Asking for "help" is not helping at all.

Hi there,

I just noticed something in your first post about trials and tribulations with therapy, meds, and professionals. You mentioned you figured you always had to "tough it out" through depression, and yet now that approach doesn't work. I was just going to add in my decades of trying the same, the only benefit I ever got from therapy was when I would get more vulnerable with the practitioner, not less. Keeping a tough exterior only buries our pain and suffering further, and that stuff is what you need the therapist to help you process with. Although, doing it on meds that only make one feel better means maybe you won't feel it when the changes do occur. You also mentioned in another post that you keep attending meetings and leaving with nothing. Maybe you are leaving with minute fractions of positive change, but you won't see it immediately, it won't hit you like a pill, because changes in therapy take a long long time. I do understand your sense of desperation and frustration. That seems to be the unfortunate byproduct of going through any system of healthcare. However, keep at it, and please don't give up on yourself, because you deserve genuine happiness or at least minimal depression in this life.

Luv,

Marilyn

That is the attitude I should take.

Oh that’s even better. I was just sharing that if I pay, I’ll go. If I don’t pay ahead, I won’t go. But free is always the best. I am glad they have those

I've never understood this concept of "processing." It seems to be an attempt to render into mechanical terms what does not really fit that metaphor. I was in a partial hospitalization program that claimed "we give you tools." They want this to sound like an engineering problem.

Process what? I'm alone too much. There is nothing complicated about that. I don't need to further "process" that. I know what my problem is and what it always has been. I know I have deeply ingrained bad habits. You can't talk away stuff like that. There is no step by step procedure whereby you transform the difficulties I have into something easier to deal with. This "processing" is a myth, IMHO. There is no such methodology.

A mill can "process" wheat into flour. A city sanitation system can "process" sewage into clean water. As a species, we've had such stunning success in developing technology to grapple with our physical environment. We have fancied the notion that we can technologically solve all human problems. So mental health professionals like to talk about equipping clients with "tools" and getting them to undertake the "processing" of their experiences, like this all boils down to some mechanical enterprise, to which you just need to apply the right technology.

I am very open with counselors. I lay my soul bare to them because I do have the strength to face the realities of my life. I'm not hiding some secret that some therapist needs to dig up. There is no mystery to be solved. It is simply false that what is needed is a closer analysis of things. I haven't met a counselor who analyses my situation any better than I do myself. The solution to every problem is not always more analysis. That is a conceit we harbor . . . that our problems will yield to the application of "reason." CBT and DBT are all about how to logic away your problems. It just doesn't always work.

Back in the 18th century, mankind decided to deify "reason." It's understandable when you consider the stupendous achievements that science was having and how the industrial revolution allowed the size of the human population to explode. We got deluded into thinking that all our troubles can be engineered away. Nowadays persons doing the most menial of jobs are called "technicians." That's suposed to elevate their dignity. Being in possession of technical expertise is what commands respect. I'm not knocking expertise, but therapists haven't really developed a technology of dealing with human, psychological pain. But we kind of assume they have. Seeing a therapist is said to be about "working through" problems. Who doesn't respect work? The trouble is that, often, talking is just talking. It may constitute work, but it often doesn't.

If my issues could be reasoned away, I'ld have mastered them long ago. I know how to reason. What I need is more courage to do what I'm fearful of. You can't reason someone into being braver. The best a therapist can do is pat me on the back when I manage to make a good move that was hard for me to do. The actual work cannot be done in a therapist's office. All I can do in that office is report what I succeeded at doing or what I failed at. I'm hoping that seeing a caring therapist may give me a little more incentive to want to have something commendable to report.

Processing is more about finding out why you're doing what you're doing. Why are you isolating? And it's not because of depression (unless you believe it to be chemical imbalance then you'd need medication). Does that make sense? That it's the isolation causing the depression. I'm assuming this because you say you think the depression will get better if you socialized more. So processing why you're isolating would be the key to therapy. Sure it's nice to have support from someone like a therapist, but that's not the point of therapy. You can socialize (paid or free) with many other people in life (cashiers, hairdressers, masseuses, etc.) without much effort.

I had the same idea. During the last 3 years, I paid membership fees to use a private, well-equipped gym. My neighbor went there and encouraged me to join her. After paying hundreds of dollars, I didn't go more than a couple of times. Last year, I was getting closer to this neighbor, whom I really admired. I was starting to see her as a friend and a good role model. Talking with her was helping me. Then, around Christmas, she suddenly just died. That was a very disapointing loss, given how seldom I manage to connect with others. She had gotten to know me very well. That had taken years to happen.

