[ScarletPimpernel]

So I've been talking to L a lot about my fears of not being grounded in reality for multiple things. One my fears (triggered by another thread) is that my transference clouds my perception of who she really is. At first she was worried that I thought she wasn't being herself around me. That definitely isn't true. She's weird and quirky and makes mistakes and is honest, etc. But after reading that thread, I fear that maybe seeing her as a mother-figure is my own illusion/delusion? We haven't had the time to explore this specific question, but she did say that she feels motherly to me sometimes too.

Anyways, we've been talking about me fearing l'm out of touch with reality. She explained to me that one of the key causes of Borderline and often PTSD is chronic invalidation. Never heard that before, though to be honest, I haven't kept up with any current research on Borderline. But I really resonate with it.

I just want to bring it up if anyone else can relate. And maybe that's why some struggle with trusting themselves, their perception, their wise-mind? Maybe that's why some fear that they don't really know their therapist or think they made up a version of them? I don't know. I just feel like this little nugget of information was like an ah-ha moment for me. I'm not saying that transference can't cloud our perception, but that maybe this is a reason behind it.

Thoughts?

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Sorry for the wall of text, I think it's an interesting topic.

Being invalidated a lot is certainly a feature that lots of people have in their past who develop BPD. I don't know whether it's a cause, I don't follow research that closely.

For me, a lot of the invalidation probably comes from being told that "I don't feel the way I do/am exaggerating/am acting unreasonably". I can't remember specific details from childhood on it for the most part, but one time as a young adult, I can recall an instance with my mom that illustrates this well (trigger warning for domestic abuse):

Possible trigger:

I was in my first year in college and was living off-campus with a friend I had made. I woke up one night to loud banging sounds and a woman yelling "please, stop" repeatedly. I woke up my friend who was still sleeping, and asked her what we should do. It was my first time experiencing anything like that, plus I was in a foreign country, I wasn't too confident on what to do. She called her dad, a former cop, and he told her to dial 911. A few minutes later we could hear the cops talking and I think they separated the two. We never got more info on what had actually happened, so I was quite uncomfortable for a while. Could have been a guy who just entered the apartment. Could have been a couple. Could have been a neighbor.

So, when my mom arrived at the apartment that we were kind of babysitting for her while she was not in the States, my roommate decided to tell her about the situation, since my mom would stay there alone and is a pretty slender, unmusculare woman. Just to be safe. My mom responded that the roommate shouldn't worry, I'd certainly only overreacted to the situation, as I often do.

In this instance, I was very glad that my roommate had been there. I could kind of be sure that something had actually happened that did warrant a call to 911. If it had only been me and my mom, I'd probably have questioned my own perception of things. Was there really a reason to call anyone? Should I just have put in some earplugs and went to sleep again? Is there a reason to feel uneasy at home now?

If a healthy adult gets scared, they feel some fear and at the same time know whether there's an actual reason for it. No, there is probably no giant monster in the dark basement, if you disregard spiders. But if I imagine a small child that somehow gets scared, and the emotions are as intense as I experience them, and somebody goes "ah, you're just exaggerating again, there's no need to be scared", then how do I know whether there *is* a reason? And how do I learn that other people don't seem to experience emotions the way I do?

I think this is very connected to our perception of others. If you do not learn these things as a child, it's easy for there to be "misunderstandings". You might think a gesture you associate with a certain emotion is tied to the same intense emotions that you'd experience yourself. Or that your emotions are way off and you have no reason to feel the way you do.
For example, for me, if I'd give my T a handmade gift, it'd be a thing I'd made with great love and care. If my T would give me a handwritten note intended for me, I'd find it hard to actually reasonably gauge how much attention, care and love has gone into that. I've learned both that my emotions aren't valid and way over the top, yet sometimes they also turn out to be right. I have no idea how others feel. So, depending on the relationship to my T at the moment, I could see me assuming my T is just doing this because he has to and actually he hates me, or he spent multiple hours thinking about how he'd write every last word, or everything in between. How do I know which of my impressions are real and which ones are not if my own emotions about things are invalid, so I have no way of knowing what others feel?

