[hangingon]

After reading so much on here about boundaries. About what a T will and will not allow. Whether you can email, call, be touched, ect...I'm surprised that these boundaries are not clear and up front.

I am on my second T and neither of them told me what I could and couldn't do, what they allowed and didn't allow, up front. One did say I could call, that was that. I never asked her about emailing ect.

Since its so hard to be vulerable, and gosh darn't therapist KNOW this, why don't they spell these things out up front? Why leave client's guessing? If I had all this presented up front It would be settled in my head. These are the rules and thats that, and I could make my decision whether or not this may be the right T for me.

But no, we have to go feel it out, try and get the nerve to ask, and perhaps find out later that the one thing we needed is not offered by this T. Or even worse be left feeling totally rejected when finally getting the nerve to ask and then being told NO...

What is the big deal with T stating this info up front? I think all should be required, even if its in the form of a paper they hand out after the first session.

No....I haven't been rejected by a T yet in that sense because I just don't have the dang nerve to ask. Do I have burning questions? Yes, it would be less stressful if I just knew the info up front. No guessing games, T's don't like having to guess, they want us to be open with them, so why can't they do it in the same regard?

Ok just my thoughts because I see how difficult it is for people to ask, only to be left wondering.

Hangingon

When I needed to know, I asked. It was hard, but it was easier than not knowing.

I dont think they can answer up front because I think for most it's a case by case deal. They need to get to know you, and know themselves in their reaction to you.
Some simply have a "no touch" policy but it would be quite awkward to say "By the way, in here, no touch between us". That would create a battle in itself. No touch, ever? No hand shake? No pat on the back? No hug? No holding? What is "no touch". It would be just as difficult to come to grips with that, I'd think, as having to ask "may I have..."

[sittingatwatersedge]

StormyAngel has a good point - maybe the "rules" are not all that set - the T needs to know you and what is the best thing for you - I am happy to go with that reading.

that, and also there is so much to cover, right at the start, about this strange and very complex relationshipm, maybe some of the "housekeeping" stuff gets missed sometimes. Perhaps some Ts have a method that covers everything, I don;t know, a handout or something?

My T's voicemail recording says, if thsi is an emergency, hang up and call 911 or go to an ER - i guess if were having an emergency I wouldn't even have thought of that...

still, it would be great if they could read our minds. Sure would save us a lot of trouble wouldn't it.... no wait a second!!

[searchingmysoul]

(((((((hanginon)))))))

I think except for things that are fairly obvious, such as not assaulting your T or vice versa, other boundaries get negotiated over time...

I think for those of us who had lots of boundaries or maybe no boundaries it is important to know where the boundaries are. When we don't know we get scared or confused. It is okay to ask for clear boundaries. I have found though through my relationship with T, that the very clear boundaries come from me....Her's are pretty flexible. And, interestingly, the boundaries in our relationship have changed over time.

Your T sounds very reasonable and caring. She would probably welcome you asking for what it is you need specifically.

~Searching

[phoenix7]

oh I wish it were so, heres a list of what you can and cant do and at the bottom it could say

I will not judge you
I will try to hear what you say as well as just listen to you
I will never laugh at you - only with you
I will help you to help yourself find a way out of this maze and back to a better life
I will not leave you alone in the darkness
I will never make you feel like you crawled out from under a rock
I will be there as long as you need me ( I know, I know, dreaming again)
I will not look at you as if you just came in from the funny farm'
I will not get you a hug me jacket when you seem really really crazy LOL

and from us

I will be honest and open even though it hurts so much
I will write down and give to you the words i cannot say
I will let you know if i think i am stuck or in trouble
I will go crazy over whether to buy you a christmas card/present
I will second guess everything over and over again until I am ready for the funny farm LOL but true!

[Gracey]

Originally Posted by hangingon

After reading so much on here about boundaries. About what a T will and will not allow. Whether you can email, call, be touched, ect...I'm surprised that these boundaries are not clear and up front.

