Discussing Core Issues

(Please see my previous posts to understand the background of this post)

I finally got my husband to go back to couples therapy today. The session was less than successful in that we left there having gained no ground. Now certainly I don't expect a miracle cure in one session, but the tone left me feeling hopeless.

I'm trying to look at things with an open mind and beyond all of the pain and anger that is in the forefront, but this particular issue is picking at my last nerve.

Here's the issue...

The therapist doesn't want to discuss the impact my husbands depression has had on our marriage.

This is a HUGE problem for me because my husband blames his depression on our marriage. More specifically on me personally. Where he has had depression since he was an adolescent, years before I entered the picture.

So the impasse is that I feel the depression is at the core of our problems. That it brought a specific dynamic to our relationship that has escelated for the past 18 years.

My husband on the other hand feels that while he had "problems and issues" and was "a pretty big jerk" (his words) prior to our marriage, that if he had married someone else, he would not have depression.

The therapist said that this issue was "too Freudian" and that his experience is to peel the problem back in layers which means focusing on the here and now and working backwards if that is where it leads.

While I can understand this on some level, I desperately need closure. Not to blame my husband per say, but rather the depression. To put a direction on the issue. Especially since this problem is not going to go away.

Thoughts? Perspective? Anyone?

tautologic,

Dealing with a spouse who is suffering from depression can be really overwhelming. Especially if they deny it and project the image of a super guy when in public. I have recommended the following book and message board several times.

Anne Sheffield Depression Fallout
http://www.depressionfallout.com/

It is a great starting point and deals specifically with the effects of depression on other family members. You will find that it is common for the spouse to be blamed.

You might consider calling or doing some background work on your current therapist. You need to make sure the T you are working with has a lot of experience with depression and its fallout on other family members.

Although I have a zillion problems myself, I first started T because my husband's depression was resulting in him verbally abusing my kids. Although I am not an expert in selecting T's, I did go to my first session with some very specific questions about her treatment approach regarding depression.

Finally, you mentioned in one of your other post that your T when you talked to him about what you were going through, did not provide you with much support. Is your couples T the same T?

My husband went to 1 therapy session and has refused to go again. I've since decided that I can't make him get help, but I can get help for me. That's what I'm doing now, helping myself.

Hi Mckell,
Thanks for responding.

I have actually read the Fallout book and it was definitely right on the mark. In fact, I have read alot of books and gone to many group sessions that support this line of thinking.

My problem is in incorporating it into our lives. Like you said, my husband has alot of denial over its impact. Mostly stemming from his anxiety of having a diagnosis in the first place. I get that. I truly do. But what I am tired of overlooking is his refusal to see its impact on me. On us. On the family.

I don't know how to get the "background" info of the T. Other than being referred to him, how can I know if he is good with depression or not?

As for T support. This guy does seem to support my position in relation to my husbands behaviors. We have talked about it several times on an individual basis when my husband wouldnt' go to therapy. But when we got there together today, he said he wanted to take the depression out of the equation. That it was a non subject as far as our "couples therapy" was concerned. I don't get that. When I questioned it, he didn't supply a satisfatory answer.

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tautologic said:
But when we got there together today, he said he wanted to take the depression out of the equation. That it was a non subject as far as our "couples therapy" was concerned.

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It sounds like to me that the therapist wants the two of you to talk to each other where you are now, rather than talking about what "caused" where you are now. The depression is a dead "thing" an abstract dead thing at that. I think he wants your husband and you to deal with what is happening now; your husband is determined to avoid his behaviors now and it sounds like you are trying to pin down what caused the problems in the marriage instead of just working to solve them?

Knowing the problems were 87% caused by your husband's depression which he'd had since a teenager relieves you a little maybe but doesn't do anything about the situation anymore than your husband's claims that marrying you is 87% of the reason he is/was depressed. Take the depression out and what have you got? Two people not trying to pass the buck either to the depression or to the other person. Instead, all that's left is the 13% each person has that is "them". Make that bigger and it will make the two 87%'s smaller. Probably not possible in a couple on their own but with a "referee" in the guise of the therapist, could happen. If it doesn't work, what will have been lost?

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tautologic said:
I don't know how to get the "background" info of the T. Other than being referred to him, how can I know if he is good with depression or not?

