Wrong diagnosis over and over

I recently wrote a post because I have had 20 years of therapy and I'm not mentally ill but have some problems with relationships. I feel I need therapy for my therapy. I still have not found a good solution to all this. But I have learned some things since being here, and talking to others, and gaining support from friends.

I want to know what other people think about all this too. I have quite a few professional friends in my circle and I've noticed not only do therapists including the Phd's have the worst personal lives, but they make many diagnosis over an over because they treat by knowing the symptoms. They don't have a bloodtest they can do to confirm any of what they say(with the exception of brain scans in rare cases). That simply wouldn't be tolerated by the public if their doctor were to do that. I think it is a good thing to not have to do a bloodtest, intuition and education are wonderful tools. But I can't justify spending more money to wander aimlessly through the psyche community looking for someone who uses them properly.

I've absorbed their way and I think it's been really making my relationships worse! Of course try telling that to a therapist! They get defensive, and will actually tell me that I'm not ready for therapy. OMG that's so irritating. I've checked this out with many people and that simply is not the case. It wasn't till reading Dr. Grohol's articles that I learned that it is not uncommon to have to interview maybe 8 or 10 or more T's before finding the right fit. Why this isn't in a pamphlet in every T's office is beyond me. Instead I wrestled with my relationship to the world and my T's all on my own believing even more that it must be me! Then my gut had something totally different to say so I did research. I've gotten more help from that one fact from Dr. Grohol relating to the world than I did from the last 5 years of running into bad therapists!

Therapy has caused me to have " A Sense of Entitlement Without Responsibility" That's from an article written by Dr. Steven Stosny who I also admire in the Psychology Today Blogs. Too many T's in our country are so into the individual that they forget the important people in our lives have a side to the story also so they are quick to judge, diagnose, and say to their clients that they deserve much better than that and to let go of any relationship that does not serve you. That's a shame, because I have not only done that to people myself, believing that my friend finding radar was damaged by my upbringing(once again, no proof, only a guess) and I have had that done to me by every friend I've seen go through therapy. They start cleaning house!~ and out everyone goes ~ they throw the baby out with the bath water. We're not being taught to communicate at all! I don't think I've ever been shown that in 20 yrs. That's not teaching us to all get along, and in todays world we really need that as our world is changing, our government is unstable and we are becoming less group oriented, and more individualized. United we stand,divided we fall comes to mind here.

I have had some really good therapists, but only to the extent of protecting myself, but not protecting myself from being isolated on my own island of superiority as if that's going to fix anything. I'm wondering if anyone else is feeling the same way.

Hi, what helped me was taking my mental health into my own hands. I used therapists for insight into my issues but I did my own inventory of myself to find the issues that I wanted to work on and then used the feedback from my therapists to get the "normal" perspective (since I never learned normal while growing up!). So I found my issues, analyzed them and then solved them. It is basically self-understanding - Who am I? What do I need? Do my thoughts and actions help me or harm me? What do I need to do to problem solve this?

INteresting question. I think though its easier to think therapy does things to us, when we get better its we who have done the work internally. No one can really do things to us, I think perhaps the sense of entiletiment is already there within us hiding. Theres no way we can say this or that made me have this sense of entiltlement, its our responsiblity, for myself because of my upbringing I do have traits of Narcissim and that is common too feel we have entitlement without responsibity, its as I do the work in therapy that I learn other people have feelings just like I do..so I wouldn't say therapy makes me think this way...I have and do go through stages of feeling like that but the more I work in therapy and treat myself well so I see others want that too...before therapy I wasn't aware of my own emotions so didn't care or know about others....I think theres a lot of rubbish therapys and therapists out there...theres alot of sick therapists that haven't worked through their own narcissm so how can they possibly help someone else too?

oh:Narcissistic therapists, whatever next!

I think saying one hasn't worked through their own narcissim has a different meaning to how you have read my post????

For me the crux of therapy is to work through our undeveloped adult states. When this is done correctly we will no longer harbour feelings of "entitlement"? and a T that has done her own growing will model this. Hope that makes my post a little clearer, I mean we know about the type of therapist that hasn't done their own growing but feels they can fix others ???

I think Peg was just joking (sort of), not criticizing you, Mouse.

As to the original message, I too have found I have to do most of the work myself, and correct many of the messages that I feel that I got from the mental health "system". I do not yet know a reliable process for finding a really outstanding therapist. I am not looking for one now, but making do with what I have.

