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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 07:41 AM
  #1
In my last session before the break we are currently on, my very angry little child came hurtling out at full force for the very first time in front of my T. I believe there was some dissociation going on as I don’t fully recall exactly what was said, but the one thing I do remember was my response to his response. After the angry outburst he sat in his chair all calm, half smiling and told me he was ok with me being angry and he could take it and it wasn’t a problem. My reaction to this was that is made me even more angry. I didn’t want him to be fine with it, I didn’t want it to have no effect on him, I wanted him to feel something. Because if he was angry at me for being angry, or was annoyed or hurt, then at least that reaction would show that he cared. Sitting there, seemingly unfazed and relaxed felt like he doesn’t consider me important enough or care enough about me to react to me being angry at him. I didn’t tell him any of this as it felt extremely shameful that I clearly wanted to provoke a reaction out of him.
I’ve never really heard anyone say they have experienced this kind of thing so just wondering if anyone else felt anything similar or am I just weird?!
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 12:31 PM
  #2
I spoke angrily to my first T on just one occasion, and she replied to me in a slightly emotionally charged way, with some words that were a little bit holding. Sometime later one of my teenage children was speaking angrily to me, which was usual for her, and I stayed with her, in a different way than I ever had before, and replied to her, maybe in a similar way to my T, and I believe that moment changed my daughter. I think that maybe your instinct that his reaction wasn’t entirely helpful is true, we need our T’s to be in some way emotionally involved with us, to be moved by our sorrow, and our anger, and to be genuinely present with us.
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 12:54 PM
  #3
Accepting your anger without getting angry back, without "punishment," IS caring. That's what good parents do (or therapists in this case). Is it possible you expected what you "know" from childhood and this caring acceptance is foreign to you?

Kids act out to be heard when they are used to not being heard, and they don't always particularly care what the reaction is so long as they don't feel invisible. I see it in students on occasion who will get attention any way they can get it, even if it means negative attention. It's a learned behavior. Kids who are used to being heard by attentive adults tend to act out less often and with less vigor. They'll still do it, but when met with the same consistent acceptance and caring, with redirection rather than punishment, they will generally calm fairly quickly and be okay.

What your therapist is doing is modeling acceptance and caring of you, even at your "worst." But you may not recognize that's is what is going on.
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 01:03 PM
  #4
I find it infuriating when my therapist says that she welcomes my anger. It is as if I am rendered impotent. Don't welcome it, react to it! Fall into my old patterns and let us play out roles where we shout and hurt each other.

Engaging in conflict is a type of connection. It's hurtful and difficult and draining, but it is a kind of contact. Sometimes I like teasing my cat to make him angry so I can see him interact with me.

Is anger a familiar emotion for you? What were the dominant feelings in your childhood home and were you allowed to express them?
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 01:15 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
Accepting your anger without getting angry back, without "punishment," IS caring. That's what good parents do (or therapists in this case). Is it possible you expected what you "know" from childhood and this caring acceptance is foreign to you?

Kids act out to be heard when they are used to not being heard, and they don't always particularly care what the reaction is so long as they don't feel invisible. I see it in students on occasion who will get attention any way they can get it, even if it means negative attention. It's a learned behavior. Kids who are used to being heard by attentive adults tend to act out less often and with less vigor. They'll still do it, but when met with the same consistent acceptance and caring, with redirection rather than punishment, they will generally calm fairly quickly and be okay.

What your therapist is doing is modeling acceptance and caring of you, even at your "worst." But you may not recognize that's is what is going on.
No I definitely don’t recognise that is what may be happening at all! I definitely think childhood experiences are probably apart of it. If I was angry as a child, I was punished verbally and sometimes physically. My mother was emotionally neglectful and my dad pretty absent so I guess when there was any kind of attention paid to me even when that was negative, I could possibly have latched on to that as a display of ‘care.’
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 01:19 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
I find it infuriating when my therapist says that she welcomes my anger. It is as if I am rendered impotent. Don't welcome it, react to it! Fall into my old patterns and let us play out roles where we shout and hurt each other.

Engaging in conflict is a type of connection. It's hurtful and difficult and draining, but it is a kind of contact. Sometimes I like teasing my cat to make him angry so I can see him interact with me.

