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Default Jun 04, 2021 at 09:56 PM
  #1
It all started over something that made me feel like a burden. (I don't actually remember what that was). So she supported me with a phone call one night. It was super helpful. So I sent her an email afterwards asking for a little bit extra support to help me get through the next day. I told her anything will do. She writes me back at 11am the next day that yes she'll do that sometime before 7pm. I wrote her back telling her that I was asking for support to get through the day, not at the end of the day. From there, everything is blurry. I wanted her to call, she said she would call, she didn't call, I told her I was unsafe so she was supposed to call, but again didn't call. It was a f'ing mess.

The "rules" were a call is usually answered with a call, and an email with an email. But there are some exceptions. Twice a call was answered with an email because she wasn't able to talk, but could respond via email. Now emails are sometimes answered with a call: if I ask for a call, if emails are getting too confusing, if she can talk but not write, or if I express that I'm unsafe. Complicated, I know. But it's worked for 2 years until now. Now she says she won't call unless I call or say in an email I want a call.

So this week when I was struggling and confused, I wanted a call, but couldn't get myself to ask for it. I did, however, say I was unsafe. She didn't call...

We have now had 4 sessions this week, and we're still not resolved. She's been defensive and explaining things away. She's been more logical than meeting me emotionally where I'm at. She made me feel guilty for asking for the email support because her responding made her 5 mins late for another client. And I feel she attacked me for the Borderline by saying this confusion was due to my black and white thinking.

How do you survive something like this? Where you need your T's support, but she is the one that's hurting you?

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Default Jun 04, 2021 at 10:35 PM
  #2
Hugs, Scarlet. I wish I knew the answer.
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Default Jun 04, 2021 at 10:59 PM
  #3
It is so difficult when it’s the therapist who is causing distress. I have had major and minor incidents where the therapist’s action or inaction have caused me great distress. For me, the answer has always been to terminate. I’m not saying that’s always the answer, but it was appropriate in my circumstances. I don’t have the best memory of your history of rupture/repair with L, but I would encourage you to continue to try to mend once you’re in a place where you’re stable enough to do that. You mention logic versus emotion; I’ve found that I’m most effective when I’m in wise mind, so perhaps that’s something you could work towards.

I wanted to be respectful and answer the question you posed, but I also have other thoughts about the situation that are more solution-focused. Are you in a space where hearing something along those lines may be helpful?
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Default Jun 04, 2021 at 11:31 PM
  #4
ScarletPimpernel, you can survive something like this because, in the grand scheme if things, this is not a life or death situation.

It was a mis-connection.

It feels massive because the mis-connection occurred when you really needed a connection to be made. For whatever reason, it wasn't, even though you expected and needed it to be. But, on this one occasion out of all the many occasions, the connection failed.

The connection failed on this occasion. It has likely failed before, and may fail again sometime in the future. But most of the time your connection is good-enough, and you receive what you need, more or less.

You will connect again.
You will mis-connect again.

Even though you two mis-connected this time, you survived it. You got through. It would have been so much better /easier/safer if you had been able to get what you needed at the time that you needed it but, thankfully, you got through it.

How do you survive something like this? You remember all the times you did manage to connect, let the triggered feelings subside, wait for the emotional storm to pass, and then you connect again.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 01:24 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by daisydid View Post
I wanted to be respectful and answer the question you posed, but I also have other thoughts about the situation that are more solution-focused. Are you in a space where hearing something along those lines may be helpful?
I'm not sure if I'll find it helpful right now, but then again it might be. My mind is a jumbled mess right now. My memory is spotty. L says I need to take care of myself first: eat, rest, sleep, take some pain meds (for my knee). Then we will tease out the "dance", make apologizes, etc.

Anyways, yes, I welcome your advice. All I ask is for you to be gentle. I feel beaten and bruised emotionally.

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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 01:36 AM
  #6
Amyjay - You're right. I did survive it. You know how? I keep my promises. I've made 2 promises: stick to my safety plan and to have one more session to say goodbye/have closure. I've done both.

But I'm still struggling. I don't know how to forgive this especially when I feel she's trying to defend herself and blame me. She says it's not about blame, but making me feel guilty for making me a priority to sacrifice something, and to blame my Borderline feels like blame. Oh! And she's defending herself by saying she followed our "rules" and that she never answered an email with a call unless I asked.

I bet now she's going to change the "rules".

She says that she has never fought for me, pull me back, go after me, but that's not true either. There have been several times she has.