I think reading the posts here may well help in understanding what a good therapist is.

Jacqueline,

It is too bad that you have spent 20 years with this experience. I am in my second round of therapy now. My first therapy experience lasted about 4 years and I stopped seeing her when my youngest son was born 14 years ago. I have been seeing my current T for two years now.My therapy experiences have ranged from being good, and supportive to amazing (my current T). I have never been advised to get rid of anyone in any relationship. Neither T ever made a decision for me and, in fact, have helped me to understand that is my job, not theirs. I have never felt judged, or even diagnosed. My T and I never ever ever talk about my dx, except for the fact that my depression comes up when I am depressed (I tell him) and we have talked a little--and I mean a little--about ptsd.

Maybe another way to look at this is that you have spent these years learning to make these decisions for yourself. Now, that is good news!

Take care.

Wow, thanks for sharing this.
I agree about educating yourself about your issues that can mean the difference between overcoming an issue, to falling on your face in spite of efforts. Taking your health into your own hands and not simply being lead around by the collar, can make all the difference. People not only need to be educated about their own diagnosis they have been given (in mental health and in "physical" health), but to be an active participant in getting better.

Insight into the self grows as you learn about and work on improving yourself. A good therapist (sometimes it can take a few tries; never give up trying) can help a person have insight into themselves, and also an educated, empathetic "helper" to bounce their ideas about their problems and situation with. They can also provide us with some insight into ourselves if we happen to be lacking it at the moment.

Why do you think it wouldn't be tolerated?
There isn't a blood test for asthma either, yet physicians (even general practitioners) diagnose asthma without one all the time. Likewise, any psychologist with the skill, education, and empathy will be able to decide what the problem(s) the patient has, and be able to help their patient overcome the difficulties they have. They are also willing to change the diagnosis/add additional diagnosis, if at some point they learn that their initial diagnosis was perhaps inaccurate or lacking. They should also be able to refer to various healthcare providers of all stripes if they encounter a problem that they need a different specialist for, and to confer with their colleagues and/or supervisors if they encounter a difficult problem they need help with solving.
Without knowing the details, I can't say for sure if your perception is based on faulty perceptions, or if you had bad luck and ended up with bad therapists, or if it was merely a bad match with a therapists (personality's not cohesive to therapy maybe). It could be a combination of the above, but I don't know how many therapists you have gone to.

20 years is a long time to be in therapy and to have it all go wrong like you have. That stinks that you had to go through that !!! I'm glad though, that something you read gave you insight and was actually helpful in understanding your personal situation.
I would take into consideration that if you are talking about therapists you have seen recently, maybe the selection in your area is lacking in good, qualified therapists (Psy D. or PhD. in counseling/clinical psychology is recommended). I don't know enough about your experience with therapists to really say what went wrong, but I do know that a lot of people do have good therapists and end up healthier because of therapy. I'm just sorry that you had to go through that and that you haven't found a good therapist that can really help you overcome some of your personal difficulties. I always say--never give up.
I'm not able to generalize all T's by your description above. I don't think you should do that either, as generalizations are of no good whatsoever. Everyone needs to be treated with respect. If you find a T who is lacking in respect toward you, or in clinical skills--- leave that T in the dust, and depending on the offense, report the T to the board.

Parents have the primary responsibility for bringing up healthy, happy, functional children. All too often, the parents fail miserably at being appropriate parents. Sometimes it is out of ignorance because they weren't taught and/or didn't learn how to be an appropriate parent before they became one, and/or because they have personal problems that they didn't/aren't dealing with effectivley and commit all sorts of heinous and abusive acts against their children.

I can't blame the government for problems that started with my parents, and in all actuality, started with my parents' parent's and even to the generation beyond that. It really is... a cycle. Good parents will not teach their children to have a sense of entitlement. Unfortunately, the world we live in is very much a consumer oriented culture (at least in the developed world, like the US, Canada, and the UK for example), and parents really have to be stable themselves with a good sense of self in order to prevent their children from falling for the narcissistic urges of our consumerism and status symbol oriented culture. We are not what we wear, but if parents don't know this themselves, they will have a hard time teaching their children to behave differently, considering the tide we are up against.

