Asking for empathy from T

Hi all,

Even though I'm now back to doing therapy in person, the fallout from working virtually over the summer continues.

When I had my first session back face to face on WSPD, I asked R what her recollection was regarding where we left off in July.

'I know you didn't want to talk about Steve stuff over the break...so I guess we're heading back into that space?'



We had one session to talk about the new 'Steve stuff' before we moved online.

I explained the facts at the time, but R has yet to acknowledge the impact of this information.

I would appreciate hearing her say something to the effect of 'I'm sorry you now know this.' or anything that indicates a level of understanding...but having to ask for it feels weird, when it has always been a given in our relationship.

I'm having extreme difficulty with the sense that she's forgotten this destabilising information.

This hurts - please bear this tenderness in mind in your responses.

Many thanks,

Lost

Hhhhm, I wonder if she's having any counter transference? Seems odd that normally she's in tune with you....

Thanks TR,

This is my first time encountering that concept.
I've looked it up, but I still don't quite follow.

Any chance you could elaborate?

Lost

The feelings you're experiencing is too close to something she's experienced.... I'm probably wrong but wonder why she's struggling to understand on this issue

Thanks, TR.

Appreciate you breaking it down that much.
Waiting for my mental capacity to come back after a heavy anniversary this weekend.

Lost

Counter transference can also show as her responses to your transference towards her. For example, if you want empathy from her (when at core this desire for attunement is a developmental need hence transferential and not really about her), she might pull back from your call to her. She might find your transferential feelings uncomfortable if your need triggers something uncomfortable in her. This could be outside of her awareness, but you would hope she would have sufficient insight to process this in supervision/therapy as counter transferential responses are important information for therapists. I am not saying I think this is happening, just giving another example of ct.

Am I right in remembering her modality is person centred? If so, empathy is a core condition so I wouldn't imagine she struggles with the concept. Maybe she just forgot the information?

I wouldn't ask for empathy because it feels forced and if it isn't freely given, I am not sure what worth there is in it. I would certainly speak about how it feels to not receive empathy or to be overlooked. These issues are always about more than what's happening in the therapy interaction.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.

I've had to ask for empathy from my T before, where it just seemed like an obvious, easy place to give empathy and he just...didn't. (I started to type up a detailed account of one example--when my D had Covid just before a family vacation a couple years ago--but realized that probably wouldn't be very helpful to you.) I've actually said things like, "I could really just use some empathy here." Or "I'm really just looking for support."

If you haven't directly said things like that to her, I would. I know it can be difficult. But I think it's better ultimately than holding it in and not getting the support you need and deserve. I'd basically tell her what you said here. If it's too difficult to say out loud, maybe write or type it, then hand it to her at the start of session (or email, but I know you've had some issues there): "I explained the facts at the time, but R has yet to acknowledge the impact of this information.

I would appreciate hearing her say something to the effect of 'I'm sorry you now know this.' or anything that indicates a level of understanding...but having to ask for it feels weird, when it has always been a given in our relationship.

I'm having extreme difficulty with the sense that she's forgotten this destabilising information."

I hope she can give you support and empathy.

Thanks, Comrade.



You are correct in that she is a person-centred therapist.
I appreciate your point about empathy feeling forced.

I am in considerable pain as a result of this new understanding, and her response thus far would suggest that she thinks it's no more than business as usual.

Thanks, LT.

I remember how much that hurt you.
I'm feeling bewildered and forgotten, which is something I have never experienced from her.

It may seem as though I need her to be calm in the face of what I am sharing, but if anything I need to borrow her strength to help me face what I am finally on the edge of allowing myself to feel.

Lost

I know I just basically gave opposite advice to this in terms of asking directly for empathy. But I wanted to say that I very much identify with the push-pull dynamic and agree that it potentially could be happening here. Dr. T has recently said that he realizes that happens in our work together at times. (I was already aware of the pattern, but I'm not sure he'd really acknowledged it--at least, not to me.)

It can often be subconscious, so a T may not realize they're even doing it. Could be worth thinking about whether anything similar has happened with you and R in the past, Lost. Or maybe it's unique to this one situation.

Thanks, LT.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'push-pull dynamic'.
I feel let down by her as I had no option but to begin processing this new information with others if I wanted to do so semi-safely.

Lost

So, I'm not saying this applies to you and R. But in my case, the push-pull dynamic with Dr. T plays out like this: I'm going through a difficult time either in my outside life or the therapeutic relationship. I push Dr. T to provide me with more support, more empathy, more connection. And he doesn't want to give that for whatever reason, so he pulls back and gives me less than he even normally would.

I don't think it's conscious on his part. I certainly hope he isn't thinking "LT wants more support right now, but I'm not going to give it to her--haha. It's likely about one or more of the following: countertransference, his own avoidant attachment stuff, his thinking certain things are appropriate for therapy and other things not (like my sending an email to let him know H's surgery went well), etc. I do wonder, if it could remind him of a dynamic in his own life, maybe with his wife, mother, or sister (seems likely a female figure), in which case it could be more of an enactment, if I'm understanding the meaning of those correctly.

