Couch 248: Curiouser and Curiouser

This also reminds me of my own issue of trying to be small. For me, if I'm small enough, maybe then they'd accept me. I personally do this ALL the time.

Your smaller fish reminded me of that. Does it feel like If it's just small enough, maybe then he'll let it/me stay? I know you're trying so hard to work things out. AND I wish/hope there are times where you can know that you are enough exactly the way you are.

Yes, exactly. I even said something about something the size of a grain of rice. It feels like if he won't even accept something tiny from me, it's about me, not the item.

Oh, and I didn't share this part. He actually said, "Do you think it's appropriate to ask someone to put something of yours in their space?" The use of "appropriate" really bothered me. I said, "Well, if I didn't think it was appropriate, I wouldn't have asked." I eventually asked if he thought it was appropriate, and I'm not sure he answered? Like, he seemed fine with it before and recognized it as a "gift for the office" when I initially gave it to him a year and a half ago (as opposed to something for him to take home).

And thanks for this, Scarlet: "AND I wish/hope there are times where you can know that you are enough exactly the way you are."

I think I get the wanting to have some part of you there. I don’t really feel that myself, with any place, but I feel that way about wanting to have some part of my mother with me always. (It’s the second anniversary of her death today.)



And reading your posts, I don’t know it’s so much that you want something of you in that space as that you want Dr T to want something of you in that space. For you to matter to him like my mother mattered to me.

Hugs to you, @@.


I think you're exactly right. And part of what I said about the fish in one of the discussions is that I want him to want to take it with him, to find a spot for it. To think, "this matters to LT, so I'll take it, because she matters to me." (I don't think I phrased it quite like that.) But yes, I think even more than that is wishing he would want it there because he likes having me in his office, wants a part of me there that reminds him of me. So that's likely part of why this is so painful.

He wants to decorate his office as he sees fit, and that may not include something that represents me. I don't know that I can bring this up to him, as his response may just make it very clear how little I truly mean to him. It may simply be that he doesn't assign the same value to objects that I (and apparently you, and your mother) do. He may just not be sentimental in that way, so doesn't get the meaning. Or maybe other objects in there have lots of meaning for him (due to their origin), but mine doesn't.

It seems like the issue with the fish has brought up deeper feelings of insecurity and doubt in your relationship with Dr. T. To me it’s just about wanting to be a part of his space and to be thought of even if you weren’t there.

Your efforts to assert yourself and express your needs are important steps.

The robotic reassurance may reflect Dr. T's own discomfort with emotional expression or a defensive response to feeling challenged.

Could you explore this with R? It's also important to consider your own boundaries and needs in the therapeutic relationship.

Yes, I think it's bringing up questions of who I am to him (I mean, a client, of course) and the realities of the relationship.

And he does tend to react poorly to being challenged. Right now, I want things like reassurance about the new space, and he seems to be giving me the opposite. It's where my anxious attachment interacts poorly with what I can only assume is his avoidant attachment. The push-pull thing. i push for more support, reassurance, warmth, etc., he pulls further back. (I've brought this dynamic up in the past, and of course he denies pulling back or being more boundaried.)

Unsure on discussing with R more. Dr. T said it would be fine to do one or two sessions with her (so I could theoretically do one more), but more than that, we'd need to have a bigger discussion about it. The one with her Monday helped, I thought, but I still feel in despair with Dr. T and can't really comfort myself--like she was trying to get me to visualize comforting the younger version of myself.

I want to tell Dr. T to talk to me about the move and reassure me like I'm 8 or 12 (or even a teenager, as he works with those in his practice), but I know he doesn't work that way and he'd probably find it silly and say "You're not 8, you're 47." I'm not good at doing it for myself either.

Maybe I need to look for someone else to see for a bit--or longer--I don't know. Like someone who doesn't know him well. Or consider taking a break from therapy and seeing how things go.

Yuck...

That's a horrible question in that context.

A gift from a client to a therapist isn't given with the expectation that it will definitely be put on display...but to insinuate that you're 'pushing it' in some way is really weird.

I wouldn't give something to a friend and immediately ask where they were going to put it...I'd want to enjoy the moment of noticing it around their place.

'There's that thing!' and the joy that comes with seeing it in its rightful place.

I honestly can't fathom how a three inch fish has become a bone of contention, and yet I really don't think it's about you, LT.

I'll keep the rest of my mumblings to myself, but I hope he sees sense here.

Thanks, Lost. Just realized I didn't reply to this. Yeah, there seems the implication that it might not be appropriate.


I also question how it's become this big conflict. I was also thinking of how I gave it to honor our 5 years of work together. It wasn't intended to just be about *me*, but the work. Also, the actual live Fish (capitalized because that was her name) that once lived in his office.

And in general, I don't tend to be controlling about gifts. It feels nice when my H wears a shirt I gave him, especially a T-shirt that I thought he'd find to be funny. I make sure to wear things he gave me for the same reason. But I wouldn't interrogate him about why he wasn't wearing someting I gave him. (I might say, if it was soon after, "If you didn't like it or it didn't fit well, I can return it-it's all good.") I gave my mom a notepad that I figured she could use in their beach condo, and it felt nice to see that she was using it. But if it hadn't been there, I wouldn't have been like, "hey, where's that notepad I gave you?"

This just stirs up something different in me for whatever reason.