I am on my second T and neither of them told me what I could and couldn't do, what they allowed and didn't allow, up front. One did say I could call, that was that. I never asked her about emailing ect.

Since its so hard to be vulerable, and gosh darn't therapist KNOW this, why don't they spell these things out up front? Why leave client's guessing? If I had all this presented up front It would be settled in my head. These are the rules and thats that, and I could make my decision whether or not this may be the right T for me.

But no, we have to go feel it out, try and get the nerve to ask, and perhaps find out later that the one thing we needed is not offered by this T. Or even worse be left feeling totally rejected when finally getting the nerve to ask and then being told NO...

What is the big deal with T stating this info up front? I think all should be required, even if its in the form of a paper they hand out after the first session.

No....I haven't been rejected by a T yet in that sense because I just don't have the dang nerve to ask. Do I have burning questions? Yes, it would be less stressful if I just knew the info up front. No guessing games, T's don't like having to guess, they want us to be open with them, so why can't they do it in the same regard?

Ok just my thoughts because I see how difficult it is for people to ask, only to be left wondering.

Hangingon

I guess I look at it from this perspective. The T is not there to tell you what to do - ever. They are there to help you learn to make those choices on your own, and part of waiting for YOU to ask about these things is indeed the beginning of that process. WHY would you want to hug your T? Cuddle your T? Etc. Do you email your grocer or garbage man. . .or anyone else who provides a service to you for payment? Therapists aren't your friends. They are paid (by someone) to listen to us, help us discover better and more profitable ways of living life.

[phoenix7]

but it would be so much easier for us if we knew the rules ......

[gimmeice]

Originally Posted by stormyangels

I dont think they can answer up front because I think for most it's a case by case deal. They need to get to know you, and know themselves in their reaction to you.
Some simply have a "no touch" policy but it would be quite awkward to say "By the way, in here, no touch between us". That would create a battle in itself. No touch, ever? No hand shake? No pat on the back? No hug? No holding? What is "no touch". It would be just as difficult to come to grips with that, I'd think, as having to ask "may I have..."

I agree with this summary, that a T probably needs to know what your needs and issues are before setting limitations. I have asked my T for very clear boundaries, she refuses to give me a list of things that are unacceptable except the basic things like no causing physical harm to her. She says that I have a good sense of natural boundaries and that if I crossed any lines then we would work through it at that point. My advice is when you have a question then you should ask, I think it is a part of the therapy process or at least that is my experience.

[deliquesce]

i think, as someone pointed out earlier, the 'rules' are something that are negotiated between each client and therapist, over time. e.g., my pdoc recently gave me his mobile number, so i could contact him whilst on leave. i have been seeing him for 4 years now, but it was only last month that he gave me his number. this is obviously because he's comfortable enough in the relationship to know i won't abuse the service, and also because he knows he's comfortable enough to let me 'impose' upon his holiday if i am in distress. he told me not every client of his gets his mobile, because there are some clients that he would rather not hear from (lol).

my pdoc (god bless him) is also, horribly, computer illiterate. watching him trying to type (with two fingers, slowly, slowly) is painful. i don't think it would ever occur to him to give out his email address to anyone, and that is partly why he wouldn't mention it should "the rules" need to be set out at the beginning of therapy.

i think boundaries are best left flexible. if he had told me at the beginning of therapy that there were to be no phone calls between sessions, then i would never have been given his mobile number, and i would be in a really bad position today (i did call him last week, to help keep me out of hospital).

so whilst, yes, it would save us a good deal of grief, i think opportunities would be lost also, because of it. i prefer this system.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

and from us

I will be honest and open even though it hurts so much

I read somewhere that it;s not important to be honest with T, at least at first; the important thing is to want to be honest; the being honest with T will come later on. I didn't believe it at the time, but I do now...