With how long it takes me to get to know anyone, I'm just not going to live long enough to build up much of a support network. So I have to make do with what connections I can manage to establish. Two years ago, I withdrew from a twenty year friendship. She was a person whose idea of a friend was someone she could exploit. I put up with it so long because I figured any friend was better than no friend. That's kind of untrue. She used me a lot. Eventually, she just got too out of line. I got to where I had just had enough. Still, I have a sense of great loss over how that went. It would have been better to have set some boundaries and maintained the connection. I shouldn't need to completely exit a relationship to prevent someone taking unfair advantage of me. It went off the rails because I was underskilled, socially, in how to handle a person like her. I learned a big lesson. I would do better with that kind of challenge in the future. I could relate that to other past experiences, where I took flight, rather than stay in an uncomfortable situation and see if I could make it better. Sometimes, you just have to stand your ground. I have sometimes done that. I can look back and see lots of things I handled well. I have had successes in life. Also, I've had a lot of failures. Everyone has wins and losses. You just have to keep doing stuff. Eventually, you rack up more successes that are confidence building. It seems to me that I just haven't ventured forth enough to rack up enough experience in the art of living to get good at it.

What I just figured out, as I'm writing this, is that I have to not have my heart set on success. I have to tackle more opportunities to try things, knowing that there will be failures. I have to decide that having failures is not so awful. Failure is not something to be avoided at all cost, which I tend to do. "He who makes no mistakes does nothing." I spend way too much time doing nothing because I'm afraid of making a mistake. Clearly, that approach to life is not working for me.

I already know why . . . as good as I'm ever going to know why. There is no mystery here. I know that I'm depressed due to lack of social connection. I hang back from social situations out of fear and lack of interest. That started in grammar school. No one at school bullied me. I never got abused. I have no trauma to report. There is not a he|| of a lot to process. I had loving parents.

I don't believe there's anything chemically wrong with my brain. Humans are social animals. Deprived of social connection long enough, anyone will become depressed. Prisons long ago discovered that solitary confinement was found to be as intimidating a penalty as being scourged. Connectedness to other humans is that important.

I agree with you 100%. I am not socially isolated because I am depressed. It's the other way around. Maintaining an inordinate distance from others is something I've done since childhood. I could get into a deep analysis of what may have contributed to my being horribly over-sensitive to rejection. That's really not a fruitful line of thought. What I learned going down that path is that it really doesn't matter all that much. Now is now. Professionals have tried to trace my mindset to some horrible maltreatment or trauma I may have been subjected to, and they fail to discover anything.

Monday, my therapist said, "Let's look at your childhood." I thought, "Here we go again." Well, she doesn't know me, so she does need to get a sense of my past. When I see therapists, they spend a long time trying to figure out what I already figured out years ago. If figuring stuff out were the answer, I'ld be doing great. I don't deliberately isolate myself. I simply fail to socialize, so I end up alone. I don't intentionally engage in the act of isolating. I just end up that way. That's simply what happens when you keep choosing solitary pursuits.

So why does a person, early in life, choose solitary activities? There already exists theories about that, and I'm familiar with them. I've had years and years to apply that kind of analysis to my childhood. Were there some dysfunctional family dynamics that impacted me? Sure. I can trace certain personality pathology back through generations to one of my great-grandfathers who was quite mean to my grandmother. I even find it very interesting to think about stuff like that. But you know what? You can ponder that stuff till the cows come home, and it won't change a damπ thing. It's simply not true that, if you understand why you behave a certain way, then that will be the key to change. Life has taught me that, often, it's not. It suits us to believe that, but it's just not true.

Doctors used to believe that, if an alcoholic got psychoanalyzed as to what led to the drinking, that would be the key to achieving sobriety. That approach was a miserable failure. AA came along and turned that thinking upside down. Alcoholics in recovery have told me that analyzing their psyches was of very limited value. For whatever reason, they got habituated to a means of relieving stress that was destroying them. They needed to get habituated to an alternative, healthier aproach to living. The suport of the AA fellowship has helped many people do that.

I won't gain much by further analyzing how I got so habituated to making the choices that lead to a "loner" lifestyle. Not that it isn't interesting to think about. But it's not fruitful. I already spend way, way too much time thinking.