You have a good deal of insight, in spite of your past with therapy. That said, I think you'll be able to quell any feelings of superiority that you may be having that interfere with your life. Maybe you don't need therapy right now--I don't really know enough to know if it's something that would be beneficial to you. Thanks for your post. It's actually really interesting to think about.

jacqueline, I am sorry therapy has not been helpful to you for the last 20 years. You are to be commended for not giving up easily!

Many people are helped by therapy, and I am happy to be one of them. I have had two therapists. The first for about 9 months. She was somewhat helpful and I made some progress with her and then reached the end of her ability to help, so I quit. She was not damaging at all, and I still think of her fondly. I've been seeing my current therapist for almost 2 years. He is amazing! Therapy with him has been so helpful and healing. Sometimes I just sit and think how lucky it is that I found this guy.

It sounds like you are really concerned with getting a diagnosis that you feel is right. Maybe getting a diagnosis need not be so important. My therapist and I never talk about a diagnosis and he has never given me one. That has not impeded our progress at all. Instead, we work on the problems that need to be solved, using his many skills and tools. He has mentioned PTSD a couple of times, but we don't dwell on this, and sometimes we do therapy to help with trauma. If he thinks there are other things wrong with me, he doesn't share this and I don't ask. We just work on healing, becoming differentiated, communicating better, etc.

What is "their way"? I think many therapists are outstanding at forming relationships--that's kind of what therapy is all about. (Of course, as in any profession, some are more talented/skilled than others.) My relationships have improved so much since beginning therapy. I have learned to model my therapist's behavior out there in real life. My relationships with friends, family, and colleagues have all improved. This wasn't why I went to therapy, so this benefit has been a great surprise for me!

Neither of my T's ever counseled me to give up on a relationship. My current T has encouraged me to hang in there when I am willing to give up too easily. It's so much easier to turn your back and run, but I'm learning not to do that. My T has never judged and diagnosed either. He lets me tell my story, and listens with empathy.

That is not true in my therapy. Communication is such a key skill and my T has worked on this with me, as well as with me and my H when we were doing couples therapy. It's the first thing we worked on!

jacqueline, if you are especially interested in working on communication, there may be another way besides therapy. I have taken some courses in Non-violent Communication (aka Compassionate Communication). This method is based on the book Non-Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. Here is the link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220575720&sr=1-1
I have come across some really good ideas there and started to build some skills. I want to learn more and take more courses--takes practice. Maybe you could sign up for a course and see if you find it helpful. Here is a link to the NVC website, which may be able to help you find NVC trainings in your area:
http://www.cnvc.org/

Best of luck to you, jacqueline.

I can't add anything to the depth of the posters above, but in the last 2 years since I had an overdose & I've been really unstable mood-wise (bipolar 1)--doing med changes but also doing therapy. Well, one therapist "flunked" me as I was making no progress (true) & then I "fired" 3 more due to major & minor reasons--all the way from I found a typo in her resume to one who thought I should not be on any meds for bipolar as they "blunted" my emotions & made therapy more difficult (all I could say is "BLUNT ME, PLEASE!")

Then there was the one who wanted me to sign the consent to confer with my meds provider (I've been with her 10 years & she is my rock) & I realized that I trusted my meds provider with a lot more personal info. than I was revealing to the therapist so that relationship after 6 weeks was a "no go."

Now I see my DBT group leader in a week for indiv. therapy. I'm hopeful.--Suzy

Actually I NEED those diagnosis numbers on the forms for insurance purposes & the docs/therapists have expressed to me that they have to put down a number & that that does not necissarily correspond with my case but it is the closest she could find OR WANTED TO REVEAL TO THE INS. CO..--Suzy

Same here, but I'm stuck on something and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is. That's the only reason I go to therapy is to find my blindspots. So I figured for so long that my blindspot has something to do with me running into bad therapists for so long, and bad relationships that it must be me. 20 yrs of this, I'm finding out differently on so many levels. I'm having to sort through not only my own issues with picking and keeping friends, picking and keeping a T, and all the problems with the industry on top of that. I need therapy for my therapy...

Thanks for your post, but I disagree. T's are like going to school and if you believe their teachings then you do create change for better or worse. The problem is when you are there to learn who to trust from someone you shouldn't trust.

It's very easy to make a client, who is looking to learn from who they think is the healthiest choice, to believe that they don't need to put up with this or that, or that they have a sickness and need to learn to keep letting go, when in fact, what they need is to find someone to help them communicate and distinguish what to put up with and what not too.