I would classify thinking nothing about the note was true or well-intended as negative transference that comes from experiences where I thought I was right in assuming somebody was like I experiencing wonderful, positive feelings, but then it turned out I was completely off and didn't feel validated in my experience of our interactions. On the other hand, if I'd think it's the most important thing he's done all week, even if it's just my new prescription, that'd be positive transference, stemming from instances where I felt I was right in assuming everything was great, even if maybe that wasn't correct or exaggerated by me.

Sometimes it's easy to keep the things in our heads apart from reality. That might still be transference, I *know* my T doesn't write my prescription for hours and with great love, even if I feel very happy about it. At other times it's difficult to keep apart, if I just had a fight with my T and he now writes a nice note for me, does he really mean that or is he just hiding his madness?

[ScarletPimpernel]

I correct myself: L did not say it was a cause of BPD. Chronic invalidation is usually seen in BPD and PTSD. Sorry about that!

[divine1966]

I think it’s true not only in relation to a therapist but in other aspects of life. I routinely misinterpreted or minimized or exaggerated what I perceived was happening in my relationships with people. I often refused to see what’s really there or exaggerated what was there but was really insignificant.

I don’t have BPD or PTSD (although I did have a lot of traumatic experiences). But I do wonder if these things stem from how we grow up. Then we kind of continue the cycle. I sometimes minimize what other people might feel because I really don’t think it’s really that big of a deal. It might appear as I lack empathy. Certainly I don’t. I help a lot of people but sometimes I think they all have to suck it up as it’s not that big of a deal. Why? Because that’s how I was raised. Just suck it up so to speak, it’s a sign of strength.

Sorry didn’t mean to go on tangent but I think you are on to something here

This seems a bit tangled to me. Your transference gives you information about your self, it doesn't confirm or disprove anything about her. Projections are not delusional because they say something true about your internal world. However, they also don't give you information about the other. She might experience positive or negative counter transference as a result of your transference (her maternal feelings for example), but again this is information which is used to look at your place in the world not hers.

I believe that we know our therapists (especially if they work relationally) and that our relationships are real and meaningful. However, it is a limited knowing in a very specific context, no matter how much they disclose or strive to be authentic. We can't possibly know their full self and we are not in holistic relationships with them, this is the categorical reality of therapy. It sounds like the thought of only knowing a version of her is an intolerable tension for you, as if it invalidates your own sense of self by undermining your confidence in your own experiences and judgements. Your self is not reliant on her.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I don't think you have to have BPD or PTSD to have experience chronic invalidation.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I don't think you have to have BPD or PTSD to have experience chronic invalidation.

Of course not

[divine1966]

I don’t think example of feeling material transference is an example of not being grounded in reality or being delusional.

If you said she is actually your mother, this would be an example of not being grounded in reality and perhaps having delusions. In reality she’s not your mother.

But simply feeling transference doesn’t make it delusional.

Feelings aren’t facts. Feelings aren’t right or wrong and they don’t need to be proven by facts. Like if you said you are sad, it’s neither real or unreal, it’s just what you feel. If you said I am sad because I was just titled “the queen of the universe” but no one is bowing to me, that would be a bit of a different story

It’s understandable to have maternal transference. I think you have nothing to worry re “realness” of it

[unaluna]

Scarlet - i understand what you are saying in post #1. And i agree with it. Its so hard to explain. When parents invalidate you at the simplest level, it effs you up. You dont know whats real.

[Brown Owl 2]

I can also really identify with being invalidated by my mother. I think she dismissed my emotions as a child, she seems to have some kind of belief that when people express emotions they aren’t real. She also invalidated my perspective on things. I came to understand this when I was having therapy when I observed the emotions that came up for me when a therapist didn’t respect my perspective, also the good emotions that came up for me when a therapist did respect my emotions and perspective on things. I think my mother’s invalidation made me feel that my emotions weren’t real. It also has made very hesitant in sharing my thoughts with others. After I’d been going to therapy for a while I realized that one of the benefits of therapy for me was that, when it was working well, I was sharing my thoughts with my therapist, and experiencing this to be ok, and I shared my thoughts more with my friends and family as a result.