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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 11:57 AM
  #1
After my parents divorced I lived with my alcoholic, depressed mum for a few years. I tried to help her, but I wasn't able. When I just couldn't face living with her anymore, I moved to my Dad. I had a seperate entry and kitchen and noone really cared for my emotional well-being. My father said I was old enough (I was fourteen).

T almost made me cry today, saying what he did was wrong. That I was too young. I love my father. I know he made mistakes, but it wasn't his fault. He didn't know better, did he? Or did he just not care, wanting to live an undisturbed life with his wife, leaving me to call the shots on my life... I just don't know anymore.

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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 12:14 PM
  #2
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Originally Posted by AliceKate View Post
After my parents divorced I lived with my alcoholic, depressed mum for a few years. I tried to help her, but I wasn't able. When I just couldn't face living with her anymore, I moved to my Dad. I had a seperate entry and kitchen and noone really cared for my emotional well-being. My father said I was old enough (I was fourteen).

T almost made me cry today, saying what he did was wrong. That I was too young. I love my father. I know he made mistakes, but it wasn't his fault. He didn't know better, did he? Or did he just not care, wanting to live an undisturbed life with his wife, leaving me to call the shots on my life... I just don't know anymore.
I have found that when I talk about people in therapy when a therapist usually makes a judgement about that person its because they took the "cue" from me, something in the words I used in talking about that person, something in my body language told my therapist what happened was not in my best interest. all kinds of cues.

I did ask one of my therapists one time how they could think such a thing about my parent. he pointed out all the different "cues" in me and the discussion that led him to his judgement about my parent.

from my point of view my parent was ok, not a problem and I was ok with how he/ she parented me. but the fact of the matter was that if I truly was ok number 1 I wouldn't be in therapy and 2 if I didn't feel something about how my parent parented me I wouldn't have brought it up in the conversation and my body language and words I used, the tone of voice and so on that I used wouldn't have told the therapist anything that would have led them to their conclusion about my parent.

it was an eye-opening experience.

I'm not saying it's your fault, just that its normal for people to make judgements about others and there are clues that lead up to why they make those judgements.

maybe you can talk with your treatment provider, ask them why they feel the way they do about your parent. find out what led the therapist to make that judgement.
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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 12:24 PM
  #3
I think it's hard to hear criticism of the people we love. A parent can love their child and still make mistakes, even big mistakes. You're the only one on this forum who knows anything about your father, but I think it can be true both that he cared about you and that you didn't get what you needed from him when you were a teenager in his care.
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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 01:15 PM
  #4
Your reaction is quite common I think, my sister got very upset when a T criticised our mother and she actually left therapy as a result. Years later she reflected that the reason it had hurt so much was because deep inside she knew the criticism was justified.

I also think it’s possible your dad did care but possibly didn’t know how to nurture, of course you are the one who knows best of all the situation.
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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 01:28 PM
  #5
I can empathize with you. My parents didn't do enough nurturing when I was young. They didn't take care of my emotional needs. Did they love me? Absolutely. Were they dealing with a lot of grown up stuff? Yes. Did they do the best they could with what they had at the time? I believe so. But that doesn't negate that they should have done better, should have prioritized better. Should-a, Would-a, Could-a.

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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 04:58 PM
  #6
My mom rented my an apartment when I was in the 5th grade and she stayed with her boyfriend. Was it good parenting? no. Was it in my best interests? no. Was it better than a lot of the other options? YES. Was she doing the best she could? YES.

We don't live in an ideal world, especially those of us that are regulars here, sometimes good enough has to be good enough... even if it wasn't enough. IMO it was less unhealthy than staying with your mom. He was, in theory, right there if anything happened. Was it good parenting? No. Are there worse things? unfortunately, yes.

IMO both you and your T are right. It wasn't good, it wasn't even OK... but it was better than... and sometimes that has to be enough... AND we have to acknowledge that we deserved better.