Dear Simcha

Whew! Ok let me try to respond to all that, first of all, my smilies aren't working(could that be a Mac thing?) so don't think I'm so dry! lol

I have been in and out of therapy for 20 years, not consistently. So I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. Some good, some quite helpful but they all kind of say the same things in the same way. I think sometimes either all they hang out with is each other within their own communities, or they don't have the same experiences and interests as I do. I don't know but it seems as though they want my standards to be higher. Good! But we live in the real world, and I did do that very well, thank you, but I'm not a conservative type. So I never really found the commonalities and never really fit in with the typical crowd. So on my quest to find true friends I got lost somewhere.

Sometimes T's thought "What can I do" meant "what can I do to change people?" when I meant "what can I do to learn from this, communicate etc," I got treated for things like low self-esteem and it probably caused me to question my own self esteem and work on it and try to do better and better feeling like maybe I didn't know what self-esteem was. It was weird. what I would have liked them to do, was not be so quick to diagnose, and help me rephrase the question. Sometimes it was complacency answers like "their just is nothing you can do" trying to teach me more acceptance when I should have been exploring options and learning communication skills. Sometimes it was telling me I'm doing everything right, thinking I needed a pat on the back when what I really needed was not to feel hopeless but to communicate to my kids. Well meaning t's can be frustrating too.

I got kind of lost when you were talking about our parents and the government. I hope you didn't think I meant that the government was to blame, I was just saying in this day and age, we need more families, and groups of friends. We were meant to live in tribes, not as singles. I live in NY so I'm around more than enough t's and every T I've known personally has the worst personal life. I almost wrote what I've seen these Phd's of psychology do and I've decided against it. I've known about 5 or 6 that need rehab. I met one at an art opening , I had to go to the police about because he stalked me, and it was aggravated harassment. This guy is on tv. My social life is spent with doctors and lawyers, and it's very depressing to see them in real life and know that they are professors and highly regarded. But that is like a lot of people in authority, they are no different as much as we would like them to be. I think pamphlets should be in every office about the information Dr Grohol writes about. No one should go in blindly with $100+ just to interview a T. and continue to meet every week until they find out they had no idea what they were talking about.

I know that good people exist. I've had good t's I trust, they are trying to be helpful. But like Dr Stosny and Dr Grohol say sometimes you just have to go through 10 or so. I can only handle trying out a few a year. Even after I narrow it down, i usually go a few sessions, and the aftereffects of sorting the whole experience out by myself again are just too much. Not to mention the money. Some won't even let you meet them without $200! It's not the same as finding an MD. The failure rate seems kind of high, and considering that they all adhere to pretty much the same ideologies it seems sort of pointless to continue until I find someone different. I am waiting to hear back from both Dr Stosny and Dr Grohol but I don't know that I will. It's not that I'm so sick, I'm actually very mentally and emotionally healthy. I am pretty happy and successful without therapy, but I am in need of something specific that really isn't being addressed and now that I've heard that these are common problems I'm not as upset. But still hoping to find someone who can really bring this full circle for me and continue on in a positive direction.

Thank you so much for your heartfelt post. I am really touched by it. <3

Thanks so much for understanding! Some really great t's are there, but when you get messages that are like you said "from the mental health system" sometimes it is overwhelming because it is everywhere, even when it's wrong. So in my case, it adds to the isolation. I have a friend who is happy to have pretty much anybody to listen to him on a weekly basis. I want more than that. People assume I pretty much know what is going on, my T's overlook that I'm clueless at times because of my upbringing, at the same time acknowledge my childhood has left me without certain skills. Their solution is to keep talking about my mother. Yikes! It's been 20yrs, just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean every problem is a nail. :-)

I think each individual T should be responsible for providing much more information about their position on things, their techniques and I don't know what else, because I'm not behind the curtain with them. They don't advertise like Life Coaches. You pretty much know what you are getting when you read the website. You can shop around for personality fit. One person said their is not enough info on the things they were looking for in the Search For Therapist section and I have to agree. They all read the same. Much love to you. Thanks again.

Miss Charlotte,
thanks so much that was sooo sweet!! True that I have grown from this in it's own way the path out of therapy has been in it's own way therapeutic for me.

