owner who rescues dogs and is really very skilled in training them. He's a family man with a whole mob of kids and grandkids who think he rocks.

While I am not a hunter, I wouldn't begin to think those that do hunt legally and use that meat to feed their families, etc. are somehow less moral than other people. It isn't my world, but people are a conglomeration of their interests and histories and hobbies - and with any luck they have multiple interests that make up who they are - therapists included.

My therapist and I, interest-wise, are about as opposite as two people can be. I'm a classical musician and a literature teacher (okay, he is actually rather well read); I am NOT a physical being in the least. However, as outdoorsy and physical as my therapist is, despite how different his interests are from mine, he had no difficulty being a highly effective therapist for me. because bottom line, he understood emotion and thought process and history and interpersonal relations - which is what I hired him for.

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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 06:44 PM
  #10
I don’t hunt and didn’t grow up around hunters but I live in a state with many hunters and fishermen. Many are wonderful people. Not cold or mean.

Are you a vegan? As not consuming any animal products?

If you aren’t and you eat meat and dairy and wear leather shoes, then I don’t understand how are you that different than hunters?

You simply pay other people to kill animals for you. If you are strict vegan, then perhaps you could look for a vegan therapist.

Otherwise you have to accept that they don’t kill animals any more than you do by buying it in a store and they aren’t more cold or more mean than the rest of meat eating and leather shoes wearing crowd.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 06:54 PM
  #11
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Thanks for your perspective. Yes, I think part of why my counselor is hunting is for that very reason you mention, to keep deer populations down.

But it´s still her making that decision to shoot. Even if some authority has decided you need to shoot a certain amount of deer for example, every person has the decision to say "no, I won´t participate in that".

I think it shows your whole approach to life and how you treat other living creatures. It also says something about your personality as many people say no to hunting and they couldn´t kill someone just for the sake of it.

I agree there´s a conflict with eating meet and the meet industry but hunting as a hobby or to get food is never neccessary, at least not in developed countries. That is, every person has an easy choice to just avoid it as there are many other hobbies and you don´t need the meat for food.
But you don’t know if she hunts for hobby or she hunts to get meat supply. She might find her way of killing a deer is more compassionate than the way meat industry kills a cow. To hunt for food might not be necessary but neither is shopping for meat in a supermarket.

Do you not eat meat? Wear leather? Would you be ok with meat eating therapist? If you don’t eat animal products then it’s understandable if meat eating therapist isn’t acceptable for you either as it’s no different than a hunter
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 07:03 PM
  #12
Putting aside whether it is right or wrong to hunt—

Clearly this is a situation where your beliefs and values are very different from your counselor's. That's something that will come up in all kinds of relationships throughout your life, and it's good that people have different opinions and we can learn from each other. So I think it's worth talking it out with her, trying to understand where she's coming from and her perspective, even if you don't agree. And then see what kind of value you can get from a relationship with someone who disagrees with you.
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Default Jan 18, 2021 at 07:31 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by SarahSweden View Post
A hunter's license says something about a person and a person who kills animals is to me someone who lacks empathy and who's a rather cold person......
Quote:
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If you don't care about animals, you don't care that much about people either and it really isn't suitable for a person working as a therapist or counselor.



When I first read this I was offended. Then I thought about it a bit and realized this was written by someone who has lived their entire life in a city somewhere in the western world (most likely). If you have ever lived on a farm or in a rural area your view would probably be different.

This assumption is far from accurate. All the hunters I know have profound respect for life. In some cultures hunters are revered. E.g., the Cree people of Canada

You mentioned in some of your previous threads that your therapist was distant. Are you trying to determine why?









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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 03:30 PM
  #14
I think this is an interesting issue. Are there some interests or dedications which undermine the fundamental values which we assume underpin therapy - and by extension, therapists' outlook? Interests which we might describe as cruel (compared to compassionate); manipulative (compared to honest); or illegal (compared to professional). We might argue about the ethics of hunting, but the question might also be about dog fighting; or catfishing; or shoplifting. Hunting might be permissible or celebrated by some, but what if the therapist is hunting endangered species? The activity itself is largely irrelevant, it is the indication of their values which matters.
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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 03:59 PM
  #15
I don't think anyone would be defending a therapist who was engaging in illegal activities. The OP, however, is putting moral judgment on a completely legal activity without really understanding the activity itself very well, probably because she wasn't brought up around folk who regularly hunted I'm guessing, so she is putting value judgment on her therapist that is probably a bit misguided. I get that. I have a whole side of my family that is full of huge hunters; the other side of my family is not - never the twain shall meet. LOL. I grew up sort of in the middle, so I see both perspectives and am generally amused at both sides' inability to understand the other's way of life.