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Do you have a local hospital? Luckily I had a good friend who was a nurse at our local hospital, I asked her to speak with the other nurses on the psych floor to see what there interaction/opinion was about my T. This works well if you have someone on the inside who can get the real lowdown. If you don't have this you can simply call the hospital ask to speak with someone on the psych floor and ask who they would recommend. Make your question person, 'if you had a family member suffering from depression who would you recommend they see?'

Also, you can contact the psychology department at a local college or university. Often times you can get the name of a professor who teaching or publishes in the area of depression. They would likely have extensive knowledge about the local professionals and their specialties. Or you could contact the University's health center and ask who they refer students to locally. Often they use professionals who also have private practice in the community.

I get that point Perna, but I feel very invalidated by that idea. Because it still allows my husband to believe that his depression isnt a factor.

After all we have been through and how much I have had to endure because of this disease, I have lost plenty. I feel that I deserve this. It is a closure for me which will allow me to move on to healing.

It is like having your mate cheat on you and then saying "well, the affair isn't important. What is important is what you are doing now in the relationship" Which btw is also a truth in our case.

tautologic,

First let me say sorry things are not going very good for you right now. I don't have answers I wish I did. I can only speak from my own experience. It is normal that you would want to deal with your husband's deppresion together and the sooner the better and I don't
blame you. Your therapist might not want to come across as you and him against your husband. Your husband not wanting to be their anyway would only be more angry. Thearpist's are able to deal with a problem in a round about way and you don't realize it. That may be what he was trying to do. I would ask him in your private session if he does not address it. I would not give up on the therapist just yet, give it a chance to help, if not for you and your husband then let it help you. I would tell your husband if he does not want help for himself or your marriage that you can not make him get it but that you have made a deceision that you are going to get help for yourself and your children, try not to seam confrontive men hate it and if he is depressed he will react with anger because that is what dpression is anger turned inward. As far as your kids go you owe it to them I don't know how old they are but that really doesn't matter if you don't do something, your kids may one day look at you and say, were we not imporant enough for you to do something, or why didn't you do something to stop dad from hurting us physically and verbally. I am sure that you love your children, but that is not how it comes across to them and they will be where you are now years from now. Hope this helps alittle. Take care of yourself and your kids.

If it did take your husband ages to get into therapy, it may be that you blame all the problems of the marriage on his depression. I wouldn't want to have couples counseling if all we were going to talk about is my depression. It is essential to address problems on both sides of the relationship. Right now you CANNOT change the past and the previous effect the depression might have had. As to the case of the affair, I'm sorry. I think the therapist may want to work on the here and now to allow your husband to feel comfortable with the process, because if he's not then he will stop coming either physically or mentally or emotionally. Later you may move to some of the sticking points from the past but, and I hope you are not offended, you have been part of the problem as well as your husband and his depression.

dkwynn:
There isn't alot of evidence in your freudian idea that depression is anger turned inward. Generally it's hurt, sadness, despair, and who-knows-what is the case of bipolar type depressions. Yes sometime people lash out when they are hurt but it's not because of anger.

I blame MOST of our problems on his depression yes. And so have all of the other 4 couples counselors we have seen. To which my husband has quit going each time it has come down to that.

As I noted in previous posts, it has several times been related to that of a marriage with an alcoholic mate. The alcoholic brings a specific dynamic to the relationship. Until that problem is solved, there can be no addressing "other" issues. I do agree that addressing them will be necessary. But until this core problem is settled, we cannot move forward as has been seen over the past 8 years of dealing with this.

As for "allow your husband to feel comfortable" that whole "vulnerable" argument is infurating. Why is it HIS mental problem take precident over MY PAIN???? I have lived with this BS to as great a degree as he has. I have picked up the pieces time and again. Constantly having to be the "strong one" because I am "healthy". Well then, VALIDATE ME! I deserve at least that much. Why is this such a hard issue to comprehend?

Hostility. You betcha sweetheart. Im sick of the ill person getting all the sympathy while the "caregivers" (i hate that term) are left silently in the lurch to "take care of" themselves?

So really then, I ask you. Exactly what "part of the problem" have I been? Was it when I was being supportive? Was it when I was going to therapy on my own to learn to cope and deal with the problem because he wouldn't? Was it when I played mommy and daddy to the kids all these years because he didnt' have the emotional interest? Was it when he came to ME because he was suicidal and I helped him survive? Was it when I forgave and forgave and forgave and said "lets try again" and picked him up out of his depressive stupor because I wanted to see him succeed?