I know I'm stuck in emotional mind right now. I want this to be soothed, comforted, protected right now, but I have no one. I feel so alone in this.

Am I surviving, yes. And I'm hurting and suffering too.

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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 12:10 PM
  #7
I want to say that what comes next from me is steeped in my biases and experience. There are nuances to your relationship with L that I can’t understand. I think that a lot of problems in the therapeutic relationship come when there are expectations outside of the “hour.” L did not give you what you wanted and what you felt you needed in this situation. When there are precedents that something will happen in a specific way, when things don’t go that way it can cause problems. It’s important to keep in mind two things: time is finite and we are all only humans. It sounds like L has given you her best in this situation as far as her time and ability. I’d encourage you to give her some grace. Keep in mind that outpatient therapists are not designed to be crisis support.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 12:31 PM
  #8
When my T was the one hurting me, I took some time to see another T and figure it out (and heal the parts of me that were getting re-traumatized) before I went back to her. One thing that I took away from that experience was not only that my T is human and makes mistakes (which, duh, of course she does) but that she can also be wrong about whether something was a mistake and whether she handled it poorly. I trust her so much that it's hard to really believe that she can be wrong. Even wrong in a quiet, reflective moment when we're both trying to repair things. It doesn't mean that she's bad or untrustworthy or a failure as a therapist. It just means that she is maybe lacking in self-awareness about one particular thing and also very stubborn. It also sounds like maybe L got a little overwhelmed and defensive, so maybe she isn't taking care of herself well enough right now and you can give her a little grace for that. It doesn't make it okay for her to treat you in a way that feels bad to you, but it just is how it is right now.

I think sometimes we can get stuck in trying to repair things in a particular way or to feel a certain good feeling with somebody again right now that it becomes hard to get out of that rut. If you trust the foundation of the relationship, I think it's reasonable to believe that the two of you can move past this eventually. In the meantime, I hope you are able to focus on the basics of taking care of yourself and doing things to calm your nervous system because sometimes that's really all you can do until the storm passes.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 02:20 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by daisydid View Post
Keep in mind that outpatient therapists are not designed to be crisis support.
This is not something which Scarlet should need to keep in mind. The limitations of the therapist's role and remit are the sole responsibility of the therapist, not the client. Scarlet does not need to consider her therapist's boundaries when she is trying to manage her own struggle and hurt; upholding professional boundaries is the job of the therapist. I agree that crisis support is not the business of therapists, but
when a therapist extends a boundary in this way they need to be able to follow through or else don't offer crisis support in the first place.

Last edited by comrademoomoo; Jun 05, 2021 at 02:33 PM..
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 02:52 PM
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This is not something which Scarlet should need to keep in my mind. The limitations of the therapist's role and remit are the sole responsibility of the therapist, not the client. Scarlet does not need to consider her therapist's boundaries when she is trying to manage her own struggle and hurt; upholding professional boundaries is the job of the therapist. I agree that crisis support is not the business of therapists, but
when a therapist extends a boundary in this way they need to be able to follow through or else don't offer crisis support in the first place.
I agree that it depends on the therapist, their boundaries, their availability, and whatever agreement exists between therapist and client.

It seems, Scarlet, that you and L have the sort of agreement where L generally provides crisis support. However, it sounds like L has had inconsistent and unclear boundaries lately. The stuff about only email if contacted by email and only call if contacted by call sounds rather rigid. And also like she's been inconsistent with that.

If she doesn't feel that she's able to be there as much as you might want or need, then I feel she needs to let you know that up front. Even if it's a case of her saying "the majority of the time, I will be available to call or email, but sometimes I won't be available, and here's what you should do if that's the case." Because no one can be available at all times.

Also, in the case of her not being able to call/email until 7 that one day, is it possible she had other clients she was meeting with all day? I know some therapists are willing to reschedule (or be late to) another client to deal with one in crisis, but others are not. And I know it can be difficult to think that a therapist is prioritizing other clients. But I think of the time that ex-MC took a cell phone call from another client while H and I were in session with him. He was only on the phone for a couple minutes, but it was distressing to me that he opted to talk to another client while we were sitting there in the room with him (he did take it in the courtyard). I think it could help, Scarlet, for you to think about how you might feel if L was late to a session with you (or even canceled) because she was helping another client.

That being said, she should NOT have told you that emailing you made her 5 minutes late meeting with another client. That's on L (the decision to email you and push back her other client). She could have chosen not to respond to you right then. In choosing to respond to you, she should not have told you that she was late for another client because of you. It was her decision, and you're not responsible for that other client--L is. In the same way that you're not responsible for holding boundaries--L is.