I go shopping and get my haircut now and then. I interact with cashiers and hairdressers just fine. I have no trouble walking into a store or a salon and getting done what I need to do. I exchange appropriate pleasantries with the people I encounter there. But opening the door of the fitness center on Monday made me a nervous wreck. The thought of going back there to attend their yoga class has me almost sick to my stomach when I think about it. I just have to make myself go. I have to take the chance that it might not prove rewarding. And it might not. But, if I try enough things, I'm bound to find something better than staying alone in my apartment, surfing the Internet. I'm getting sick to death of what I'm currently doing.

I will post here when I manage to do something that I have to push myself into doing. Then I want everyone to cheer for me. That's probably the best way I can be "supported." My little victories might be of no great interest to anyone, but it might be good for me to keep a record to track whether I'm doing what I need to be doing. I'm pretty confident that I already know what I need to do. But that still leaves a mountain for me to climb.

I for one am very pleased to hear about your little victories, I’m sure others feel similarly.

Personally I’ve always found little victories can mean a lot to me, something to celebrate and build upon.

Thank you. It is so hard to be patient, when my life feels so unrewarding. I need to have more patience. At times, I just want to give up. But small steps in the right direction can lay the groundwork for bigger, longer term success. Three years ago, I told myself to at least accomplish one thing a day, no matter how small. In a month, that's 30 things. I was doing that during 2020 and 2021. It was working for me. Then in late '22, I lost my way. There were some hurts that diminished my sense of hope. By 2024, that snowballed into complete despair. Maybe, by doing some positive things, I can pick up momentum eventually. Maybe cultivating some better habits will snowball in a good direction. It's so nice that there are understanding people willing to offer encouragement. That's why I come here to MSF.

Do you have anyone you trust? I know you believe processing is a myth, but how about trust? Is that something you get to have in your life?

I know its tough to foster trust with a professional, but interpersonal trust in reality is rare, I find. Do you trust anyone that doesn't make you feel like you're just going through the motions? Sorry if my post seemed presumptuous.

Rose you said it takes you awhile to make connections with people. I think just the act of getting out of the house to another human will help. Honestly, you don't have to bare your soul, just try connecting. One hour a week is pretty small in the course of a week. But small steps at building a relationship is beneficial even if you just talk about the weather or the Dodgers.

No. There really isn't anyone. I'm pretty much on my own.

I did have my appointment with a psychologist yesterday. He seemed caring and understanding. Maybe this will help. I also now have a therapist. I'll try to get what I can out of these appointments. It can't hurt to have someone to talk to.

I've thought of talking to family, but I feel like they would look down on me.

Thank you for your posts. I think you are very genuine in wanting to be helpful.

These are words of wisdom. Thank you. I will remind myself of what you wrote above, when I get thoughts of not following thru with seeing these professionals.

As you say, any opportunity I have to engage with others - about anything - is something that makes my world less empty that day. Seeing the psychologist yesterday was a positive experience.

Hi Rose
I know you briefly mentioned CBT/DBT in terms of "how to logic away your problems". But true CBT - working with someone who gives you insight on how your thoughts, beliefs and attitudes affect your feelings and actions, and who will help you learn coping skills which will hopefully help you change the way you think and behave - maybe a more practical-based therapy where you have homework and have to put into practice what you are learning, could be a way forward?

At least it would be of shorter duration than just conventional talk therapy - which as you have already acknowledged, doesn't help because you know what the problems are, you know what you should do about them, you just don't feel able to make the effort.

Just a thought.

PS: if you can afford to have the professional cleaning person back again, don't feel embarrassed or ashamed - they are providing a service which you are paying them for. Looking after ourselves and our environment can be a herculean task when feeling so low. You've already said that having a tidy and clean living space makes you feel better, maybe that could be the first step, taken in conjunction with the others.
East

I am seeing a therapist now and a psychologist. It is helping me to talk with them. Thank you for understanding about my challenge with the housework. I did ask the professional cleaner to schedule a visit. Meanwhile, I got a lot done Sunday and a bit more Monday. I feel more hopeful now.

The improvement collapsed today. All I want to do is lie down.

The psychologist I went to was a pretty impressive guy. He's got a big deal job in a large state university run healthcare system. I think he also teaches at the university. He sounds very well educated and very smart. I'm surprised someone of his stature is even available to see someone like me. In my experience, there can be wide variability in the competency of psychologists. IMO, higher education in America has been corrupted by money, in that degrees are more or less sold. But this guy was the real deal.

