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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 03:05 PM
  #1
What if you don't agree about a core belief?

There are things about me that make me feel I am bad. L doesn't think I'm bad for these things. There are also things I've done that I feel are bad. L says she doesn't know enough about the topic and how I perceive it to determine whether she feels it's bad or not.

I want her to tell me I'm bad and what I did was bad. I want her to agree with me. I feel like we're in different realities if she doesn't. I feel that she doesn't understand or maybe even not taking it seriously. That she's falling back on her therapist role of being neutral. I don't want neutral! I want her opinion as a fellow human being.

What I did has to be wrong. It can't be right. I'd ask her to go research it, but there's not much research out there.

So have any experience with this? What do I do when L disagrees with a core belief about myself? I feel stuck.

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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 03:54 PM
  #2
Sometimes our core beliefs about ourselves are so deeply ingrained into our psyche, that it feels threatening if someone does not understand that belief or agree with it.

I had some deeply held mistaken beliefs about myself that drove my negative self-concept, my depression, my lack of confidence for decades. Reaching a place where I could re-frame those beliefs in a more neutral, even self-forgiving light, enabled me to finally see myself as others see me. It allowed me to finally let some old baggage go rather than continuing to self-flagellate. My view of myself improved, my depression waned, and my confidence increased.

My therapists helped me see those old mistaken beliefs for the fallacies that they were. They helped me see things in a context of reality so that I could stop having those ideas drive my thoughts and emotions and actions in my present life. It didn't mean I hadn't made mistakes previously; but, it did mean that I could see the context for those errors and move past them.

It can be frightening to let go of beliefs -- even when they are inaccurate. We've based so much of our life - our choices, our beliefs, our personality even - on what we have been certain is true. Keep an open mind about this. This isn't black or white. Much of our reality of our past is somewhere in between. The damage comes when we cling to our absolute black or white thinking about our past.
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 04:51 PM
  #3
I think there is (with some exceptions) a difference between doing something 'bad' vs. being 'bad' to the core.

Just like someone with a disability or illness... they are not the illness itself. Your T sees you as more than whatever bad thing(s) you've done.

Such a complete identification with the 'bad' deed or holding a belief that is so strong could be explored... It feels like punishment? Or keeping yourself jailed for a past misdeed.
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 05:15 PM
  #4
One, a t's prime directive may be "unconditional positive regard". Sorry, im a star trek fan. You cant get around the prime directive.

Two - god forgave us our original sin. Not to get religious, but enough people thought it was a good idea to make it a rule that people not have carp hanging over their heads FOREVER. Otherwise how can you live your life? You would always have an excuse for failure. When youve been neglected, not reflected back as a human being, its hard to know whats real and who you really are.

When you got a bad reflection, or even just because we are not perfect, we still have to put that into context OURSELVES. Like the first person a gay person comes out to is themselves.

My parents were so busy saying "dont be THIS" that they never acknowledged my many sundry millions of good traits. Thats like roller skating with wheels flying off.

Eta - ha! I havent had a good metaphor in a looong time!
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 05:25 PM
  #5
I never thought it was important for the therapist to agree or disagree with anything. Their position never mattered to me

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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 05:51 PM
  #6
Reading your post, it seems like it’s not just the belief that’s different but the attitude. You want to see yourself as bad, automatically biasing your view. She’s neutral.

So I don’t know that it’s about agreement or belief, it’s about desire, about the narrative you place yourself in.

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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 10:11 PM
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
One, a t's prime directive may be "unconditional positive regard". Sorry, im a star trek fan. You cant get around the prime directive.

Two - god forgave us our original sin. Not to get religious, but enough people thought it was a good idea to make it a rule that people not have carp hanging over their heads FOREVER. Otherwise how can you live your life? You would always have an excuse for failure. When youve been neglected, not reflected back as a human being, its hard to know whats real and who you really are.

When you got a bad reflection, or even just because we are not perfect, we still have to put that into context OURSELVES. Like the first person a gay person comes out to is themselves.

My parents were so busy saying "dont be THIS" that they never acknowledged my many sundry millions of good traits. Thats like roller skating with wheels flying off.

Eta - ha! I havent had a good metaphor in a looong time!

I so relate to this! The part about your parents being so busy saying "don't be THIS" and in my Dad's case "Do as I say not as I do or else" that they never helped me figure out what I could be, what I wanted to be. And instead often ridiculed what I loved - like my writing my dad would say things like "Who do you think you are that you think anyone would want to read what you write?" and stuff.
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 10:23 PM
  #8
Sometimes if the therapist wouldn’t agree with some negative belief I had about myself, I figured that she was too dumb to see the real me. There were a lot of variations on this, many of them centred around the idea that if she couldn’t see something bad about me, it was probably because she’d allowed me to deceive her.