Codependant? Oh yea. But not anymore. And this infuriates him because I wont engage in the arguments. I wont fix his messes. I wont make excuses. Now all of a sudden I am making him depressed because of learning to stand on my own two feet and set boundaries.

Tell me. How can I be doing everything I'm being told to do and yet still be wrong?

tautologic, there have been some good answers here. I wonder if your husband is still depressed or is that in the past? I can see it would be challenging to work on the marriage if he is still depressed or not working on that. If he is still depressed, is he seeing a therapist to help with that? Taking meds? I am in the process of a divorce. Both me and my husband became depressed and I believe for both of us, it was because of the marriage. Bad life situations can make people depressed. It is entirely possible that an unhappy marriage affected your husband's mood and this in turn made the marriage worse. The two are probably totally entangled. I think it very important that your husband work on his depression if the marriage is to improve. I hope your therapist will encourage him to get help.

I think couples counseling is tricky (I've been there). At some point, if you want things to improve, you do have to work on disfunctional communication patterns, getting along TODAY, etc. That can be hard to do if one is playing the blame game (you had an affair, you were depressed all the time, you made me depressed, etc.) or the "if game" (if I hadn't married you, I would never have gotten depressed). Well, the fact is what's done is done, he did marry you, he has been depressed for whatever reason, one of you did have an affair, etc. Sometimes you just have to put that stuff on hold while you work on concrete things like communication, fidelity, etc. I think if a person is willing to change (improve communication, stop sleeping around outside the marriage, etc.), that is a good step in the right direction and bodes well. It's not possible to change what we did in the past, but we can try to change what we do today. It sounds like your T wants to work on today. But I do think it essential your H have his depression under control in order for there to be success. I think it will be helpful if you can talk all this out with your T in your individual sessions. Maybe he has some words of reassurance about the path he wants to take and how it interfaces with your own potential for healing.

tautologic, you can also ask your T face to face about his background and experience. Most T's are happy to give it.

Best of luck.

Sunrise thank you for responding.

No he is not dealing with his depression at the moment. He has decided that he no longer has depression. That he merely has "marital conflict".

In august he took himself off of his Wellbutrin cold turkey. Last month his PDoc helped him wean off of his Effexor because he feels he no longer wants or needs to take them. Since then he has become hypomanic and rageful. Punching walls, buying a car we cannot afford, not sleeping etc.

His individual T and his Pdoc have never met me. My husband claims it is their "advice" to have this situation. Our couples counselor who is in the same practice, told me on one of our separate sessions that my husband wouldn't attend, that he feels it is most definitely my husbands doing because the other T doesn't usually work that way. He also expressed that it is not how T is normally done when there is a supportive spouse involved.

As for the past, I'm not asking for it to be undone. I'm asking for it to be validated.

Thanks for explaining, tautologic. It sounds like your H still has mood problems and needs some help with that (either meds, therapy, etc.). I think it would be very hard to patch up a marriage in that situation. I can tell you have put up with a lot. I'm sorry. This all sounds like so much.

Do you know if YOU want to stay together? One thing my T had me do once was make a list of reasons I wanted to stay in the marriage and reasons I wanted to leave. I seemed to be stuck in the decision process so he thought this might help. It was a real eye opener to me that I could rapidly scrawl out 25 really good reasons to leave the marriage, and then had to think hard about a half dozen or so reasons to stay. I guess I just wonder, do you want to stay in the marriage? Does your H want to stay in the marriage?

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He also expressed that it is not how T is normally done when there is a supportive spouse involved.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that he believes your therapist is taking an unusual approach in couples therapy? If so, what does he think would be better? (And I'm not sure what you mean about the supportive spouse. Is that you? That you are supportive of the marriage continuing? Is your H supportive also?)

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I'm asking for it to be validated.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Maybe that will come in your individual therapy sessions and your T will provide the validation. Somehow, from what you've written, I doubt your H will provide this.

Sunrise,
Yes I've done the list too. It is obviously bleak. My three main reasons for staying however, are deeply emeshed in me.
1. My vows. For better or worse. I have an obligation to God, myself and him.
2. My children. To leave would disrupt their whole world. I wouldn't be able to maintain the same quality of life.
3. On a very huge level, he is a part of me. Dissolving our marriage would be like cutting off my leg.