I get the sense that L is struggling to uphold what she offered you in terms of crisis support, phone calls, emails, etc. She could be overextended or burned out right now (not your responsibility). Whatever the reason, it sounds like she can't be there in the way you want/need right now. So I think that seeking out other support, as Electric Manatee mentioned, could be a good option (I've done that when I have had ruptures/conflicts with my T, and it has helped). Including reaching out to T.

But you also may need to have a discussion with L, assuming you opt to work things out, about what realistic expectations are, when she feels she can call or email, with what frequency (and maybe what times of the day/what days), whether you need to contact her in a certain way to get a call, whether you need to explicitly ask for a call if you want one (vs. saying you're unsafe), etc. And you may need to adjust your expectations and wants for what she is willing to offer.*

I hope you're able to work it out.

*My T used to have a fairly open schedule (he opted to have a lighter caseload, like 30 sessions per week), such that I could ask for an earlier or extra session the next day, and he'd nearly always have an opening (or might add a session). With the pandemic, and a high need for mental health care in our area, he's taken on a greater caseload of clients than he'd prefer to have (like 40 sessions per week). So now he's often not available for an earlier or extra session. Which has been difficult for me to adapt to. But we've discussed it, and I've come to realize that it's just how things are right now, and I can't assume a session will be available if I want one.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 04:58 PM
  #11
I want to clarify two things. First, she is not a 24/7 T. She has made that very very clear. Two, if I reach out to L the night before, our deal is that she'll respond before noon or at least tell me when she can respond by if after noon. Which technically she did follow through with. And for that, I must give her grace. She said she was sick that morning otherwise she would have responded earlier. I didn't know this until after everything blew up, but still I must give her grace. I guess in order to keep to our agreement, she only had time to respond right at the start of another client's session. Again, I must give her grace for that.

Beyond that, no, I do not feel I should give her grace. I truly feel she wronged me. Being confusing about when to email and call, her misunderstanding me, giving me my space when I desperately need her, telling me about being sick and about her client without asking me if I want to know, using my Borderline diagnosis against me, not being more clear that she couldn't support me early in the day like I was requesting, not calling when she finally had the time and knew I felt unsafe, etc.

I wasn't asking for much from her. Maybe a sentence or two about encouragement or reassurance or something to help. I didn't understand why she had the time to reply at 11am, but not include anything supportive. It wasn't clear until after the fact.

L usually has good boundaries. I wouldn't say she has bad boundaries except for telling me about the other client. I don't think she's burnt out either. I honestly don't know what happened. I know she confused me and I confused her.

I thank you all for your perspectives. It's really helping me understand what happened for me, where I was hurt, and where I need to be forgiving. I've been having a really hard time holding onto both. L says it's like I'm a ping pong going back and forth between everything is bad and harmful to I must do whatever possible to not damage anything. At times, I blame myself for everything, and other times I can have anger at her, but am afraid of damaging the relationship.

I think the hardest part is that I need her to help me through this, but she's the one who caused the pain, and I'm scared of her.

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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 05:35 PM
  #12
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I think the hardest part is that I need her to help me through this, but she's the one who caused the pain, and I'm scared of her.
For me, this is usually a sign that I need to go sloooooow. Way slow. Even slower than I think I do. Because on the one hand, it's really important to get in touch with your gut instincts and to really listen to yourself and your needs. And on the other hand, trauma can cause you to have all sorts of reactions that may not be helpful or conducive to healthy relationships. So asking yourself how L is making you feel when you're in her presence, what you think her intentions are/were, and why she acted the way she did can be really helpful. That's where the repair can heal old wounds, but it isn't the kind of thing that can really be rushed or forced.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 06:36 PM
  #13
If we are serious about maintaining our safety, it is paramount that we have a safety plan that accounts for 24/7 support. Outpatient therapists aren’t equipped for that. Yes, it is our job to make sure we have a plan that keeps us safe. Not our therapists.

Having said that, I have an extensive history with this facet of mental health treatment and am willing to admit that my views may be biased.