Is anger a familiar emotion for you? What were the dominant feelings in your childhood home and were you allowed to express them?
Yes this feels familiar. A reaction of anger towards my anger is what I know and feel safe with I guess and it connects me with a person. I was emotionally neglected by my mother as well as emotionally abused by both my mother and father and physically abused by my father. So I had a lot of anger, but was not really allowed to express any feelings or emotions. If I showed anger, I got anger right back at me to shut me down. My parents used to fight a lot as well so I witnessed a fair amount of domestic violence, maybe I’ve internalised that as a way of caring in some warped strange way.
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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 01:27 PM
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...

Sometimes I like teasing my cat to make him angry so I can see him interact with me.

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Default Apr 07, 2021 at 01:29 PM
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Default Apr 10, 2021 at 03:34 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by KLL85 View Post
In my last session before the break we are currently on, my very angry little child came hurtling out at full force for the very first time in front of my T. I believe there was some dissociation going on as I don’t fully recall exactly what was said, but the one thing I do remember was my response to his response. After the angry outburst he sat in his chair all calm, half smiling and told me he was ok with me being angry and he could take it and it wasn’t a problem. My reaction to this was that is made me even more angry. I didn’t want him to be fine with it, I didn’t want it to have no effect on him, I wanted him to feel something. Because if he was angry at me for being angry, or was annoyed or hurt, then at least that reaction would show that he cared. Sitting there, seemingly unfazed and relaxed felt like he doesn’t consider me important enough or care enough about me to react to me being angry at him. I didn’t tell him any of this as it felt extremely shameful that I clearly wanted to provoke a reaction out of him.
I’ve never really heard anyone say they have experienced this kind of thing so just wondering if anyone else felt anything similar or am I just weird?!
Absolutely, I had similar experience with my exT. I think sometimes Ts either go overboard with supposed validation to the point where it becomes invalidating, or else they can't in fact take it quite as well as they'd like and put up a front to mask that (exT did the latter, mostly).

I think there's a difference between feeling the weight of our anger and being able to take it on and pretending it has no weight ... or, worse, it really being nothing to them.

Might be a good idea to discuss this further with your T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
Accepting your anger without getting angry back, without "punishment," IS caring. That's what good parents do (or therapists in this case). Is it possible you expected what you "know" from childhood and this caring acceptance is foreign to you?

Kids act out to be heard when they are used to not being heard, and they don't always particularly care what the reaction is so long as they don't feel invisible. I see it in students on occasion who will get attention any way they can get it, even if it means negative attention. It's a learned behavior. Kids who are used to being heard by attentive adults tend to act out less often and with less vigor. They'll still do it, but when met with the same consistent acceptance and caring, with redirection rather than punishment, they will generally calm fairly quickly and be okay.

What your therapist is doing is modeling acceptance and caring of you, even at your "worst." But you may not recognize that's is what is going on.
Calm is good, and can mean acceptance or care (but then that needs to be expressed explicitly for those of us who it default to interpreting it as indifference or dismissal). Smiling, I really don't think is appropriate.

Whenever ex-T did that, it always just made me wipe the smile off her face. **** you, I'm angry because I'm hurt and/or scared, and that's because of what you did/said (or didn't), don't you dare smile! (and yes, transference and past traumas and blah-blah, but she was still the one triggering it in that moment)

The part of me that kind of wants to express itself but kind of doesn't and so it all comes out as anger, wanted to hear that it's existence and intent to communicte is dscovered and acknwedged. The part of me that knows it's not OK to express anger that way (or express anger at all when I really need to express something ele) wanted to hear that it's not OK, because anything else is lie, but also that it's acceptable in that context until I learn to express myself better, and this ties back to the previous point - understanding that something needs to b expressed but I need help to get to a point where I can.

The calm-welcoming supposedly oh-so-professional reaction I from exT, gave me none of this, I only felt (even more) invisible and impotent and even angrier. Of course, her apparent calm and welcoming attitude wasn't entirely honest in the first place, as I suspected and she later confirmed ("btw it's kind of scary when you get angry")
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Default Apr 13, 2021 at 03:36 PM
  #10
I would have felt the same way. I don't pay the therapist to not respond to what I bring to therapy. While I don't expect her to care deeply on a personal level that I am angry, she is providing a service and, unless she is ambivalent about retaining clients, should care about the discord on a professional level. My head would probably explode if I expressed anger at her and she just sat there smiling like an idiot. Sometimes she has said she doesn't know how to respond to something I am angry about, and I can work with that, but just saying it's ok wouldn't cut it. At all. And I would probably feel patronized that she felt she needed to tell me it was ok (although I know this could be helpful to people who have problems expressing anger).