My husband wants to stay so long as he isn't thinking I want to leave. What I mean is, he has serious issues with rejection and control. So if he thinks I am on the verge of walking out, he will do it first so that I wont make him look foolish or "hurt" him. (vulnerability again damn) If I take the initiative at "working on things" he will too. But he will never initiate or take responsibility. Because that would mean he is conceeding to my wishes. Which of course is emasculating to him. ( I know, makes no sense but it is how he thinks)

I believe my hubs individual T may be taking an unusual approach to my husbands therapy. That is, if my husband is telling the truth. Which our couples therapist has said "it is probably what hub is hearing but not what is actually being said" in his individual therapy.

And your last sentence is the problem. I need for my hub to validate me and the situation. Because every time we get to the nitty gritty, he blames me for the depression and stops working on things. He cannot accept he has a diagnosis and therefore must place the blame on me to feel comfortable with it. Im sick of it.

He had D way before I met him. He brought it into our marriage and it has caused problems. Until he can accept that, we have no future peace.

Hi Tautologic,

I think that it makes sense to discuss the "fallout" first and then together you can make your way to the underlying cause. So, rather than saying it is the depression that you need to deal with, and that causes every problem, maybe you could describe the problems first?

You might find that some of these problems and issues have other causes, and that your husband's depression is a manifestation of other issues as well?

I know that when I began therapy a year and a half ago I had very different ideas about the root of my problems than I do now. I don't mean to minimize the effects of depression because it is difficult to live with. It's just that I have found that our problems are rarely as simple as we think they are .

I wish you both well.

Good luck!

Peace

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tautologic said:
I blame MOST of our problems on his depression yes.

Tell me. How can I be doing everything I'm being told to do and yet still be wrong?

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Tautologic, what do you want? Do you want the marriage to change and stay in it or do you just want to move on now, away from the husband and his destroying depression? You can move away from the husband and his depression but you cannot destroy the husband and his worldview.

I don't think the marriage can get better with looking at it in terms of right/wrong and settling scores. I understand your anger and desire to be personally validated but I don't think that is possible in this marriage at this time? Just as you feel invalidated, your husband has dropped out of all the therapy beforehand because he has felt invalidated. His beliefs are just as strong as yours are. Looking at the people and personally validating either person's point of view destroys the marriage because the other person is not able to see or support that worldview. You all are stuck.

Yes, the way you have presented it you are right, his depression was there before the marriage and got worse while you all were married. I don't know if he hadn't been depressed whether the marriage would have been a good one or not. The problem there is, whether or not "if he hadn't been depressed," the marriage was not a good one! That can't be changed. The problem is, whether he was a happy-go-lucky young lad and the marriage was not a good one so he became depressed, that can't be changed either. Where the depression came from, doesn't matter. Whether it was his depression from when he was young or the marriage's depression, what he did still counts. If the depression gets thrown out, that doesn't negate his actions or yours. Neither of you can blame the depression, not just you.

The problems become, "I cared for the children all by myself and I felt used by you." And, "Your affair took away any respect I felt for you and hurt my self-esteem." There's no depression there, just the straight how you feel, what needs to be seen/dealt with.

i'm going through a seperation right now because i chose to focus on me and not someone else's needs. My H also has an illness, allbeit one that causes psychosis along with everything else.

People are giving very good answers i think.

The thing that stands out for me though is the need for blame in order to have closure and healing. Your intent then is to stay married? It doesn't sound like it except when you say that.

In my own case, which maybe there is a point or two you can glean, i wanted H to accept and understand the portions which i am laying at his doorstep. He doesn't. i keep trying. He still doesn't. It will continue that way until i stop trying to get that. He simply isn't going to give it to me. His priorities and needs are different, he is doing whatever he needs or wants to do to process this. Right now that means blaming me for *not* blaming his illness - ironic no?

We all do what we need to and we cannot hope to make someone else do what we need or want them to. If your healing is dependent on what someone else does then you will always fall short. This is true even if your intent is to stay married.

Others here have told you to focus on yourself and i second that. i just wanted to say the above as well. Placing your healing on his plate is not going to get healing for you, it will keep you trapped in the very cycle which has gotten you to this point. Is it fair? Not one bit. Giving care to someone with an illness of any sort, and invisible one like depression being tougher IMO, is a hard job that rarely pays out more than you give. It doesn't always pay out at all.