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Default Nov 15, 2022 at 11:47 PM
  #7
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IMO both you and your T are right. It wasn't good, it wasn't even OK... but it was better than... and sometimes that has to be enough... AND we have to acknowledge that we deserved better.
I think that sums up this thread nicely. I think I can live with that. I don't want to lose the one adult relationship that is loving nowadays.

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Default Nov 16, 2022 at 03:30 PM
  #8
My parents neglected me growing up. My mom was abusive, my dad just checked out. Now that I'm an adult, I can see why things happened the way they did. That doesn't make it okay. I now have a good relationship with both my parents. I had to split them into two different people. It's hard to hold both. Like my mom, she's only my mom by title, because she gave birth to me. Now she's more like a friend. Same with my dad, he's more of a friend than a parent. I've learned to lower my expectations of my family.

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Default Nov 17, 2022 at 01:44 PM
  #9
For people who grew up with abuse, neglect or simply who did not get their needs met, I think it is important to *name* this. Otherwise, the client's tendency is to normalise it or say 'Well, it wasn't that bad' etc etc.

There needs to be an external voice to validate what was once missing in a client's life and to emphasise that: you know what, no, it *wasn't* okay, it wasn't 'right'. Your T was this voice. This doesn't mean you shouldn't love your dad nor does it mean that you don't love your dad. But he was not there for you in the ways you needed.

I disagree when you say that it wasn't his fault & that he didn't know better. Why would he not know better? He was the adult and you were the child - you were his child. Yet, he made the decision he did. There being love does not let people's actions or behaviours off the hook.

He took you in but he wasn't there for you. It was not good enough. And it was not 'right'.
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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 05:23 AM
  #10
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For people who grew up with abuse, neglect or simply who did not get their needs met, I think it is important to *name* this. Otherwise, the client's tendency is to normalise it or say 'Well, it wasn't that bad' etc etc.

There needs to be an external voice to validate what was once missing in a client's life and to emphasise that: you know what, no, it *wasn't* okay, it wasn't 'right'. Your T was this voice. This doesn't mean you shouldn't love your dad nor does it mean that you don't love your dad. But he was not there for you in the ways you needed.

I disagree when you say that it wasn't his fault & that he didn't know better. Why would he not know better? He was the adult and you were the child - you were his child. Yet, he made the decision he did. There being love does not let people's actions or behaviours off the hook.

He took you in but he wasn't there for you. It was not good enough. And it was not 'right'.
I have a lot of resistance to what you are writing. I agree, but I don't want to agree, if that makes sense. I want to make elaborate excuses based on arbitrary assumptions for my father.

I also want to tell you that the mistakes I made were all mine. I chose badly when I decided to enter into a friendship with someone who was bad news. Could my father have stopped me if he had been around? Sure. Was that a bad thing? I guess, yes. Does that absolve me from the bad things I chose? No, it does not.

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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 07:57 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel View Post
My parents neglected me growing up. My mom was abusive, my dad just checked out. Now that I'm an adult, I can see why things happened the way they did. That doesn't make it okay. I now have a good relationship with both my parents. I had to split them into two different people. It's hard to hold both. Like my mom, she's only my mom by title, because she gave birth to me. Now she's more like a friend. Same with my dad, he's more of a friend than a parent. I've learned to lower my expectations of my family.
I'm sorry you went through this, they should have taken better care and of course not abused you... you describe splitting as a solution, but is it not actually also a symptom to work on? Sorry if I'm challanging you on this. I'm genuinly interested in your reply... I don't want to split them in two, that wouldn't be correct. They are both people capable of hurting me and loving me.

I don't know if I'm making too much sense here. My thoughts are going in circles.

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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 12:52 PM
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I'm sorry you went through this, they should have taken better care and of course not abused you... you describe splitting as a solution, but is it not actually also a symptom to work on? Sorry if I'm challanging you on this. I'm genuinly interested in your reply... I don't want to split them in two, that wouldn't be correct. They are both people capable of hurting me and loving me.