Anyway it’s a bit stressful to believe that your therapist is kind of gullible. That was part of my motivation for trying to get her to see it my way.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 05:12 AM
  #9
I think what I'd do depends a bit on the belief itself.

If I walked into a Ts office for the first time and had reason to assume they don't believe in science, I couldn't work with them. There's certain things that for me we just have to agree on.

Then, there's situations that are more murky. I myself am currently in a kind of similar discussion with my T. My T thinks I should report an abuser who mistreated me years ago. I don't want to, because not only would it bring up a lot of old stuff and I don't think the abuser is a threat to anyone else, but also because I can't really feel that it was abuse. We have discussed this disagreement at lengths yesterday, because even though I can't tell yet whether there's also core beliefs about myself and the things you described in your post, if he disagrees with me it feels threatening to our relationship somehow.

One thing that certainly helps me is imagining somebody completely different going through everything I have. Not only that one situation that the belief is rooted in, but the whole thing leading up to it, from birth. Then, I think about whether I'd judge this person the same way, would I think they are bad, or that they were not abused, or that they were the best person in the whole wide world (this being kind of the opposite scenario where instead of devaluing everything I might idealize somebody way too much)?
For most people, they are not all good or all bad. I've done bad things, my abusers have done good things (even for me), my T always makes sure to point out he's also done bad things in the past... This usually shapes our perception of others, if I see my friend be kind and understanding 99% of the time but this one time he got really angry and lashed out at somebody for no reason, this doesn't mean I think he's always a bad person who can't do any good.

However, for me sometimes I only see one of the two sides. Taking my situation as an example, since my abuser was oftentimes good to me and I somehow managed to repress the anger about the abuse, I still see this person as a mostly good person and in my mind, I'd not want to have them arrested and in prison. Yet, if I imagine the exact same thing happening to a friend of mine and them telling me about it, I'd not see that abuser as a good person at all, nor would I agree with not reporting them, and I'd probably also express these opinions.

Thoughts like this don't help me necessarily feel any different, but it helps understand the other side. There's certain exceptions, when maybe your T is really just way off about their opinion and feelings, which is of course important to consider. But not only do I think that it's probably not the case with L, I also think that even then you'd have to think about possible counter-transference and all that, it wouldn't immediately be a bad thing.

Now, maybe talk to L about this if you can? Not the content of the disagreement, but the fact that you're struggling with the two of you disagreeing? My T said yesterday that having different opinions about topics and expressing that is good. It doesn't mean there's no overlap in agreeing on things at all, but it would be very exceptional to agree on everything. If the other person expresses an opinion different to yours, that doesn't have to mean that there's this huge separation between you and you disagree on everything, it can also mean that you can trust this other person, because they tell you how they feel about something, yet respect your own view of it and are willing to explore that with you.

He also told me to make sure to address it if I feel I disagree about something he said, it's a good way to learn from each other. If others just always agree with what you're saying, you don't consider new angles to things.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 07:55 AM
  #10
I don't think most of you know what the secret is. And I apologize, but I will never post about it again. I had some bad reactions on here.

I feel those who know or if they could know what the secret is, they'd judge me as bad too.

L and I spent all last session talking about this, and we plan to continue the conversation next week. She knows we disagree. She knows that it's really upsetting to me.

Okay, this is hard to explain. L says that because of childhood neglect, I wasn't taught certain things that children are taught. And because of human nature, I was curious. I feel like those are just excuses. L says that now that I'm an adult and have morals and values, I see things differently than when I was a child. Again, feels like an excuse.

However, let's say L had this secret. I wouldn't judge her. I think I wouldn't judge her because I have the secret. I'd like to think I wouldn't judge her if I didn't have the secret, but I don't know. She related it to monogamy and polygamy. I am monogamous, yet I can respect polygamy (please don't judge...this is just an example). Or she explained that she too has done bad things, but it doesn't make her a bad person.

She's been trying to teach me circle living, about core self. She says core self is not feelings, thoughts, or actions. Those things do not determine if the person is good or bad. Like your experience CNS, a "bad" person can do good things and a "good" person can do bad things.

Maybe I don't need her to agree with me that I'm a bad person. Maybe there's truth to L's explanation and what she's trying to teach me. But the secret itself is bad, and I want her to say it's bad. She says she doesn't know much about it to form an opinion. I wish she could go look it up, but a simple search will not produce research. It's too rare and that leaves me to believe it's wrong (for that reason and many others).

The one hopeful thing is that L says is that she can help me get rid of my thoughts, or at least make them not so powerful. She said we need to shine a light in the darkness so that they lose their power over me. I so want that. I asked her if it would work with other thoughts, and she said yes. So my goal is to keep processing this with her. I don't think getting rid of the thoughts absolves me of my past, but it would be a great relief to me

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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 10:01 AM
  #11
I don't know your secret. But I feel like what L said about what you didn't learn in childhood plus childhood curiosity makes a lot of sense.