[Brian37]

imagine going on a first date with someone and handing them a list of boundaries...think you'll get a second date?

imagine going to a job interview and handing the person your list of boundaries...think you'll get the job?

[MissCharlotte]

((Hanginon))

I think that what everyone here said is probably accurate but I AM SO THERE WITH YOU!!!! It is so freaking frustrating when I don't know the rules/boundaries. I know this is a younger part of me that never grew up....It's like when we play board games at home I make sure I know the rules and just abide by them. It makes things so much easier.

Take care.

[MissCharlotte]

Brian,

imagine going to a job interview and handing the person your list of boundaries...think you'll get the job?

Imagine accepting a job without knowing the salary....would you do thaT?

[sittingatwatersedge]

>>> .It's like when we play board games at home I make sure I know the rules and just abide by them. It makes things so much easier.

Oh we always make up additional "house rules" and play by those. it makes guests crazy

[SpottedOwl]

(((hangingon)))

I think of the therapy room as a rehearsal for 'real life'. It is a safe place that I can try out new things, and then once I have built confidence in the room, it translates out to the rest of my life.

Yes, in a way it would be wonderful to have hard and fast rules about therapy, but then again life is just not that simple.

I trust that my T has boundaries in place, and the real issue is that *I* needed to figure out what *my* needs were and learn how to ask for them. If I am able to care for myself, then no matter what situation I encounter I will have the tools I need.

I would encourage you to talk with T about this. I know it can be scary, but this is the point of therapy -- to have a safe place to deal with scary stuff.

I think some Ts can have set rules like: I will never touch a patient. I will not allow phone calls between sessions.

Most Ts (I think) are not that strict. I hope not. Anyway, for those therapists who don't have their own set of prescribed rules, it varies by patient.

There are some patients in which occasional touch is an important part of the therapy-- there are other patients whom a therapist might feel as though touch is a really bad idea.

Some patients might really abuse the phone calls in between sessions-- so the T might have to set a boundary.

I get worried that I am overstepping boundaries if there comes a week in which I contact T frequently by phone. I tell him about this worry and he always says, "Don't worry. It's my job to make those decisions, and I would always let you know if it got too much."

Ahhh, takes a little bit of the pressure off of me.

Boundaries are an important part of therapy, of course. But they will change with each patient, and they with change for each patient within the course of therapy, depending on what is going on in the relationship.

Originally Posted by pinksoil

I get worried that I am overstepping boundaries if there comes a week in which I contact T frequently by phone. I tell him about this worry and he always says, "Don't worry. It's my job to make those decisions, and I would always let you know if it got too much."

Ahhh, takes a little bit of the pressure off of me.

T made it clear at the beginning of therapy that he has "very good boundaries" and I just decided to trust that and believe that he will make sure that boundaries are in place and honored.

He was clearly horrified and angered by the boundary crossings of my first "counselor", and his reaction to that made me trust him a little more.

I do tell him sometimes that I am scared I will cross a boundary by mistake, and he promises me that it is something we would talk about and it would be okay, just something to learn from. So far that hasn't happened.

[hangingon]

I guess I am just always worried that I am going to do something that I shouldn't be.

With my last T I only called her twice, once when my mom died. Then one other time when I was having it really rough, she called back within 20 minutes and I said I was fine, it wasn't true. She said she would call me back later in the evening to check in, and again I said I was fine.....I just didn't know what the say......it's just too awkward for me, that and worrying that I am bothering her.

So now with my new T the same thing. She says that I can email or call her, I was quite happy with emailing, seeing I don't do well with phone calls. She told me that calls would get better in time, well after seeing my first T for about a year, I never got use to the phone with her.

I guess I should just trust and believe when my T tells me its fine. I try to understand why I have a hard time with this. I think it's because I relate to myself and my thoughts in these areas. For instance even though I don't want to do something I will do it so as not to hurt the other person's feelings. In my mind I feel like that is what my T is doing with me and I don't want her to feel that way.