Hope that helps explain it more--basically one person pushing for more, the other person pulling back in response.

Thanks, LT.

That makes sense.
This is the first time I feel as though I can't assume understanding because we didn't have the chance to talk about the feelings that came up for me around this.

I simply didn't know what they were, so I have had to figure that out with other support people, and I don't know where to begin in catching R up.

Her memory is usually very good, and for this to be the thing that she has seemingly forgotten...the biggest thing...

Well, it sucks.

Lost

I understand not wanting to ask for empathy because it could feel forced. That's why I hate asking for things like empathy or love. I also understand the need for empathy and that it might require asking for it. Sometimes people just don't understand how they are being perceived or don't understand what we are needing.

I don't know what is playing out for you right now. I do think you might be at an impasse. My guess is the only way you're going to be able to move forward is by discussing all of this: her memory, her lack of empathy, maybe even how her vacation/virtual is still affecting you (e.g. still needing more support).

I wonder if it feels frustrating that your issues with her are taking over precious time you need to be able to process the things about your friend? That's how I'm feeling with L right now. Like "Hey, it's MY time!". It's like she's not on the same page as you.

I would ask for empathy. I have to do it directly sometimes. I even do it with H. I wish they could read my mind. I wish it would just come naturally. But sometimes they just need to be reminded.

Thanks, Scarlet.

I agree with you - an honest conversation is needed, but there is also a lot of frustration that I haven't been able to talk about the things I need to discuss.

I haven't been able to focus on settling back into the relationship because I've been ping-ponging around September trigger dates whilst trying to figure out what it would actually take for me to feel safe with her again...and then we need to have a conversation about the material that I had to shelve for emotional safety reasons.

I feel guilty for needing more support, but right now...it seems like she can't be the support that I need her to be.

When I feel like she's there for me, she's there for me...but the last three in person sessions felt like a rush towards the summer holidays and I haven't had a chance to catch my breath because I've been trying to figure out how to do all of this...stuff.

Maybe her lack of empathy is only one aspect of your stuckness. It sounds like there are multiple things you would like to discuss and you aren't sure where to start, how to make the time, what's most pressing, and so on. I can imagine that trying to sort through all this material feels daunting - subtract the empathy you are used to and the ground becomes somewhat fragile.

I am aware that I am often at odds with the gentle crowd here, but I think there is therapeutic work in the experience of not receiving empathy. I strongly believe that therapy isn't just about soothing and getting our needs met. It's also about being able to tolerate not having our needs met (even if we ask). What if she doesn't feel empathetic? What if it is just business as usual as far as she is concerned? (I am not saying I believe this to be the case). That of course is really painful, but it is also potentially some growth. Beyond the common human desire to be understood, what is it about empathy (or the lack of) which makes it a crucial matter for you? These are rhetorical questions of course. For example, for me, lack of empathy would recall my mother's cruelty. Equally, my mother's cruelty means I am very likely to not recognise empathy when it is offered. Anyway, I am rambling a bit now, but these painful experiences are fertile ones and we miss a lot if we simply seek the reassurance of empathy, care, etc.

Hi Comrade,

Thank you for your response.

I feel as though she's missed a lot whilst we've been working online.

That is a decision I made for the sake of my emotional safety.
I spent part of every session crying when we worked online during the pandemic, without anything significant having gone wrong.

I could not face having to talk about this with connectivity rather than connection.
Yes, I would have created new rivers, but who does that benefit?

Definitely not me.

If therapy is not a place where someone can hope to be met in the acuteness of their grief, then what is?

This latest facet of my experience is too big to bring into a Teams window, and now I am just hoping for some indication that she really understands how difficult this new element is.

Take care,

Lost

Oh of course you would hope that your grief could be met with empathy, that's why you are there after all, plus it's something that she has been able to provide you with in the past. However, given that your experience recently has been that she hasn't been attuned, what better place than therapy to explore the pain of that? I am not trying to agitate you, this is me trying to be supportive!

Thanks Comrade,

I am sorry that my frustration got the better of me in that moment.
I'm struggling to figure out what I need right now, and my usual coping strategies/escape hatches aren't doing it.

Asking for what I need has always been a struggle, but there's an urgency now.

Lost

No need to apologise to me, it's totally fine. I hope you find the way forward. These things can be really hard, especially when we are right in the business of it. I think many of us here struggle with identifying and asking for what we need - if we haven't been nurtured, we haven't had care mirrored for us and it's hard to learn that once we have established our life pattern of not listening to our self. And asking is only the start for me because I am not sure how to receive, and on top of that, the risk of asking but not receiving feels like an unpleasant replay.

Something to remember is that up until here she has given you what you need and you have had a positive relationship with her. Those qualities still exist, even if they aren't prominent at the moment. Maybe if you can lay all of this out between you, she can help you sort out how to address it all. You don't have to go solo and then present her with the finished strategy for you to work through.