Maybe the smiling and dismissing of your anger was a defense mechanism on the part of your therapist?

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Default Apr 13, 2021 at 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
What your therapist is doing is modeling acceptance and caring of you, even at your "worst." But you may not recognize that's is what is going on.
I don't disagree that might be their intention, but how very unnatural! People in real life do not respond this way unless they just don't care. Or, I suppose, if a parent is too tired to engage with a tantruming child. I'm left wondering what the point is of modeling such a bizarre response that will never be replicated in life. Maybe it's me... I've been equally baffled by other things therapists are said to model.

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Default Apr 13, 2021 at 05:16 PM
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I don't disagree that might be their intention, but how very unnatural! People in real life do not respond this way unless they just don't care. Or, I suppose, if a parent is too tired to engage with a tantruming child. I'm left wondering what the point is of modeling such a bizarre response that will never be replicated in life. Maybe it's me... I've been equally baffled by other things therapists are said to model.
I do this all the time with my toddler. She gets mad about things, and it would be counterproductive for me to get angry with her for not yet having the ability to regulate her own emotions. I don't stare at her smiling, but I do try to validate whatever she's angry about (even if I don't really get it or I know she's mostly angry because she's hunger or tired), give her a hug, sit with her, etc. I can relate to not really feeling comfortable unless things are at least slightly in conflict because of my own upbringing, but I don't think it necessarily has to be that way.
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Default Apr 14, 2021 at 05:28 AM
  #13
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I don't disagree that might be their intention, but how very unnatural! People in real life do not respond this way unless they just don't care. Or, I suppose, if a parent is too tired to engage with a tantruming child. I'm left wondering what the point is of modeling such a bizarre response that will never be replicated in life. Maybe it's me... I've been equally baffled by other things therapists are said to model.
Apparently, healthy people are able to regulate their emotions effectively so they rarely, if ever, even get to the point of 'exploding in anger'.
Who knew.

But i agree with the poster above.. .teaching toddlers to regulate their emotions is where it all begins. If adults were able to teach toddlers how to feel, deal and express emotions in healthy ways most people wouldn't be in such a mess.

But... we are in such a mess because the cycle just continues and people who can't express emotions and maintain healthy relationships (because they weren't taught how to do that by their own parents ) go on to emotionally harm their own children and pass own their own unhealthy relationship patterns.

So kudos to the above poster who is teaching her toddler to regulate their emotions. Your toddler is one of the lucky ones.
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Default Apr 14, 2021 at 08:17 AM
  #14
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I don't disagree that might be their intention, but how very unnatural! People in real life do not respond this way unless they just don't care. Or, I suppose, if a parent is too tired to engage with a tantruming child. I'm left wondering what the point is of modeling such a bizarre response that will never be replicated in life. Maybe it's me... I've been equally baffled by other things therapists are said to model.
But it isn't unnatural. I see people respond this way all the time in real life, particularly with children, probably because I am around a lot of pretty darn good parents with regularity, and teachers - it's just what we do . . .. if we know anything about child development, etc. . . . The shame is that it does seem so bizarre and unnatural to so many peoples' experience because they were raised in environments of punishment and judgment instead of logical consequences, patience, and acceptance.
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Default Apr 14, 2021 at 02:21 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by KLL85 View Post
In my last session before the break we are currently on, my very angry little child came hurtling out at full force for the very first time in front of my T. I believe there was some dissociation going on as I don’t fully recall exactly what was said, but the one thing I do remember was my response to his response. After the angry outburst he sat in his chair all calm, half smiling and told me he was ok with me being angry and he could take it and it wasn’t a problem. My reaction to this was that is made me even more angry. I didn’t want him to be fine with it, I didn’t want it to have no effect on him, I wanted him to feel something. Because if he was angry at me for being angry, or was annoyed or hurt, then at least that reaction would show that he cared. Sitting there, seemingly unfazed and relaxed felt like he doesn’t consider me important enough or care enough about me to react to me being angry at him. I didn’t tell him any of this as it felt extremely shameful that I clearly wanted to provoke a reaction out of him.
I’ve never really heard anyone say they have experienced this kind of thing so just wondering if anyone else felt anything similar or am I just weird?!
I would say that he does care for you. Part of a therapists job is to be able to control their emotions while holding yours, as you express them, at the same time. This is done to let clients know that the therapy space is a safe environment and that the focus is on only the clients needs.