I can completely understand not wanting to hunt; it definitely isn't everyone's cup of tea. But to go as far as to say a therapist cannot be a good therapist if they are also a hunter is creating a judgment that is probably quite off-base. Like was said, it probably isn't as much about the hunting as it is about placing a moral judgment on something someone does that we don't really understand. The OP has a tendency to create these judgments - the therapist is too rich to understand me; the therapist is too educated to understand my life; the therapist doesn't say hello the right way or goodbye the right way, etc. and therefore that means he/she is a bad person, and then she can't work with them, etc.

It seems to be more about finding ways (as a previous poster mentioned) to justify keeping the therapist at a distance, to justify not working with the therapist because of some reason.

OP, I hope you can find a place where you can focus more on you and your goals for yourself and maybe a bit less on why your therapist is insufficient for you. You apparently have no options for therapy and are unfortunately stuck with an unskilled counselor who really doesn't meet the requirements for your therapy. That's a hard place to be. At one point you were offered the services of actual therapists but for some reason you turned those down. Is there a way to perhaps get back with a trained therapist and give them a working chance? This just doesn't seem to be working for you.
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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 04:08 PM
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I think this is an interesting issue. Are there some interests or dedications which undermine the fundamental values which we assume underpin therapy - and by extension, therapists' outlook? Interests which we might describe as cruel (compared to compassionate); manipulative (compared to honest); or illegal (compared to professional). We might argue about the ethics of hunting, but the question might also be about dog fighting; or catfishing; or shoplifting. Hunting might be permissible or celebrated by some, but what if the therapist is hunting endangered species? The activity itself is largely irrelevant, it is the indication of their values which matters.
Sure maybe she hunts elephants for ivory and sells it on a black market. Could be. But why assuming? That’s why it’s wise not to assume, but ask for specifics if that’s fundamentally important. By this logic we shouldn’t see any therapists because they all might have something bad about them that we might erroneously assume.
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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 04:14 PM
  #17
So what if SarahSweden is questioning whether she can work with her counsellor? That doesn't invalidate her query. I routinely look for reasons to not trust my therapist and to be suspicious of her intentions, does this mean I don't have valid questions about the nature of trust in therapy? I would hope that we can explore these kind of ethical questions here, I am not sure why some posters are looking to shut down the discussion on the basis of Sarah's personal and individual circumstances. Indeed, if Sarah is "too good" for therapists - well, firstly, all power to her, maybe she is - then it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of ethical issue she might want to explore. Sorry to speak about you in the third person, Sarah!

Quote:
I don't think anyone would be defending a therapist who was engaging in illegal activities.
Oh hi, I would! For example, I would not be bothered by my therapist shoplifting. If she took part in certain acts of civil disobedience or illegal protest, I would not question her ethical stance as a therapist. There are many illegal direct actions she might undertake as part of feminist protest which I would support.

However, the interesting point for me is not about individual actions and specific activities, it is about the theoretical idea that ideological conflict might exist between personal sphere and professional/public role.
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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 04:20 PM
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Sure maybe she hunts elephants for ivory and sells it on a black market. Could be. But why assuming? That’s why it’s wise not to assume, but ask for specifics if that’s fundamentally important. By this logic we shouldn’t see any therapists because they all might have something bad about them that we might erroneously assume.
My point is that I am not assuming anything about the actual or potential activity, indeed I think the activity is irrelevant. I am interested in whether some personal aspects are incompatible with a professional (in this instance, therapeutic) stance. A bit like a sober landlord, thin baker, godless vicar.
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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 04:35 PM
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My point is that I am not assuming anything about the actual or potential activity, indeed I think the activity is irrelevant. I am interested in whether some personal aspects are incompatible with a professional (in this instance, therapeutic) stance. A bit like a sober landlord, thin baker, godless vicar.
Good examples comrademoomoo! While personally it wouldn't bother me to see a therapist who hunts (though I could see how it would bother some), it WOULD bother me to see a vicar who was godless. And a thin baker for that matter! I want my bakers plump gosh darn it! Just like it wouldn't bother me if my therapist had been in prison for civil disobedience it would bother me if she had been in prison for say child abuse or spousal abuse. Sometimes nuances of things matters too. I guess the issue is whether the OP can look past it and not let it impede on the work. Or talk to the counselor and gain a different perspective about it.

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Default Jan 19, 2021 at 05:20 PM
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My point is that I am not assuming anything about the actual or potential activity, indeed I think the activity is irrelevant. I am interested in whether some personal aspects are incompatible with a professional (in this instance, therapeutic) stance. A bit like a sober landlord, thin baker, godless vicar.
I agree that some aspects are incompatible IF we really know all ins and outs. If we don’t know, then assuming will take us no where.

Is the baker thin because his pastry is nasty or because he is ill or works out to burn calories? Was a landlord seen in a liquor store because he is a hopeless drunk or was he shopping for a gift or visited a friend who owns liquor store? Is a vicar godless or he raises interesting questions about G-d as is encouraged in many religions?

Sure everyone can question everything but what’s the point of assuming if we don’t know enough. It sure prevents people from showing any growth. It will be more productive to actually ask a person rather than assuming that’s what they do in their spare is incompatible
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