I think I probably pick T's that are a little more out spoken because I prefer that to the "turn it around" "what do you think" type of therapy all the time. Maybe I just need a good class on friendships and relationships. Sometimes I feel as if it's just me and everyone gets it, yet I don't know who is getting along these days. Seems as if lots of people aren't getting along. So it's not just me. The problem is that I don't know what the problem is. They don't either, they guess at it. I've had nothing conclusive. If you read Dr Stosny's blog in Psychology Today you'll see what I mean. It's a common problem therapists have. Keep pointing the finger at the other person, not your client, until your client feels strong enough to let go and unsupported enough not to be able to hang on and then say things like "why do you feel you have to explain yourself" when they really should be helping the client communicate with the important people in their life. I'm so glad you have had better luck with therapy. Maybe this all comes back to why do I pick the people I do? Well, my childhood was lacking somehow, but no one will tell me how. What was the mystery skill(s) they keep mentioning. I have to keep coming back to therapy to find out. So does it also say something about the T's that I pick? Is their ever really an answer? And if their is, how do I find it if I don't have those skills?

I have to laugh, this is a riot!

Sunrise
I'm glad you have had an easy time finding someone to help you but you are the exception. I'm wasn't saying all therapists are bad, but it's been a while since I've had a good one. The other ones who don't get what I'm saying are guessing at what's going on for me, making me believe that if I endure their treatment I will be better, and then I start to see that they are only taking my money and don't really know what they can do for me, they start making me guess at what I should do and and it's too confusing for me to sort out by myself now and I'm left with more conflicting info and a trust issue I hadn't had before. So my question is who do I go to now?

You have written me before and if you read the articles I referred to by Dr Grohol an Dr Stosny you will know what I am talking about. I also wrote a lot more in this thread that should give you a better idea of what I am talking about.

Thanks for listening.

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what it is your meaning, my fault I apologisse. I dont seem to understand what is not working for you, I read it one way but perhaps I'm not "seeing" it as you mean it. I guess I am lucky in that therapy has helped me in the areas you are struggling with that is what is blinding me to your issues. I hope you find whatever it is you need to help you move forward.

Best wishes.

Patchy, I wonder why you feel the need to clear up other peoples misunderstandings? you've done this more than once and it does irritate me, when its nothing to do with you what so ever. (said with love)

I plead guilty. I do do that, and apparently need to do that. I think I feel that I need a protector, and when I see people whom I like making what I think are mistakes, I have to "correct" them so they will be able to save me. I have done this for a long time and thought I was mostly over it. I guess not.

Ahem, I didn't mean to cause an argument and I'm sorry to have caused any upset here.

My comment of, 'Narcissistic therapists, whatever next!' was meant in jest but with some meaning. Now, I could write an essay on that, but I'm not going to do that here as it would be viewed as hyjacking the thread.

Thanks Simcha! Empowerment is what we speak of. When you grab that, half of your mental health just improved....

Hi Jacqueline, one thing that helped me was being around good role models for communication and relationships. Sounds like you haven't found any yet? I lived in a few places. Some have been impersonal and others very personal. The culture really is different in these places.

I agree, continuing to talk about your mom isn't going to change anything for you. You need action.

One of the skills that I had to learn were personal boundaries (what is appropriate behavior between people). I also found with myself that I purposely kept people back in order to protect myself. What was I protecting myself from? My low self-worth (I didn't want others to see who I really was). So I had to work on that. I had to understand where it came from.

You mention that you are unable to communicate with the important people in your life. This would be a good place to start. When these things are analyzed all sorts of good info comes out.

thanks sweetie, all the best! <3 <3 thanks for the validation!

Well that's what I thought, but I was really hurt by a T when she said I need to spend less time talking about today and more time talking about my mother. That was just outright wrong to say. Then the next T said things that presented red flags for me, I won't go into them unless you are interested, but when I politely explained this to him, he got defensive and told me his clients are rich and famous that has nothing to do with anything here, so needless to say I quit him too. He is a phd and highly regarded.

I could always use more and better communication skills, but I don't think they are the kind I'm going to find in a book. I deal with artists, like I said, and sometimes they can be kind of funny about too much analyzing or discussing issues, even the nicest ones. I think I'm conflicted by the boundaries my T has taught me, and the world I live in and how and where do I fit into this picture.

Any thoughts?