So, in your situation, I believe he cares for you. And he is showing that by letting you express what you need to express without him reacting. He is creating a very safe place for you.
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Default Apr 14, 2021 at 03:54 PM
  #16
I think it's important to differentiate between a lack of angry response and acceptence. They are very far from being the same. Passive aggression is a thing. Masking fear (or displeasure) with apparent calm and a forced smile is a thing. I'm sure there are a lot of other possibilities where calm and controlled behaviour comes with a lack of acceptance. Conversely, someone's whose first reaction is to get angry back might actually be genuinely accepting after calming down (although that doesn't necessarily heal the damage done in anger).

I'm not saying the therapist in question is doing any of these. I suspect it was primarily a genuine attempt at reassurance, if not very attuned to th OP's need, but 1. the smiling and 2. the sole focus being on how it's ok and he can take it are red flags. Both can have perfectly sensible and harmless explanations, but still red flags.

I might just be extra sensitive about this because of xT stuff, and other instances of getting into trouble because I explained away red flags like this (because, "maybe it's perfectly normal for normal people to behave this way or that, surely I'm just being paranoid" ... well no, many times I wasn't.) So please KLL85 don't be like me and convince yourself that you're just being stupid and decide it's not even worth talking about ... if his reaction rubs you the wrong way for whatever reason, that certainly is worth talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricManatee View Post
I do this all the time with my toddler. She gets mad about things, and it would be counterproductive for me to get angry with her for not yet having the ability to regulate her own emotions. I don't stare at her smiling, but I do try to validate whatever she's angry about (even if I don't really get it or I know she's mostly angry because she's hunger or tired), give her a hug, sit with her, etc. I can relate to not really feeling comfortable unless things are at least slightly in conflict because of my own upbringing, but I don't think it necessarily has to be that way.
I think the bolded is the crucial part of signalling acceptnce and helping with emotion regulation that's missing from KLL85's description. If you just stared at her smiling, she probably wouldn't know what to make of it and get even angrier. You wordlessly demonstrate that you 'can take it' by engaging with her in a supportive manner as opposed to either getting aggressive or withdrawing. And then the focus is on her.

Of course, the therapist in question is not interacting with an actual toddler, so it kind of makes sense that he'd try to verbally reassure the adult that it's ok, but I think the validation part would be necessary for me to parse it as acceptance, and, if being on the receiving end of a similar reaction, to actually help me regulate calm down and start trusting the person.
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Default Apr 15, 2021 at 11:21 AM
  #17
something my own therapists taught me... sometimes the best reaction is no reaction. I have a special needs child who sometimes cant regulate their own emotions and does have explosive anger. in therapy we were talking about my child and my own childhood. she noticed that when I talked about times I have gotten angry as an adult and child it wasnt the in kind reactions of others that made an impression on me. it was those few who did not react with anger that made the impressions on me that made me rethink how I was reacting and behaving and its what my child is doing. when you react to an angry situation you arte giving the child what they expect and want. you to be so angry at their explosion that you give in to what they want.

works the same way in therapy. if a therapist reacts to a clients anger with anger the thought is aha got her made her angry shes going to pay for what she said to me.

but when the therapist sits calmly, rationally, logically 1 the situation cant continue spiralling out of control and 2 this unexpected reaction to a clients anger makes a huge inpression on the client. (point that shows this for example is the original poster would not have posted about this if it hadnt made some sort of impression on them where they felt they needed to post about it.)

after they explained that to me I could count many times in my therapy where it was the calm and quiet reaction of my therapists that made an impression of some sort on me. and because I was no longer getting the expected response from them I stopped exploding anger over certain situations.

my suggestion is look at the fact that for some reason this therapists reaction has made you think , made an impression on you of some kind and how their doing that is going to change your exploding in therapy. now because its made such a big inpressioon on you , maybe next time your anger wont be so explosive. maybe you will be able to like I did sit calmly and talk the problems out instead of exploding.
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Default Apr 20, 2021 at 05:09 PM
  #18
As soon as I read your post I thought of the parent child relationship. You see parents in the shops yelling at their children sometimes when the child acts out. You see them getting angry back at them. Sometimes you see parents in despair. Does that indicate that they care about the child? I'm not saying they don't care about the child but why is having a big response to a child acting out the only way to show caring. I think your therapist was holding your anger. Allowing it to be. Allowing you to express what is (apparently) a normal emotion. (I have serious issues with feeling and expressing anger) . I think him not being hurt by it shows more caring than blaming you. I think him not letting his feelings into the space is more caring than making it all about him. Just a thought.
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