I just like rules lol....maybe I'm just too structured a person. If you give me rules, I take them for face value and won't try to maniupulate them. If you don't give me rules, I will walk on eggs shells always wondering if I am overstepping my bounds.....if that makes sense. I hate that feeling.

Hangingon

Originally Posted by hangingon

I just like rules lol....maybe I'm just too structured a person. If you give me rules, I take them for face value and won't try to maniupulate them. If you don't give me rules, I will walk on eggs shells always wondering if I am overstepping my bounds.....if that makes sense. I hate that feeling.

Hangingon

Hey, I totally understand that. It reminds me of one of the many turning points in my therapy. I don't really like the word 'manipulate' because I think it tends to sound like you are doing something on purpose... what many people might see as manipulation, I see as not knowing/understanding how to ask for what you need-- and going about it in a roundabout way that is sometimes damaging or unfair to others.

But anyway-- sometimes you have to let these things happen in order for the boundaries to become clear. In my own example, I left a message for T and told him that I had self-injured (a common thing for me because, at the time, I thought I had to have some crisis reason to call him). I also told him on the phone, "It doesn't matter if you call back or not." So he didn't. Then I gave him a lot of crap when he didn't call back. He clearly said to me, "Stop with the ambiguity. If you need or want something for me, just ask for it. If you tell me you need me to call back, then I will."

Ok then. Boundary set. Thanks, T.

And it worked.

[hangingon]

Thanks Pink

I suppose I just have to let things happen as they may. I did send an email to my T the other night after session. I ended it with no need to respond. Of course I would have liked her to lol, but it was ok if she didn't, she did end up responding anyways. The email thing is so much easier but I am also at the point of thinking maybe I bother her with that to, so maybe I should stop sending them. I send one a week and its always right after my session with her.

I agree manipulation was not the best choice of word. Often people really don't know what they want, or how to express it, so I can see testing those boundaries without really realizing it.

I am so good at not saying what I want or need. I really think I must stress my T out, especially my last one because she just couldn't read me and I hardley ever, ever, told her what I wanted or needed. I just showed up every week and talked about whatever. Sometimes I was just all over the place.

The crazy thing is, for the most part, I do know some of what I would like, or perhaps need, I just can't get the nerve up to ask due to fear of rejection and fear of possible attachment. I just can't win lol.....
I've been on my own too dang long.....

Hangingon

[deliquesce]

oh, i'm the same with emails being ok but phone calls being weird, hangingon. but like you, i eventually stopped the emails because i started to worry about that also.

my pdoc gave me his mobile number before he went on leave. unfortunately i had to use it - my gp kind of gave me an ultimatum that involved hospitalisation otherwise. i told my pdoc not to worry about calling back (i sent him a txt - he'd told me this was the best way to get him) but he called back anyway. he also said we should talk again at least once more before he returned to work. he told me to send him another txt when i was free to chat. but i don't think i will? i'm worried about if i get him at an inconvenient time, or that i'm not doing that bad now anyway, or whatever. i hope he calls me, but i'll be ok if he forgets.

[phoenix7]

Originally Posted by hangingon

I guess I am just always worried that I am going to do something that I shouldn't be.

With my last T I only called her twice, once when my mom died. Then one other time when I was having it really rough, she called back within 20 minutes and I said I was fine, it wasn't true. She said she would call me back later in the evening to check in, and again I said I was fine.....I just didn't know what the say......it's just too awkward for me, that and worrying that I am bothering her.

oh I so hear that - were you taught that you were bothering people when you were small - is this ia life lesson to be unlearned - i know it is for me

For instance even though I don't want to do something I will do it so as not to hurt the other person's feelings. In my mind I feel like that is what my T is doing with me and I don't want her to feel that way.
protecting your T but not yourself, helping others but not yourself...
you are not alone in this.

I just like rules lol....maybe I'm just too structured a person. If you give me rules, I take them for face value and won't try to maniupulate them. If you don't give me rules, I will walk on eggs shells always wondering if I am overstepping my bounds.....if that makes sense. I hate that feeling.