I don't know if I'm making too much sense here. My thoughts are going in circles.
Yes, you are right. It's a solution, coping mechanism, and symptom. I think the difference is that I know what I'm doing. It also has allowed me to have relationships with my parents.

I think splitting is similar to disassociation. Both are coping mechanisms that have pros and cons. Both L and J have told me that disassociation can be a beneficial coping skill to get through something.

I don't know. I guess everything has its pros and cons. I think being aware that you are using these or other coping skills is important.

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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 01:36 PM
  #13
Adults who neglect, abuse, or otherwise harm children do know better. The increased levels of awareness, reasoning, practical abilities,etc which are necessary for keeping a child safe are part of the categorical definition of being an adult.

I agree with Rive that part of the therapist's role can be to be the voice who calls it out - to represent the adult in your childhood who should have been there to help you and act as moral compass. Maybe the fact that you react against your therapist's opinion so deeply is information of itself and indicates the level of your hurt.

I am surprised by how many people in this thread are equating harmful behaviours with good enough behaviours. We don't extend the same generosity to adult-adult behaviours. If a male adult partner abuses his female adult partner, we don't consider him a good enough husband. We might understand why his partner does not feel able to leave, or feel other kinds of empathy for her, but we recognise his abuse as legally and socially unacceptable.

I guess people feel a need to maintain parental relationships for a whole range of reasons and can only do so by excusing, splitting, rationalising and other strategies. I know that a huge piece of growth for me was when I recognised that my mother did not do her best and failed me. She had difficult circumstances of her own, but this did not mitigate her cruelty and abuse. I have very low level contact and go years without seeing her, but really I don't want a relationship with her at all. However, I am not brave enough to totally cut her out. Maybe maintaining this contact is my own version of excusing her dreadful behaviours.
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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 02:01 PM
  #14
Exactly moo. My mother knew how to be a good enough parent to my brother, but explicitly chose to ignore me. She told me, when i was about 8, that she "had" to be nicer to him than she was to me because my dad used to abuse him. She actually told me to talk to my dad about him being nice to brother, and if he agreed, she would be nicer to me. My dad actually said no. That parents ALWAYS favor one child over others. So she told me sorry not sorry.

My ts did not judge my parents enough, imo.
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Default Nov 18, 2022 at 02:07 PM
  #15
I agree Comrademoomoo. As a teacher, if I were aware of the situation the OP described I would be required to report it as neglect as a mandated reporter.

While I understand the impulse to defend a parent as just good enough, neglect is neglect, and I too often see the results of that in my classroom. It's hard to come to terms with the idea that we were actually abused. It's hard to hear and accept because it challenges the view of our world we created in order to survive.
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Default Nov 19, 2022 at 02:19 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
Adults who neglect, abuse, or otherwise harm children do know better. The increased levels of awareness, reasoning, practical abilities,etc which are necessary for keeping a child safe are part of the categorical definition of being an adult.

I agree with Rive that part of the therapist's role can be to be the voice who calls it out - to represent the adult in your childhood who should have been there to help you and act as moral compass. Maybe the fact that you react against your therapist's opinion so deeply is information of itself and indicates the level of your hurt.

I am surprised by how many people in this thread are equating harmful behaviours with good enough behaviours. We don't extend the same generosity to adult-adult behaviours. If a male adult partner abuses his female adult partner, we don't consider him a good enough husband. We might understand why his partner does not feel able to leave, or feel other kinds of empathy for her, but we recognise his abuse as legally and socially unacceptable.

I guess people feel a need to maintain parental relationships for a whole range of reasons and can only do so by excusing, splitting, rationalising and other strategies. I know that a huge piece of growth for me was when I recognised that my mother did not do her best and failed me. She had difficult circumstances of her own, but this did not mitigate her cruelty and abuse. I have very low level contact and go years without seeing her, but really I don't want a relationship with her at all. However, I am not brave enough to totally cut her out. Maybe maintaining this contact is my own version of excusing her dreadful behaviours.
I understand the choice you made with your mother. I make that choice with my Mum most days, too.
And I guess you are right, I am in denial, and I acknowledge that I am trying to rationalize my father's behaviour. Still, while perhaps he was a crappy father, he has gotten softer over the years and I genuinly enjoy playing chess with him and having conversations with him and his wife.
I know he is like me, too. The worst trait I have, he has too (maladaptive fantasies), so in this regard, while I didn't tell him that I have this, he is the only person in my life I can relate to.
Granted, I don't have kids, because I am certain I would be a crappy parent, just like my parents were. Would I have recommended he should have made the same choice? Probably. But now I like him, and he likes me. Am I to give this up?