Other than that, Scarlet, I wanted to point out a bit of black and white thinking that I noticed. Either you blame yourself for everything or you’re angry at her. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. What I made a point not to do in my previous post was to assign blame to either you or L. Simply that L is human and is subject to err in the same ways that we are. I guess the point that I was trying to make was that I don’t believe that she was acting out of malice. This is where grace comes in. We have the ability to decide that a person has wronged us and to forgive them. From what I know of your relationship with L, it sounds like you have worked well together in the past, and I think with time and asserting your opinions and grievances that you can overcome this. In addition, it will be up to you to evaluate how you’ve acted in this situation and decide whether or not you need to make change and grow from this. I have opinions, but ultimately you’re the expert on your own life.
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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 09:20 PM
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For me, this is usually a sign that I need to go sloooooow. Way slow. Even slower than I think I do. Because on the one hand, it's really important to get in touch with your gut instincts and to really listen to yourself and your needs. And on the other hand, trauma can cause you to have all sorts of reactions that may not be helpful or conducive to healthy relationships. So asking yourself how L is making you feel when you're in her presence, what you think her intentions are/were, and why she acted the way she did can be really helpful. That's where the repair can heal old wounds, but it isn't the kind of thing that can really be rushed or forced.
This is a good point. I do not think she acted out of malice. She never has shown a mean bone in her body, least not to me. I do still feel like she got defensive and what she did/didn't do still hurt me. But you're right, I don't she meant to do me harm.

I feel very nervous now when I'm with her. Very small. Very insecure and scared. We have to do grounding exercise to bring me back into my window of tolerance before we can even start discussing anything. I feel so uncomfortable when I first enter, that I've been skipping our hug. Once we get to discussing, I'm still very nervous. I can't keep constant eye contact with her when I used to be able to. By the time we say goodbye, I feel in a better space with her. I'm still able to tell her I love her, but it's hard taking in that she loves me. We've done our goodbye hugs. That is a mixed bag for me. She feels so comforting and safe, but I feel distant. I'm almost wanting more, but I don't know what more is. Maybe more love? More proof? Maybe to hold onto it longer? Oh, and we did do handholding on Thursday. That was good, and that I definitely wanted more. It felt static. Like there wasn't much movement so it didn't feel like there was much energy.

My next contact point is Monday morning, and my next session is Tuesday. I'll try to pay more attention to myself so she too can know what's going on with me.

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Default Jun 05, 2021 at 09:30 PM
  #15
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If we are serious about maintaining our safety, it is paramount that we have a safety plan that accounts for 24/7 support. Outpatient therapists aren’t equipped for that. Yes, it is our job to make sure we have a plan that keeps us safe. Not our therapists.

Having said that, I have an extensive history with this facet of mental health treatment and am willing to admit that my views may be biased.

Other than that, Scarlet, I wanted to point out a bit of black and white thinking that I noticed. Either you blame yourself for everything or you’re angry at her. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. What I made a point not to do in my previous post was to assign blame to either you or L. Simply that L is human and is subject to err in the same ways that we are. I guess the point that I was trying to make was that I don’t believe that she was acting out of malice. This is where grace comes in. We have the ability to decide that a person has wronged us and to forgive them. From what I know of your relationship with L, it sounds like you have worked well together in the past, and I think with time and asserting your opinions and grievances that you can overcome this. In addition, it will be up to you to evaluate how you’ve acted in this situation and decide whether or not you need to make change and grow from this. I have opinions, but ultimately you’re the expert on your own life.
I do have a safety plan!
1. Do coping skills (i.e. listen to music, take a shower, play with dogs, smell incense, crochet, etc.)
2. Talk to someone (i.e. H, mom, dad, sister, forums).
3. Contact L (and wait at most until noon the next day for a response).

If I can't wait for L or L can't help:
4. Crisis line.
5. Anxiety medication.
6. Hospitalization (and the hospital is already picked out and family also notified the preference).

L and I came up with it together. We adapted it from my other plan with T. I believe it is the T's responsibility to make sure the client has a doable crisis plan in place. It's up to the client to use it.

Eta: I have been using my crisis plan. That's how I made it through these days. And part of the reason I'm on here right now, discussing, exploring, trying to figure things out.

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Default Jun 06, 2021 at 12:31 AM
  #16
It's great you have a good crisis plan you made with T and that you are following. Good job!