Hangingon

the egg shell thing - i hate it too - its sooo frustrating ! - i walked on eggshells as a child and im repeating the pattern now - I read a book by Albert Ellis once - a guide to rational living - ok I half read it! but he said, and not a direct quote, that people tend to dwell on the awfulness of a situation - for example if we overstep a boundary - learn from it and move on - sounds sooooooo easy doesnt it!

take care P7( and I've decided not to worry about the rules...I'm still trying to find out what the name of the game is!!! LOL)

[sunrise]

It is so hard to not know all the "rules" because I don't want to step on my T's boundaries. I want to be respectful. But part of my therapy is learning to ask for what I need. Learning to ask what a person's boundaries are isn't a bad skill to have either. My T did give out his informed consent sheet on my first day, and this listed some basic policies, such as his phone number to call and that it would go to voice mail and he would return the call when he could. Also, that he requires 24 hour notice on cancellations or the client will be charged. And that he likes payment at the beginning of the session not at the end. So he did give some basic "rules."

All else was left to develop between us. If I needed to know, I could always ask. There was never a boundary that I wasn't allowed to ask questions! It has been hard sometimes, as my T is terrible about returning phone calls, and when he doesn't, it does not feel good! It makes me feel like I stepped on a boundary when he doesn't call me back, but really, it is just oversight on his part or disorganization. It is hard to keep that in mind, though, when the days pass and he doesn't return a call. I only phone him to change appointment times and such, not for therapy or support. He works hard when I am with him in session, and I don't expect him to provide phone support whenever I think I need it. I did phone him one time after a very hard session, because he had been so upset and stern with me and I was afraid he was going to call CPS. He did call back the same day on that. There have been a couple of emergency times, and he called me to check on me when he got wind of what was happening in my life, but I did not initiate those calls. I felt very cared for when I received those calls. One time he even said, "why didn't you call me?" I was not able to answer honestly then, that "I didn't call you because I would get your voice mail and then you wouldn't call back for 3 days, if ever, so why bother?" I know him better now so maybe I would be courageous enough to say that if the situation arose again.

After we'd been together for a while, he did give me his cell phone number, rather than just his office phone/voice mail. I think he knew me well enough by then to know I wouldn't abuse this privilege. Although he hasn't said this, I tend to doubt he would give out his cell phone number to a client who wanted phone support all the time and was always trying to call him. I don't use his cell phone anymore now, as he got a forwarding system that forwards calls incoming to his office to his cell phone. Also, he didn't give me his email until we'd been together for 9 months, and he has asked me to use this preferentially over the phone to communicate with him (to change appointment times, etc.). There have been several times when we had substantive, issue-based email exchanges but these are not common. I don't write him long emails containing material that we should be going over face to face in therapy. Beyond those being a drain on his time, I think there can be a lot of misunderstandings by email so it is better to have important exchanges in person, if possible. I somewhat model my emails to him on his to me. He keeps his brief, and I try to follow his lead on that. I really try to be very respectful.

The one boundary I specifically remember asking him about was if I could send him a text message. We were ending a session and trying to schedule our next appointment and I had left my appointment book in my car. He gave me several open slots to choose from. I asked him if I could go to my car and text him (at his cell phone) which slot I wanted (I knew if I phoned him at his office voice mail with that information, he would not listen to the message for some time, and some of those slots would likely get filled.). He was thoughtful for a moment, and then said "no." So I asked about a boundary and he answered very clearly. I guess it was a bit of a rejection, but I was very glad to have this clearly established. It was good for me to experience this "rejection" and see that it was not the end of the world.

We all seem to have much to say on this topic. Therapist boundaries are a great topic for therapy too. The client learns to ask, experience rejection or satisfaction, and still survive. Being able to ask and get a clear answer can be valuable, no matter what the answer.