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Default Nov 19, 2022 at 02:22 AM
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Exactly moo. My mother knew how to be a good enough parent to my brother, but explicitly chose to ignore me. She told me, when i was about 8, that she "had" to be nicer to him than she was to me because my dad used to abuse him. She actually told me to talk to my dad about him being nice to brother, and if he agreed, she would be nicer to me. My dad actually said no. That parents ALWAYS favor one child over others. So she told me sorry not sorry.

My ts did not judge my parents enough, imo.
Wow, wtf...

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Default Nov 19, 2022 at 02:25 AM
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I agree Comrademoomoo. As a teacher, if I were aware of the situation the OP described I would be required to report it as neglect as a mandated reporter.

While I understand the impulse to defend a parent as just good enough, neglect is neglect, and I too often see the results of that in my classroom. It's hard to come to terms with the idea that we were actually abused. It's hard to hear and accept because it challenges the view of our world we created in order to survive.
I feel you are overreacting. Report him for neglect? It's such a harsh thing. I had a roof over my head, food in my stomache, shoes and clothes, good grades (though I was truent a lot)... would you have had the authorities take me away from that? Would that not have tramatized me?

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Default Nov 19, 2022 at 05:25 AM
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I understand the choice you made with your mother. I make that choice with my Mum most days, too.
And I guess you are right, I am in denial, and I acknowledge that I am trying to rationalize my father's behaviour. Still, while perhaps he was a crappy father, he has gotten softer over the years and I genuinly enjoy playing chess with him and having conversations with him and his wife.
I know he is like me, too. The worst trait I have, he has too (maladaptive fantasies), so in this regard, while I didn't tell him that I have this, he is the only person in my life I can relate to.
Granted, I don't have kids, because I am certain I would be a crappy parent, just like my parents were. Would I have recommended he should have made the same choice? Probably. But now I like him, and he likes me. Am I to give this up?
It's okay to go as slow as you need to with thinking about your past and trying to make sense of it. You mention maybe being in denial and there is nothing wrong with that, if it's even true. Your defenses are there to protect you. You don't have to make big sweeping conclusions that something was 100% not okay and thus you feel X and will have to do Y about it. Maybe for right now it's enough to ponder how you feel about something that didn't strike you as wrong at all at the time. That's enough of a shift to sit with.

Also, there is no reason to cut your father out of your life now if you don't want to. Even if you were to decide that his actions were completely unsatisfactory when you were a teenager, you're still allowed to have whatever relationship you would like with him as an adult. Plenty of parents struggle with certain ages of their children and excel with others. If you're happy with the relationship you have with him now, then there's no problem there.
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Default Nov 19, 2022 at 09:27 AM
  #20
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I feel you are overreacting. Report him for neglect? It's such a harsh thing. I had a roof over my head, food in my stomache, shoes and clothes, good grades (though I was truent a lot)... would you have had the authorities take me away from that? Would that not have tramatized me?
People in the us do over-react a lot - there are countless people who had their lives ruined or upended because misguided do gooders reported them for doing things like playing outside alone. So the over-reacting is just as harmful as under. I had a situation that every therapist I hired overreacted, too from my youth, and frankly, I was probably more traumatized by their insistence that it was much worse for me than it was then I was by the situation itself, and no amount of trying to explain it, or show it, or even bringing up a book where a researcher explored the same helped -I just stopped discussing it with them. Their insistence on how I was supposed to feel about it was the worst part of it.

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