From the issue itself I do not understand where the big hurt and anger comes from. Sounds like a minor miscommunication between you two. With a T that has proven to be kind and helpful. But she is a human who makes small (and even big) mistakes, might not have perfect memory, might not have a perfect day and so on. Sounds like you make a huge deal out of nothing really. I hope you get things talked through soon, like you always do. Good luck!
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Default Jun 06, 2021 at 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by elisewin View Post
From the issue itself I do not understand where the big hurt and anger comes from. Sounds like a minor miscommunication between you two. With a T that has proven to be kind and helpful. But she is a human who makes small (and even big) mistakes, might not have perfect memory, might not have a perfect day and so on. Sounds like you make a huge deal out of nothing really. I hope you get things talked through soon, like you always do. Good luck!
I do not find this supportive. Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's not a big deal to me. This IS a big deal to me. L even says so. She says it's my trauma parts that are reacting, and they deserve love, nurture, a voice, understanding, and curiosity. Saying it's not a big deal is dismissive of my pain and what I experienced. Just another person who tries to squash my feelings. It hurts. I hurt.

I do want to clarify too that I have not given up yet on my relationship with L. I am trying to work through this. That is why I'm posting here. If I gave up, this would be a different thread. Then maybe I could understand me getting a lot of resistance.

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Default Jun 06, 2021 at 04:57 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel View Post
I do not find this supportive. Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's not a big deal to me. This IS a big deal to me. L even says so. She says it's my trauma parts that are reacting, and they deserve love, nurture, a voice, understanding, and curiosity. Saying it's not a big deal is dismissive of my pain and what I experienced. Just another person who tries to squash my feelings. It hurts. I hurt.
.
I understand that this is a massive deal to you. I have been through this before too. Your T also agrees that your trauma parts are reacting, and they deserve love, nurture, a voice, understanding, and curiosity.

This current situation is not a life or death situation.
Your trauma parts are reacting as though it is.
I say that completely without judgement. That is merely an observation of what is.

This is all information about what is happening for you now. Something happened in the current-day relationship with your T that *triggered* your trauma parts into responding as though the trauma was happening in the current day. Even now when you see her you still feel unsafe - even though she has repeatedly proven herself to be safe in the past. Because something she did in the current day mirrored a trauma of the past and triggered a full-on emotional trauma response.

There is no invalidation from me here. Your trauma is real. Your current day trauma responses are real. Your emotional suffering is very real. Your brain grew on trauma, and responds "on trauma". You are *living* trauma.

When the trauma response recedes your internal world will calm down and you will be able to *think* again. Right now your trauma responses are still in high gear and your *thinking* brain is offline.

This is life with a trauma brain.

It will calm down... it will get better.
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Default Jun 06, 2021 at 08:53 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Amyjay View Post
I understand that this is a massive deal to you. I have been through this before too. Your T also agrees that your trauma parts are reacting, and they deserve love, nurture, a voice, understanding, and curiosity.

This current situation is not a life or death situation.
Your trauma parts are reacting as though it is.
I say that completely without judgement. That is merely an observation of what is.

This is all information about what is happening for you now. Something happened in the current-day relationship with your T that *triggered* your trauma parts into responding as though the trauma was happening in the current day. Even now when you see her you still feel unsafe - even though she has repeatedly proven herself to be safe in the past. Because something she did in the current day mirrored a trauma of the past and triggered a full-on emotional trauma response.

There is no invalidation from me here. Your trauma is real. Your current day trauma responses are real. Your emotional suffering is very real. Your brain grew on trauma, and responds "on trauma". You are *living* trauma.

When the trauma response recedes your internal world will calm down and you will be able to *think* again. Right now your trauma responses are still in high gear and your *thinking* brain is offline.

This is life with a trauma brain.

It will calm down... it will get better.
Thank you for this. I found it very validating.

L is a good T. Probably my best T. I think that's why it hurts so much and why the betrayal feels so big. I've put in 100% not only in my relationship with her, but in my therapy with her.

L says it will get better too. She used T's phrase "It's only temporary". She said first I have to take care of myself with rest, sleep, food, and pain meds for my knee. I've been doing that except for the pain meds.

I want to go back to how it was. I want to trust her again. I do not like this one bit.

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Default Jun 06, 2021 at 09:35 AM
  #20
I am sorry if this is hijacking your thread, Scarlet, but I want to say that I am also finding some of these comments useful in terms of my own ruptured relationship with my therapist (which I might start a separate thread about). The idea of going slow; accepting that our present responses are anachronistic responses to previous pain; knowing that this will pass are all useful reminders for me.

Something I struggle with is knowing the difference between my meaningfully working through the rupture to lead to increased trust in her/understanding of how I relate to others versus me burying my pain and not holding her (or me) accountable because I avoid feelings and have an unhealthy ability to tolerate toxic relationships. What's the balance?

Sorry again for the derailment Scarlet. Maybe you experience a similar confusion? Or maybe you are clear about when it is healthy for you to "go back to how it was"?
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