Like, I know this is a really mild example, but if a child never learned that stealing is wrong, and they wanted something at the store that their parent wouldn't buy, it wouldn't be surprising if the child stole the item (or if they took it from a friend's house, say). As compared to an adult who *knows* stealing is wrong shoplifting or stealing from a friend. I think it's much easier to be forgiving and understanding of the child.

I understand your judging yourself more harshly than you might other people--I do the same. And it's something I'm working on in therapy. I like the idea of shining the light in the darkness so that the thoughts lose power over you. My T has tried to do some things like that with me. And also talked about positive things that have ultimately come out of the bad things, even if it's just that I better understand and can have greater compassion for others. Or in one case, something bad that I did that ultimately improved my marriage (even though it threatened it at the time).

And I agree that there's a difference between doing a bad thing and being a bad person. I'm not religious, but it makes me think of the line of "hate the sin, but love the sinner." We all do bad things, but it doesn't make us bad people, especially if we learn from them. I hope you and L and keep talking about it and that she can help you with it.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 12:50 PM
  #12
Your T sounds smart. She’s saying what I was saying about context. We all lived in a certain context that set the stage for our personalities, our emotions, our thoughts, our actions. Context matters.

I remember when I finally developed empathy for myself. I was in a group and realized how much I understood and deeply empathized with others who had gone through very similar experiences as I had. It finally struck me that I would never have blamed them or called them bad. They were kids and just living and responding and behaving in the context of the life they had been dealt. Not having that same level of empathy for myself as the child I was, living in my own context, honestly made no rational sense. I finally started forgiving myself, not that I really needed anyone else’s forgiveness, but it was time to let that child off the hook. It was unreasonable for the adult me to keep holding the child me to my adult standards.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 02:28 PM
  #13
Scarlet how is your ongoing self-recrimination serving you?

I mean this seriously, it’s not a rhetorical question.

Do you believe that feeling constant guilt/shame is some kind of punishment? Is it a kind of atonement or a way of preventing you from doing a terrible thing again?

Is there a way you can commemorate the bad thing you did, a ceremony, a ritual, a one-time or recurring donation, a kind of volunteer work, a letter to someone you hurt that either gets sent or doesn’t…. Something like that?

Can you honour and make room for your guilt and remorse, but make it a deliberate and limited amount of room, not have it permeate everything?

I think you’re a good person because of how much you’re wrestling with this. I’ll take your word for it that it was a truly terrible thing. Still I think that if everyone who once did a bad thing worked as hard on it as you, the world would be okay.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 02:44 PM
  #14
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 03:50 PM
  #15
Just got to have a mini session with L on the phone. It helped a lot. I was having thoughts of self-harm. I also have this feeling that I am tainting her by talking to her about it. She reassured me I'm not. She flipped the scenario and asked how I would feel if my niece told me such a thing. Honestly, I don't think I would judge her, I wouldn't feel tainted, I would want her to get help, and I would feel honored that she trusted me enough. L says she feels the same way. What meant the most is that she actually feels honored to help me. L says she doesn't want to take away my regret which made me feel better too. But she does want to help me with the shame by examining the roots of the situation.

I also talked to H about it a little. He said he knew L and I would talk about it at some point, and gave me a big hug. I asked him if he was mad at me, and he too reassured me he's not.

Yes, I feel this shame as a type of punishment. And yes I feel it's serving me by atoning and for prevention. There is no way I know of to make up for such a thing except for never having it happen again and trying to be a good person.

Thank you FJ for your kind words. I do appreciate it even though it's hard for me to take in. I do try so hard to be a good person as much as I can. I know I can't be perfect, and that's another issue L and I are going to work on.

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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 03:53 PM
  #16
Thank you all for your input. I'm trying my best to process this and it is helping. It also helps when your opinions coincides with L's opinion.

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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 04:17 PM
  #17
I think it would be a sign of a bad therapist telling a client that they are bad people. Even if whatever you did was not a good decision or what not, I can’t imagine therapist telling you that you are a bad person. It sounds that she works with you on whatever is that you need to work on and has no plans to label you one way or the other. Sounds like a good therapist to me
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Default Oct 17, 2021 at 04:02 AM
  #18
I once had a T ask me if I didn't think my reaction was kinda normal. I'd have believed he was drunk if you told me.
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Default Oct 19, 2021 at 12:06 PM
  #19
Echoing FJ. Going to write about the Bad Thing I condemn myself for, perhaps in similar ways to you, Scarlet. And how perhaps making some form of symbolic amends could help? I personally feel I need to atone all my life.

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Default Oct 19, 2021 at 06:27 PM
  #20
QM - would you mind if I pm you?

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