If your husband blames you for all of these things, then let him. Does it not say more about him? How does his belief that it is your fault make it true? Does that matter? Why? (other than that urgency for fairness) These are things to ask yourself.. when something hits us deeply it often means there is a lot of history which builds to it... that can mean your own history or simply the marriage history. My guess is that you have felt short changed, unfairly blamed, and without due credit for longer than this process... yes? Is it a theme from day 1? Does it also feed into other experiences? Is this a pattern you take with you elsewhere? Also, self questions.

your anger is valid i think, no issues there... as my T often says, feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Same here. Your anger in the thread at different themes (such as your pain not being equal to H's, etc) - these are not about what is said here. These are just words on your screen, typed in by someone who doesn't know you from eve... yet they anger you.. what i am trying to get at is that this anger is bigger than you are focussing on i think.

i don't know if you'll find any value in any of what i said. i hope you do. Either way, there is no offense intended, certainly no minimalization or invalidation intended. Personally i think you have every right to feel angry, regardless of what H thinks. You can take or toss any or all of this.

i do hope you can find your own path to a sense of peace, with or without H by your side.

(((tautologic)))

You have every right to be angry, resentful, and tried of being the responsible one who is holding everything together. Dealing with this situation can pull even the most resilient person down into a deep whole that it so tough to dig out of. I've been there, dip down there occasionally. Although my situation has gotten somewhat better over the past few months, I am still walking on eggshells and waiting to be pulled down yet again. The affect this has had on my 10 yr old is still really painful to see as a mother.

My first attempt at therapy was to get help for my son. After a few visits to T for me, my son, and my husband. It was decided that I was likely the key to changing the system at this time. If I helped myself, I could facilitate changes within the family to improve things.

So far I feel therapy has done the following for my family:

My husband became very upset during his individual session and if nothing else it helped him realize I was serious about the need for change.

I'm not sure exactly what happened during my son's individual sessions, but he seems more willing to talk to me, tell me how he is feeling, and ask me for help.

As for me, I've come face to face with how damaging my husband's depression and abuse was on me personally. For some reason I had no idea how profoundly I had been affected over the years. It was only when I lost it myself, disconnected, and left my kids in direct harms way did I finally see the problem.

Honestly, Tautologic based on what you've written here I think the fact that you are expressing your anger and intolerance for the status quo as a good thing. My approach was to ignore, tolerate, and and constantly have multiple workaround options. In the end this just enabled the situation to get worse and worse.

You said you read the Sheffield book. Check out this link from her website.
Casting the "it" as Villain

I just also wanted to add that I listed similar reasons for staying married when my T asked me that question. Although we have never talked directly about religion, I sensed that Christian values influence her perspective on things. Having said this, she quite easily countered each of my reasons to say.

At this point, until I straighten out some of my own issues, I'm staying. But this may not alway be the case.

Is the goal of the couples therapy to validate your feelings and thoughts of blame or to improve the marriage? Because I am not sure you can do both.

Perna, I guess that is a big part of the problem. HE will blame his depression for the really bad things he has to face that he has done to me. And then expect it to be dismissed because of it. So how can he then turn around and blame ME for the marriage being bad? It seems he is the only one to be able to use the diagnosis to his advantage.

"If your husband blames you for all of these things, then let him. Does it not say more about him? How does his belief that it is your fault make it true? Does that matter? Why? (other than that urgency for fairness) <font color="green"> Yes fairness is a good word </font> These are things to ask yourself.. when something hits us deeply it often means there is a lot of history which builds to it... that can mean your own history or simply the marriage history. <font color="green"> The marriage history. I didn't have these problems or feelings before him. </font> My guess is that you have felt short changed, unfairly blamed, and without due credit for longer than this process... yes? Is it a theme from day 1? <font color="green"> yes and not day one but it started at the end of our first year. Before that time, the therapists have explained that he was in a "honeymoon phase" where his depression was distracted by the newness of marriage </font> Does it also feed into other experiences? Is this a pattern you take with you elsewhere? <font color="green"> no, I don't have these problems in any other area of life. Work is great. Social life is great. Mothering is great. Only my relationship with my husband is messed up. </font> Also, self questions."