He started off by telling me that he would be seeing me on a short term basis. This sounded reasonable and appropriate. I was looking for some oversight in working a practical program to get into a more healthy daily routine and find ways to become involved with others in my community. I was not looking to explore my childhood. I am not a survivor of abuse. I don't have a history of horrible experiences that I need help "processing." I expected the counseling to be focused on the here-and-now in a very practical way.

That initial conversation was very encouraging. I felt like he really "got" my situation. I felt that I was no longer totally alone, dealing with my problem. My spirits improved greatly. We came up with a concrete plan.

Well, that was a few weeks ago. Yesterday my improved state of mind collapsed. I fear he's going to decide that I'm not trying hard enough. Then he's going to want to terminate seeing me as someone who is a waste of his time. My second appointment comes up this month. I already imagine that he's not going to have any patience with me making slow progress.

I also got referrals to two therapists, which the psychologist doesn't know about. I was seeing each of those counselors on a weekly basis. I figured I'ld go to both, until I could decide which one to stick with. They are two nice ladies, but seeing either of them doesn't seem helpful. They are clinical counselors with master's degrees. They seem to believe that their role is to offer me affirmations.

So these counselors basically just offer me pats on the head. They seem to want to agree with me on everything. When I admit that I'm not doing enough that I need to do, they just want to praise me for the slightest effort that I've made. I feel like they're half asleep during our sessions.

I guess there's a belief among therapists that clients need unconditional acceptance and kindness to counter-balance harsh treatment they may have received growing up or in their adult relationships. I totally believe in them offering unconditional acceptance. But I don't get anything out of them nodding sympathetically and showering me with kindliness and being relentlessly nice. Neither of them says much at all. They listen and nod. I keep talking because, when I stop, we just sit there staring at one another. I glance at my wrist watch to see how much time is left. I can't wait to get out of there. The last time I went to one of them, we wound up the session early, after I told the therapist that I had run out of stuff to say.

It was completely different with the psychologist. I've only had one meeting with him. Yet, he figured out a lot right away . . . more than I believe those counselors would figure out in six months. He's very nice, but I feel like he understands that I'm approaching life in a way that isn't working. So I don't need affirmations and praise. I have a lot of very bad habits. I need help believing that change is possible, and I need to work on strategies to accomplish change. That requires analysis, criticism of what's not working and planning to implement better behaviors. I've thought that I need someone to hold my "feet to the fire." The psychologist calls it "accountability." I think he nailed it. But I don't think a half dozen apointments will get me there. I'm starting to worry that he will not stick with me long enough. I need to know that someone is committed to going a certain distance with me . . . committed to helping me at least part way along this road, until a certain amount of change gets effectuated. I'm not sure he has that quantity of time to spare. So I'm back to feeling that I'm really all alone, or will be rather soon.

This post has gotten lengthier than I intended. It helped me a bit to write it. Today was all about me slipping backward. I had a weepy spell. I'm back depressed. Maybe I'm doomed. Maybe the encouragement I felt was just wishful thinking.

The psychologist said I could email him, if I was doing poorly with sticking to our plan. I'm afraid that would just make him sick of me sooner.

You’ll bounce back!

I’d email him today and see what he has to say. It can’t make it worse. It might make it better. I really doubt he’d be sick of you because you didn’t fix everything after seeing him one time.

@Rose76 - It sounds as though you already know what will or won't work in regard to a professional helping you, which is a good starting point to go into any kind of therapy with. Even though the Psychologist said this was short-term, it might be worth clarifying with him if that is flexible, ie if you needed more help/more time, would that be possible?

I doubt very much that he would terminate seeing you because you weren't trying hard enough, lack of motivation is partly what has driven you to seek help in the first place; he wouldn't be doing his part if he gave up at the first hurdle or showed impatience at lack of progress...
Maybe tell him what you have written here, explain that your improved state of mind just collapsed. Maybe you already know why this is, but if not, explore that with him.

With regards to the counsellors, it may be that they're treading lightly until they get to know you better, however, receiving unconditional positive regard is all very well, but fairly useless without a bit of counter-challenging. If you decide to stick with either of them, perhaps this is something you could raise, that you need more than empty platitudes and affirmations.

Perhaps stick with just the Psychologist for the time being, keep the counselling in reserve for later if you still feel in need of support...?

Just a few things that came to mind as I was reading your post.

@East17 - thanks. Those are good points and food for thought. I probably should clarify with these professionals about what to expect and not assume that I know what they're thinking.