The fish itself isn't important, but what it represents is important. Similarly, the decision itself of whether he keeps it or whether you take it back isn't important, but your process around this is important. So I think you are right, objects might not hold the same significance for him as for you (and of course that is fine), but what should be significant to him is your process. He should be able to pay attention to what is happening for you and help you explore what is happening - which might not even involve reassurance. However, hopefully it would involve him remaining congruent whilst also caring about your responses, meanings, experiences, feelings, associations, fears, and all of the goings on in your process. This seems like relational work and maybe that's why he isn't serving you or the work very effectively.

And just to say about the idea of you needing to make yourself small to be acceptable, whilst I can certainly read that in some of what you say (not wanting to repeatedly discuss it, giving a small object etc), I also see how big you are being. You are taking how you feel seriously and you know that this matters. You want to talk about it here, you are driven to speak to him about it, you are having big feelings about it. I think this is part of your agency and good for you for taking up space even at his inconvenience and your discomfort.

Why would you give your T an ultimatum? Do this one thing or else? Don't the past x years mean anything? I don't get it. Has he offered you an ultimatum? If he did, what would it be? YKWIM.

I think it's difficult to identify what is in the territory of an ultimatum and what is confirmation of incompatibility. X years don't always mean much if over that time you have been suppressing your needs or ignoring your gut.

This is a good point. Maybe some of this is my suppressing needs for years to appease him and stay on his good side. And it's coming to a head with the fish, so to speak. Like a cresting wave in the ocean, I suppose.

Something that struck me was looking at an old email of his (trying to find what he'd said about a particular thing--unrelated to the fish), where he said the reason he doesn't disclose things like where he goes on vacation and other topics is "I don't want clients to feel they have to take care of me." Like to ask him about his vacation and such.

And I kind of laughed at that, because I *do* very much feel I need to take care of his emotions at times. Like "Don't irritate Dr. T!" (when he's fairly easily irritated). "Don't make him uncomfortable by talking about love feelings!" "Don't say or do anything that will make him feel controlled, even if that's not the intention at all!"

So I feel I sometimes put his needs above my own. Which, of course, is how it is in outside life, like obviously I need to prioritize D's needs, H's needs, etc. at times over mine. Same with friendships. But it doesn't seem like I should have to take care of my therapist's emotions--at least not to this level. I sort of referenced the taking care of his emotions during yesterday's session, but in a side comment way (he said, "I can manage my own emotions").

Anyway...

I'm not giving him an ultimatum though? I'm saying how it's painful that he might not take it with him. And might not accept something else. I'm not saying, "Put something of mine in your office or I'll terminate."

But thats exactly what youve said. Here, if not yet there. Your not talking about the hurt of his rejection, your talking about losing the power
struggle. But by making it about the power struggle, you can pretend you are not fearful of his rejection, you pretend it doesnt exist, you pretend he loves you, but in reality you only win the power struggle, not his love.

Instead of playing "he loves me, he loves me not", you do something unspeakable to that poor daisy.

Stopdog, we will make a working therapist out of you yet.

And comrademoomoo, good post, both of you.

LT - I think we are just trying to get you to see the subtle differences in what is going, just different slices of it, different perspectives.

ETA - "The collaboration part". Yes! That is what you are disallowing when you give an ultimatum. You try to refuse him space in his own space. He cannot collaborate with you if you are standing in his space.

Realized I didn't respond to this insight. He seems to go back and forth between exploring it, like, "what we need to figure out is why this is so important to you" and asserting that it's his space to decorate. Like, examining, then asserting control. I wish we could just stay in the examining space for longer.

And thanks for the comment on how big I am being. I do think it's important and a sign of growth that I'm asserting myself with him (and here), even if it might be bothering him a bit.

This all came about because I was trying to be proactive about the office move and figure out ways to make it easier, both saying good-bye to the old office and welcoming the new one. I didn't intend to get into the whole thing with the fish--I just suggested, "Hey, maybe one way I could feel more comfortable in the new place would be if you would let me be the one to put the fish in its spot or be there when you do it (like he could have had it on his desk when I got there). Which is when he said, "I don't know that I'll have room for everything." I'd just assumed he'd be taking it. So some of my reaction is from being surprised by this, though I suppose better now than the first day in the new office, after I glance around and don't see it.

Good point, Comrade.

The therapeutic relationship is hardly the space where one should make oneself smaller to acquiesce to the therapist's process.

This is true. But there’s really only one sure solution: find a therapist you don’t feel you have to be small with.

Actually, beyond natural inclination, it may depend on the person you’re connected to, I think. For instance, I have very few objects that belonged to my father. With him, pictures and memories suffice. It’s not that I loved him less, it’s just somehow I don’t need the object. And maybe Dr T is similar with you, i.e., he doesn’t need the object.

I mean, I like to think that I can swim the channel or write a great a novel or enjoy a glass of wine without drinking a bottle or relax in other people's company. Doesn't mean that translates into life.

I don't think this is lining up. I completely understand the guy not wanting other people's stuff in his office. I agree with him on that. Even people I love don't get to decorate my house.
If you want to talk about the pain of the loss of the fish -then why not do that rather than focusing on getting the therapist to do an act? It does seem like you try to control him - I don't see it as taking care of his emotions. I do think of it as child like attempts at getting to be one way or the other with you (which would make sense if there is some paternal transference). I don't think, from what I have read, the therapist is supposed to satisfy every want a client has.

To me it seems there is a lot of time/energy spent planning on how to get specific things out of him -Like with the having the appointment even though you were sick because you wanted some emotion from him because you were sick (him being nicer because you were not well thing).